Tua vs Mac vs Wilson

[Hunter2_1]

Paint of course knows this, half his forum remind him of it every GDT. But he's still clinging on. 

Mac's got some credit in the bank yet.

[NJerseypaint]

3 minutes ago, Hunter2_1 said:

Whataboutery

And on topic.

 

1 minute ago, lancerman said:

But that’s misleading.  It’s more like this…..

Jones: very mediocre 

Wilson: burn it with fire bad 

The Jets would have won yesterday if Wilson played as mediocre Mac Jones. The Patriots won almost entirely because Wilson is that awful. And I’d say he deserved the game ball from Belichick but he’d probably throw it right back to McCourty 

If we are going with a hypothetical - The Jets would have won yesterday if Mac's pick 6 stood. Mac played as bad as Zach did yesterday and if that's the game we are using for these comparisons they are both clipboard holders. Tua is the only one in this thread that's coming out as an NFL QB.

[AFlaccoSeagulls]

2 minutes ago, NJerseypaint said:

 if that's the game we are using for these comparisons they are both clipboard holders. Tua is the only one in this thread that's coming out as an NFL QB.

As a neutral observer here, I don't think anyone is using that single game as a basis for the comparison. Zach Wilson's career has shown nothing. At least Mac has shown the ability to play at an average level for a somewhat sustained period of time.

Zach Wilson shouldn't be in the NFL. I don't know how anyone can even argue this at this point or try to say "WELL WHATABOUT THAT GUY?!". Wilson sucks. He's awful. Mac Jones is having a few bad games after having a solid rookie season. It's not comparable at all.

[lancerman]

5 minutes ago, NJerseypaint said:

And on topic.

 

If we are going with a hypothetical - The Jets would have won yesterday if Mac's pick 6 stood. Mac played as bad as Zach did yesterday and if that's the game we are using for these comparisons they are both clipboard holders. Tua is the only one in this thread that's coming out as an NFL QB.

If he are going off hypotheticals, the Jets were still up by 4. If that pick six cost you the game, it’s because the team is mentally weak and didn’t deserve to win. Also the truth of the matter is, while the refs could have let the RTP go, it was a very valid call to make. There are so many light ticky tack ones that one where the guy dived at his back after the ball was thrown is not one you can legitimately argue wasn’t a call to make on the refs part. So again you can blame your team and player on that because they opened the door to it via their own mistakes. 
 

The fact is if Wilson played as mediocre as Jones did, that was a winnable game for the Jets. The Jets QB was exceptionally bad and did everything in his power to not win that game 

[seminoles1]

Yesterday was only the 2nd time I thought Tua actually looked good, with the first time being a single quarter against the Ravens. Of course that quarter was arguably the greatest ever, so it holds some extra weight.

I'm still not a huge Tua believer, but he's still playing better than the other 2.

[biggie.]

Mac Jones made the Pro Bowl and reached the playoffs his rookie season. He has been disappointing this season, but there's hope for him. We in Pats Land are not expecting him to be Allen/Mahomes but he can be a solid starter for us in the long run.

Wilson has done nothing except be a liability. He and Lance are big cautionary tales of when you ONLY consider "physical tools".

Edited October 31, 2022 by biggie.

[NJerseypaint]

3 minutes ago, AFlaccoSeagulls said:

As a neutral observer here, I don't think anyone is using that single game as a basis for the comparison. Zach Wilson's career has shown nothing. At least Mac has shown the ability to play at an average level for a somewhat sustained period of time.

Zach Wilson shouldn't be in the NFL. I don't know how anyone can even argue this at this point or try to say "WELL WHATABOUT THAT GUY?!". Wilson sucks. He's awful. Mac Jones is having a few bad games after having a solid rookie season. It's not comparable at all.

It's just a coincidence two Pats fans post about Zach, and only Zach, after beating the Jets yesterday and Zach having a meltdown in the second half?

I'm well aware of Zach's resume and I get why no one gives him any credit. But I'm also probably the only one in this discussion watching his every snap. There is something about his arm talent that I can't give up on. The only terrible defense he's played this year he was able to muster a game-winning drive for us. The rest we were able to lean on Breece Hall against the #1 and #2 pass defenses. I'm not closing the door because his was shook by BB. As I see it, this was his first real game of the year where he should have thrown for 300 yards except he also sunk himself with 3 terrible INTs - something I thought he finally shook. He's got two more weeks of tough games, so it's gonna be a while until this narrative is due to change. But I'm not gonna ever hope to start White or Flacco, that's a total waste.

But when it comes to Mac, his weakness isn't something you can hope will change. You can't just make more arm strength and athleticism, and for all the talk about his decision making last year, he's taken a 180 this year, and that's all he has.

[lancerman]

Just now, NJerseypaint said:

It's just a coincidence two Pats fans post about Zach, and only Zach, after beating the Jets yesterday and Zach having a meltdown in the second half?

I'm well aware of Zach's resume and I get why no one gives him any credit. But I'm also probably the only one in this discussion watching his every snap. There is something about his arm talent that I can't give up on. The only terrible defense he's played this year he was able to muster a game-winning drive for us. The rest we were able to lean on Breece Hall against the #1 and #2 pass defenses. I'm not closing the door because his was shook by BB. As I see it, this was his first real game of the year where he should have thrown for 300 yards except he also sunk himself with 3 terrible INTs - something I thought he finally shook. He's got two more weeks of tough games, so it's gonna be a while until this narrative is due to change. But I'm not gonna ever hope to start White or Flacco, that's a total waste.

But when it comes to Mac, his weakness isn't something you can hope will change. You can't just make more arm strength and athleticism, and for all the talk about his decision making last year, he's taken a 180 this year, and that's all he has.

And I’m sure you aren’t watching every Mac snap. I have. So if you want that to be the barometer of being able to judge QB’s you sure have a lot to say about Mac. 
 

You can’t just have your cake and eat it too. Wilson is universally viewed as the worst prospect of that class. The class isn’t good, but Mac and thus far Fields have been leading it and deserve the benefit of the doubt more than anyone else right now based strictly on performance. 
 

Also overall your problem with assessment is you make the same mistake most people make and overly value physical traits. There’s plenty of QB’s with laser arms that failed out of the league. Plenty of great athletes at QB that did absolutely nothing. What sets QB’s apart are intangibles. Wilson clearly lacks that and in his physical traits he’s just not showing it. 
 

And no Mac will never be the athlete Mahomes or Allen are. But it’s alot easier to pick up some weights and work with a throwing coach to get your arm to “good enough” than it is to learn to read NFL defenses. 

[NJerseypaint]

3 minutes ago, lancerman said:

Also overall your problem with assessment is you make the same mistake most people make and overly value physical traits. There’s plenty of QB’s with laser arms that failed out of the league. Plenty of great athletes at QB that did absolutely nothing. What sets QB’s apart are intangibles. Wilson clearly lacks that and in his physical traits he’s just not showing it. 

You're right that I'm not watching Mac's games. I watched the Bears game and the Jets game - that's pretty much it so my view is 100% skewed by a small sample size.

And don't agree with your take on overly valuing physical traits. In a game of inches, having a QB who's a top tier athlete matters.

https://www.nfl.com/news/nfl-qb-index-week-5-2022-season-rankings

The top 6 QBs are all physically gifted. Whether it's their arm or their legs, they are elite athletes in the NFL. I get that Brady proved it all that wrong, but 1. he's a total mental phenom and 2. his throw power is underrated.

[lancerman]

Just now, NJerseypaint said:

You're right that I'm not watching Mac's games. I watched the Bears game and the Jets game - that's pretty much it so my view is 100% skewed by a small sample size.

And don't agree with your take on overly valuing physical traits. In a game of inches, having a QB who's a top tier athlete matters.

https://www.nfl.com/news/nfl-qb-index-week-5-2022-season-rankings

The top 6 QBs are all physically gifted. Whether it's their arm or their legs, they are elite athletes in the NFL. I get that Brady proved it all that wrong, but 1. he's a total mental phenom and 2. his throw power is underrated.

Okay take Brady, Brees, and Manning. 3 top 10’s of the last era who had as much or more success than anyone. Hell add in Montana. 
 

Would you rather take away their intangibles at dissecting defenses, being field generals, knowing how to manipulate the defense? Or would you rather make their arms the league average. They already aren’t fantastic runners or world class athletes. Hell take Allen do you want to go back to him being bad at reading defenses or keep his arm as good as it is instead of average. 

[NJerseypaint]

8 minutes ago, lancerman said:

Okay take Brady, Brees, and Manning. 3 top 10’s of the last era who had as much or more success than anyone. Hell add in Montana. 
 

Would you rather take away their intangibles at dissecting defenses, being field generals, knowing how to manipulate the defense? Or would you rather make their arms the league average. They already aren’t fantastic runners or world class athletes. Hell take Allen do you want to go back to him being bad at reading defenses or keep his arm as good as it is instead of average. 

This is far from what I'm saying. Never said reading a defense doesn't matter, just saying physical tools matter.

[NJC33]

2 hours ago, lancerman said:

And I’m sure you aren’t watching every Mac snap. I have. So if you want that to be the barometer of being able to judge QB’s you sure have a lot to say about Mac. 
 

You can’t just have your cake and eat it too. Wilson is universally viewed as the worst prospect of that class. The class isn’t good, but Mac and thus far Fields have been leading it and deserve the benefit of the doubt more than anyone else right now based strictly on performance. 
 

Also overall your problem with assessment is you make the same mistake most people make and overly value physical traits. There’s plenty of QB’s with laser arms that failed out of the league. Plenty of great athletes at QB that did absolutely nothing. What sets QB’s apart are intangibles. Wilson clearly lacks that and in his physical traits he’s just not showing it. 
 

And no Mac will never be the athlete Mahomes or Allen are. But it’s alot easier to pick up some weights and work with a throwing coach to get your arm to “good enough” than it is to learn to read NFL defenses. 

Universally? In what world are Field and Trey Lance "universally" viewed as being better prospects. Most people don't seem to have wavered on their pre-draft assessment. Disagree with them all you want, but to suggest some sort of universal opinion has formed is just fallacious. 

I've never seen a QB just pick up some weights and work with a throwing coach to improve their arm talent - accuracy, sure, but that's more mechanical, and isn't Mac's problem to begin with. Again, statement just seems dogmatic to prove a point. Plenty of QBs learn to read NFL defenses. In fact, pretty much any QB that doesn't play in a pro-style college offense is literally forced to learn how to read NFL defenses. 

Through 5 games (Sophomore season): Wilson / Mac / Josh Allen

• Passing YDS per game: 210 /  245* / 220
• CMP percentage: 55% / 66% / 62%
• YPA: 7.8 / 7.4 / 6.8
• TDs: 3 / 3 / 5
• INTs: 5 / 7 / 7
• INT percentage: 3.1% / 5.1% / 4.3%

*Not including Chicago

The narrative that Wilson is objectively hopeless, yet Mac is serviceable and worth progressing.. is objectively opinionated, nothing more. Wilson is having a near identical start to Josh Allen in '19. Do I think Wilson is the next Allen? Of course not. But, like Allen, he's a physically gifted QB who's struggling between the ears early. He may never figure it out, odds are he probably won't, but to act like he can't or that Mac is in a different universe comparably .. you can't just have your cake and eat it too!

[Daniel]

Having watched very little of any as pros, and just seeing other people's takes:

1. Tua (if his brain isn't scrambled)

2. Wilson (because Idk, they've won games?)

3. Mac (because I didn't like him as a prospect and now I get to be like 'hehe, I was right' while he sucks, even though that might not last)

[NYJets4716]

5 hours ago, biggie. said:

Mac Jones made the Pro Bowl and reached the playoffs his rookie season. He has been disappointing this season, but there's hope for him. We in Pats Land are not expecting him to be Allen/Mahomes but he can be a solid starter for us in the long run.

Wilson has done nothing except be a liability. He and Lance are big cautionary tales of when you ONLY consider "physical tools".

Lets be honest, if it wasn't for a bogus flag being thrown. Mac was throwing a pick 6, the Patriots down 17-3 at half and the game would have been different. Except the NFL decided they didn't like that JFM hit Mac too hard for whatever that means.  Mac also had dropped INTs, he wasn't good. He just threw nice screens. 

Tua is obviously the best right now, he has a historically good WR tandem, the issue with Tua is he will eventually have head issues. Too many concussions and will have more. 

[Forge]

Live look at Tua in this comparison right now: