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Week 5 GDT: San Francisco 49ers at Carolina Panthers


J-ALL-DAY

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Just now, Forge said:

The issue that concerns me is that this is a pretty large sample size of doing this now. It's not new. We were second in yards per play last year, but only 13th in points per game and that was with us having a big of an outlier season where it was first in redzone TD percentage (not overly common in SF or for Shanny through the years). 

Trust me, I know lol. But even last year we were able to put up 25 PPG. While it should have produced closer to 30 PPG with the way we were moving the ball (similar to 2019), it just did not. The issue is we aren't even close to getting to that 25 PPG mark right now. The offense thus far has scored 10, 27, 10 and 17 points. Sure the defenses have had the upper hand to start the season but eventually this will change and we will start scoring closer to 24-25 PPG, rather than 16 PPG. 

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19 minutes ago, Forge said:

George kittle ran routes on every pass play but 3 according to PFF against the Rams. 

What's the struggle with getting him in the passing game? Has he regressed that badly already? 

Are we really going to do that when we have all these clips showing what Jimmy is doing on every play? He's looking at one read and one read only. If Jimmy goes into a game like vs the Bengals where he is just wanting to target Kittle damn near every play, then he's going to still make the plays he always does. 

I need to see Kittle in open space and then really see if he has lost juice or not. Still was top 3 at the TE position at yards per route ran last season. 

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12 minutes ago, J-ALL-DAY said:

Are we really going to do that when we have all these clips showing what Jimmy is doing on every play? He's looking at one read and one read only. If Jimmy goes into a game like vs the Bengals where he is just wanting to target Kittle damn near every play, then he's going to still make the plays he always does. 

I need to see Kittle in open space and then really see if he has lost juice or not. Still was top 3 at the TE position at yards per route ran last season. 

But then the onus just goes to Kyle...why is he not implementing George with more priority in the passing game? Have offensive line problems? TE should be your best friend. Why is the offense so disjointed in getting George involved in the receiving game. Maybe it wouldn't be as bad as it has been if he were a bigger part ? 

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1 minute ago, Forge said:

But then the onus just goes to Kyle...why is he not implementing George with more priority in the passing game? Have offensive line problems? TE should be your best friend. Why is the offense so disjointed in getting George involved in the receiving game. Maybe it wouldn't be as bad as it has been if he were a bigger part ? 

Sure, Kyle can call some plays to get him the ball the same way he can call plays to get Aiyuk the ball...But it's still going to be on Jimmy to go that way. Like when Aiyuk is running across the field wide open and does not get the ball, what is Shanny even supposed to do? Is Jimmy the most one read QB of all time that he can't even look elsewhere but his first read? LIS yesterday, I am done judging these receivers and Shanny off just stats. 

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3 minutes ago, J-ALL-DAY said:

Sure, Kyle can call some plays to get him the ball the same way he can call plays to get Aiyuk the ball...But it's still going to be on Jimmy to go that way. Like when Aiyuk is running across the field wide open and does not get the ball, what is Shanny even supposed to do? Is Jimmy the most one read QB of all time that he can't even look elsewhere but his first read? LIS yesterday, I am done judging these receivers and Shanny off just stats. 

But if Jimmy is only going to his first read then he should get the ball if he is in fact the first read in a progression tree. It cuts both ways. Either George isn't being schemed for, which seems silly...or he is and he's not getting open or Jimmy is just going a different way anyway ,which means its not an issue with Jimmy just throwing to his first read. 

I'm trying to figure out if it's an offense issue (whether that is Jimmy or Kyle) or a George issue. 

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1 hour ago, Forge said:

But if Jimmy is only going to his first read then he should get the ball if he is in fact the first read in a progression tree. It cuts both ways. Either George isn't being schemed for, which seems silly...or he is and he's not getting open or Jimmy is just going a different way anyway ,which means its not an issue with Jimmy just throwing to his first read. 

I'm trying to figure out if it's an offense issue (whether that is Jimmy or Kyle) or a George issue. 

Let me ask you, has Aiyuk been as good as his 30 yards indicate the past few weeks or he could have easily doubled and tripled them? Do you fault him for not getting open or is that a Jimmy thing?

I will pay closer attention to Kittle on the rewatch and I'll point out when he was open and should have gotten the ball but Jimmy went elsewhere. 

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16 minutes ago, J-ALL-DAY said:

Let me ask you, has Aiyuk been as good as his 30 yards indicate the past few weeks or he could have easily doubled and tripled them? Do you fault him for not getting open or is that a Jimmy thing?

I will pay closer attention to Kittle on the rewatch and I'll point out when he was open and should have gotten the ball but Jimmy went elsewhere. 

I think it's not really analogous, tbh. He's going to run routes not in line with Jimmy's strengths so a natural suppression of his numbers would be expected. He's also not expected to be the primary read in as many calls, I would imagine. Aiyuk seems like a solid player, but he's not Deebo and he's not Kittle. Its far more understandable why Aiyuk's numbers are suppressed as opposed to Kittle's. 

This is about diagnosing the issue. This offense has been disjointed for a while. Kittle's last 8 games have seen him go over 30 yards one time (special shout out to the GB game where he just dropped what would have been a long touchdown), so what is the underlying  issue with getting Kittle *really* involved? Kittle has always had some production volatility, but nothing like this over such a prolonged stretch. Is this also what is causing the disjointed and struggling offense? The offense during that stretch has been very inconsistent. 

If Jimmy is going elsewhere, why? Is it because JImmy is simply not getting to him in the progressions, and if so, what happened to the playcalls which deemed him the primary read? It's not like Jimmy predetermining his reads and not going through progressions is new. So why is Kyle not emphasizing him more in the passing game and calling plays that prioritize him as the target even though he's not keeping him in to pass block? 

You're saying, "well, he's getting open but Jimmy isn't throwing to him" and my question to that is then why isn't shanny taking advantage of that and calling plays where George is the primary read? Or are we going to say that every play where he's the primary read Jimmy is just going elsewhere and the plays where he's not the primary read he's wide open and Jimmy just isn't getting there? 

George not consistently being part of the offense and not generating production is a fixable issue (assuming it's not just Kittle regressing), so I want to know what the issue is that is preventing him from being a bigger, more productive part of the offense. 

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11 minutes ago, Forge said:

I think it's not really analogous, tbh. He's going to run routes not in line with Jimmy's strengths so a natural suppression of his numbers would be expected. He's also not expected to be the primary read in as many calls, I would imagine. Aiyuk seems like a solid player, but he's not Deebo and he's not Kittle. Its far more understandable why Aiyuk's numbers are suppressed as opposed to Kittle's. 

This is about diagnosing the issue. This offense has been disjointed for a while. Kittle's last 8 games have seen him go over 30 yards one time (special shout out to the GB game where he just dropped what would have been a long touchdown), so what is the underlying  issue with getting Kittle *really* involved? Kittle has always had some production volatility, but nothing like this over such a prolonged stretch. Is this also what is causing the disjointed and struggling offense? The offense during that stretch has been very inconsistent. 

If Jimmy is going elsewhere, why? Is it because JImmy is simply not getting to him in the progressions, and if so, what happened to the playcalls which deemed him the primary read? It's not like Jimmy predetermining his reads and not going through progressions is new. So why is Kyle not emphasizing him more in the passing game and calling plays that prioritize him as the target even though he's not keeping him in to pass block? 

You're saying, "well, he's getting open but Jimmy isn't throwing to him" and my question to that is then why isn't shanny taking advantage of that and calling plays where George is the primary read? Or are we going to say that every play where he's the primary read Jimmy is just going elsewhere and the plays where he's not the primary read he's wide open and Jimmy just isn't getting there? 

George not consistently being part of the offense and not generating production is a fixable issue (assuming it's not just Kittle regressing), so I want to know what the issue is that is preventing him from being a bigger, more productive part of the offense. 

So you are saying Aiyuk is playing as well as his stats indicate, right? Because someone like Allen Robinson is being brought up by the media as not being targeted enough but I didn't see him create much separation on any of the routes on Monday...The same can't be said about Aiyuk.

And as far as Aiyuk running routes that aren't Jimmy's strengths....Him running across the field wide open is the types of throws Jimmy does through though. Just didn't there because he predetermined his read. If you want to say when Aiyuk beat Jewell and Jimmy didn't even look at him because that's not the type of throw he makes, then I can buy that...Because yes, while Aiyuk was open, Jimmy is just not going to throw that. Same with how in the first half he had Aiyuk open down the field on Ramsey but he elected to go to Deebo for a first down...but a much smaller gain. 

I think it is fair to ask why Kittle is not the first option on some of these plays and if he is, why Jimmy is not looking his way. He did the SAME exact thing with Aiyuk last season before targeting him much more in the 2nd half of the year. Was that because of Kyle or just that Jimmy started to trust Aiyuk more? Because Aiyuk was not winning any more or less on his routes than he did at the beginning of the season.  

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1 minute ago, J-ALL-DAY said:

So you are saying Aiyuk is playing as well as his stats indicate, right? Because someone like Allen Robinson is being brought up by the media as not being targeted enough but I didn't see him create much separation on any of the routes on Monday...The same can't be said about Aiyuk.

And as far as Aiyuk running routes that aren't Jimmy's strengths....Him running across the field wide open is the types of throws Jimmy does through though. Just didn't there because he predetermined his read. If you want to say when Aiyuk beat Jewell and Jimmy didn't even look at him because that's not the type of throw he makes, then I can buy that...Because yes, while Aiyuk was open, Jimmy is just not going to throw that. Same with how in the first half he had Aiyuk open down the field on Ramsey but he elected to go to Deebo for a first down...but a much smaller gain. 

I think it is fair to ask why Kittle is not the first option on some of these plays and if he is, why Jimmy is not looking his way. He did the SAME exact thing with Aiyuk last season before targeting him much more in the 2nd half of the year. Was that because of Kyle or just that Jimmy started to trust Aiyuk more? Because Aiyuk was not winning any more or less on his routes than he did at the beginning of the season.  

I have seen multiple times when Aiyuk is open...nobody would debate that people can play better than their stats indicate. We also don't really know if that is an issue or not with Kittle, tbh. Right now that seems an assumption more than anything...honestly, I'd be willing to bet most people attribute his lack of passing game involvement to pass blocking, which appears to be objectively false. I've not seen the tape from the Rams game, but I'm also not seeing a bunch people lament how open Kittle was on various plays with Jimmy missing him out and about (which I am seeing with Aiyuk and even Juice) 

Kittle lines up in line more than anything. Not wide, not in the slot. His routes should pull him right into Jimmy's wheelhouse. It's a very weird situation. If he's not getting open, it doesn't even necessarily mean that he has regressed - could still just be getting right from the injury. I have no idea if it's a long term thing either. 

Its fair to wonder why he's not being used more. Maybe that is all it is. Don't know. But its not unfair to wonder if he's losing something given his age / injury history / etc. 

 

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11 minutes ago, Forge said:

I asked Rich what he is seeing since I haven't had a chance to look. It appears he has already seen it. I am really curious. 

Kittle needs to be more involved unless he has lost step and is just struggling on his own. 

Well, looks like he has addressed some of this recently lol.

I'm going to be watching the game soon and paying close attention to Kittle and see if there were any legitimate chances he had or not. 

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4 minutes ago, J-ALL-DAY said:

Well, looks like he has addressed some of this recently lol.

I'm going to be watching the game soon and paying close attention to Kittle and see if there were any legitimate chances he had or not. 

Yeah, these were before the Rams game. I followed up with the Rams game with him, but I'm not sure if he'll respond. 

Let me know what you see. I'm not sure I'll even get to it this week to really sit down and watch as my GF is out of town for a wedding and I'm stuck with the little man. 

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