Joe Barry'd again

[StatKing]

What's Dom Capers doing these days? Maybe give him a 2nd shot.

[MrBobGray]

I'm trying to watch the Giants game between dealing with life stuff, and honestly I'm starting to wonder if I'm going mad.  Everybody seems real mad at Barry for being so vanilla and not trusting his players, but he's played Cover-1, Cover-3, Cover-6, even a snap of Cover-0, he's shown 2 deep pre-snap that rotates to Cover-1/Cover-3, he's blitzed Amos and Quay.  If anything, they're trying to do too much, as there's been more than a few times where the coverage seemed confused and not everybody was playing the same thing. 

The biggest weakness that seems to get exploited in Barry's calls is that, and keep in mind I have nowhere near the data I need to back this up, but they seem to play the open side CB (wide side of the formation) like ten yards off no matter what the call or personnel is.  Like sometimes it's Cover-6, sometimes it's Cover-1, sometimes it's Cover-3, but the open side CB is always way off the ball.  Idea definitely seems to be that this allows em to put a safety in the box to counter Saquon, plus it allows you to rotate toward the wide side of the field if you're changing coverage post-snap.  Basically the whole DB unit can shift assignments toward the wide side, open side CB can play downhill post-snap because the safety that seemed to be drifting to play Cover-6 is suddenly over the top.  I can't say how well it works because I barely have enough time to even chart the basic alignments they're using, much less the efficacy of each one.  I can say that many if not all of the big plays in the passing game I've seen come from off-coverage, whether it's zone or man.  This is where their trouble with crossers comes in: if your assignment is running a crosser and you're 10 yards off the ball, it doesn't matter what the call is, you're not getting there in time.  The only real hope is the box guys drifting back in coverage far enough to help out, but given the need to play a wide box (see below), it's unrealistic to expect them to be able to get far enough back to close those routes out.

Which leads me to one of the bigger issues I've seen so far : the CBs in run support.  Stokes has been a huge disappointment here for me.  He just does not play physical at all, and if he's the force player this becomes a real significant issue.  This isn't totally out of character for him, he's never been the most physical guy, but at least from memory it feels like a step back from his rookie year in this regard.  Stranger has been Douglas, who's been better but has had his moments of making a business decision as well.  This is a bigger issue than it seems, because Barry can't trust his perimeter guys to set an edge which means playing wider front-7 looks to try and reduce the number of times the RB can get wide enough to make the CB the force player.  This means at times there's only one LB at the second level, and even when there's a couple bodies there they still have to play a pretty stretched area.  With Barry calling so much single high, this means you end up with a safety 20 yards back with ten yards of field between him and the next level of coverage. 

I dunno.  I really need like 10x as much free time as I have to actually go through this, but life has just been swamped.  I guess mostly I feel like there's definitely issues with defense, but I'm not sure they're actually the ones fans seemed to have latched on to.

[coachbuns]

7 hours ago, CWood21 said:

I mean, aside from the Minnesota game the defense has been fine.  The loss against the Giants to me falls on the offense.  We're 5th in oYPG, 11th in oPPG, and 4th in o3rd down %.  And we're 11th in sacks.  We haven't exactly played a murder's row of opponents by any means.

27 points to the Giants .. not really.  One of the worst in the league at getting turnovers .. this defense with all it's talent is not fine.  Scheming has to be better with the players they have.  That being said, the offense hasn't been all roses either; more thorns than flowers.  Time for coaches to get their act together and figure it out.

Edited October 13, 2022 by coachbuns

[coachbuns]

23 minutes ago, MrBobGray said:

I'm trying to watch the Giants game between dealing with life stuff, and honestly I'm starting to wonder if I'm going mad.  Everybody seems real mad at Barry for being so vanilla and not trusting his players, but he's played Cover-1, Cover-3, Cover-6, even a snap of Cover-0, he's shown 2 deep pre-snap that rotates to Cover-1/Cover-3, he's blitzed Amos and Quay.  If anything, they're trying to do too much, as there's been more than a few times where the coverage seemed confused and not everybody was playing the same thing. 

The biggest weakness that seems to get exploited in Barry's calls is that, and keep in mind I have nowhere near the data I need to back this up, but they seem to play the open side CB (wide side of the formation) like ten yards off no matter what the call or personnel is.  Like sometimes it's Cover-6, sometimes it's Cover-1, sometimes it's Cover-3, but the open side CB is always way off the ball.  Idea definitely seems to be that this allows em to put a safety in the box to counter Saquon, plus it allows you to rotate toward the wide side of the field if you're changing coverage post-snap.  Basically the whole DB unit can shift assignments toward the wide side, open side CB can play downhill post-snap because the safety that seemed to be drifting to play Cover-6 is suddenly over the top.  I can't say how well it works because I barely have enough time to even chart the basic alignments they're using, much less the efficacy of each one.  I can say that many if not all of the big plays in the passing game I've seen come from off-coverage, whether it's zone or man.  This is where their trouble with crossers comes in: if your assignment is running a crosser and you're 10 yards off the ball, it doesn't matter what the call is, you're not getting there in time.  The only real hope is the box guys drifting back in coverage far enough to help out, but given the need to play a wide box (see below), it's unrealistic to expect them to be able to get far enough back to close those routes out.

Which leads me to one of the bigger issues I've seen so far : the CBs in run support.  Stokes has been a huge disappointment here for me.  He just does not play physical at all, and if he's the force player this becomes a real significant issue.  This isn't totally out of character for him, he's never been the most physical guy, but at least from memory it feels like a step back from his rookie year in this regard.  Stranger has been Douglas, who's been better but has had his moments of making a business decision as well.  This is a bigger issue than it seems, because Barry can't trust his perimeter guys to set an edge which means playing wider front-7 looks to try and reduce the number of times the RB can get wide enough to make the CB the force player.  This means at times there's only one LB at the second level, and even when there's a couple bodies there they still have to play a pretty stretched area.  With Barry calling so much single high, this means you end up with a safety 20 yards back with ten yards of field between him and the next level of coverage. 

I dunno.  I really need like 10x as much free time as I have to actually go through this, but life has just been swamped.  I guess mostly I feel like there's definitely issues with defense, but I'm not sure they're actually the ones fans seemed to have latched on to.

Gosh, I wish you had more time to expand on this.  More on the defense and offense from you would be sweet.

[squire12]

2 hours ago, Smidgeon said:

Does anyone have Rodgers accuracy on deep balls while adjusting for WR drops vs the league? 

Because if GB is in the bottom third of IAY/PA *AND* Rodgers is in the bottom half of accuracy on long balls, then Rodgers isn't the QB he was even last year--not by a long shot. 

 

 

https://nextgenstats.nfl.com/charts/single/all/green-bay-packers/2022/week/aaron-rodgers/ROD339293

 

Rodgers has 6 dropped passes on the year.  tied for 24th most among QB's

3.8% drop rate

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2022/passing_advanced.htm  (click the tab for accuracy)

[Leader]

42 minutes ago, MrBobGray said:

I'm trying to watch the Giants game between dealing with life stuff, and honestly I'm starting to wonder if I'm going mad.  Everybody seems real mad at Barry for being so vanilla and not trusting his players, but he's played Cover-1, Cover-3, Cover-6, even a snap of Cover-0, he's shown 2 deep pre-snap that rotates to Cover-1/Cover-3, he's blitzed Amos and Quay.  If anything, they're trying to do too much, as there's been more than a few times where the coverage seemed confused and not everybody was playing the same thing. 

The biggest weakness that seems to get exploited in Barry's calls is that, and keep in mind I have nowhere near the data I need to back this up, but they seem to play the open side CB (wide side of the formation) like ten yards off no matter what the call or personnel is.  Like sometimes it's Cover-6, sometimes it's Cover-1, sometimes it's Cover-3, but the open side CB is always way off the ball.  Idea definitely seems to be that this allows em to put a safety in the box to counter Saquon, plus it allows you to rotate toward the wide side of the field if you're changing coverage post-snap.  Basically the whole DB unit can shift assignments toward the wide side, open side CB can play downhill post-snap because the safety that seemed to be drifting to play Cover-6 is suddenly over the top.  I can't say how well it works because I barely have enough time to even chart the basic alignments they're using, much less the efficacy of each one.  I can say that many if not all of the big plays in the passing game I've seen come from off-coverage, whether it's zone or man.  This is where their trouble with crossers comes in: if your assignment is running a crosser and you're 10 yards off the ball, it doesn't matter what the call is, you're not getting there in time.  The only real hope is the box guys drifting back in coverage far enough to help out, but given the need to play a wide box (see below), it's unrealistic to expect them to be able to get far enough back to close those routes out.

Which leads me to one of the bigger issues I've seen so far : the CBs in run support.  Stokes has been a huge disappointment here for me.  He just does not play physical at all, and if he's the force player this becomes a real significant issue.  This isn't totally out of character for him, he's never been the most physical guy, but at least from memory it feels like a step back from his rookie year in this regard.  Stranger has been Douglas, who's been better but has had his moments of making a business decision as well.  This is a bigger issue than it seems, because Barry can't trust his perimeter guys to set an edge which means playing wider front-7 looks to try and reduce the number of times the RB can get wide enough to make the CB the force player.  This means at times there's only one LB at the second level, and even when there's a couple bodies there they still have to play a pretty stretched area.  With Barry calling so much single high, this means you end up with a safety 20 yards back with ten yards of field between him and the next level of coverage. 

I dunno.  I really need like 10x as much free time as I have to actually go through this, but life has just been swamped.  I guess mostly I feel like there's definitely issues with defense, but I'm not sure they're actually the ones fans seemed to have latched on to.

Hope the "life swamp" drains a bit for you.

[R T]

54 minutes ago, MrBobGray said:

I'm trying to watch the Giants game between dealing with life stuff, and honestly I'm starting to wonder if I'm going mad.  Everybody seems real mad at Barry for being so vanilla and not trusting his players, but he's played Cover-1, Cover-3, Cover-6, even a snap of Cover-0, he's shown 2 deep pre-snap that rotates to Cover-1/Cover-3, he's blitzed Amos and Quay.  If anything, they're trying to do too much, as there's been more than a few times where the coverage seemed confused and not everybody was playing the same thing. 

The biggest weakness that seems to get exploited in Barry's calls is that, and keep in mind I have nowhere near the data I need to back this up, but they seem to play the open side CB (wide side of the formation) like ten yards off no matter what the call or personnel is.  Like sometimes it's Cover-6, sometimes it's Cover-1, sometimes it's Cover-3, but the open side CB is always way off the ball.  Idea definitely seems to be that this allows em to put a safety in the box to counter Saquon, plus it allows you to rotate toward the wide side of the field if you're changing coverage post-snap.  Basically the whole DB unit can shift assignments toward the wide side, open side CB can play downhill post-snap because the safety that seemed to be drifting to play Cover-6 is suddenly over the top.  I can't say how well it works because I barely have enough time to even chart the basic alignments they're using, much less the efficacy of each one.  I can say that many if not all of the big plays in the passing game I've seen come from off-coverage, whether it's zone or man.  This is where their trouble with crossers comes in: if your assignment is running a crosser and you're 10 yards off the ball, it doesn't matter what the call is, you're not getting there in time.  The only real hope is the box guys drifting back in coverage far enough to help out, but given the need to play a wide box (see below), it's unrealistic to expect them to be able to get far enough back to close those routes out.

Which leads me to one of the bigger issues I've seen so far : the CBs in run support.  Stokes has been a huge disappointment here for me.  He just does not play physical at all, and if he's the force player this becomes a real significant issue.  This isn't totally out of character for him, he's never been the most physical guy, but at least from memory it feels like a step back from his rookie year in this regard.  Stranger has been Douglas, who's been better but has had his moments of making a business decision as well.  This is a bigger issue than it seems, because Barry can't trust his perimeter guys to set an edge which means playing wider front-7 looks to try and reduce the number of times the RB can get wide enough to make the CB the force player.  This means at times there's only one LB at the second level, and even when there's a couple bodies there they still have to play a pretty stretched area.  With Barry calling so much single high, this means you end up with a safety 20 yards back with ten yards of field between him and the next level of coverage. 

I dunno.  I really need like 10x as much free time as I have to actually go through this, but life has just been swamped.  I guess mostly I feel like there's definitely issues with defense, but I'm not sure they're actually the ones fans seemed to have latched on to.

This is very much my thoughts, but there is little point in debating it with many here because the anti-Barry hate is already a runaway train. The problem isn't personnel or even scheme, it is a lack of execution. The defense will sync up soon enough, with Quay playing as many snaps as he does it is going to be a work in progress and mental mistakes are going to happen. Barring injuries this defense will be lights out come December.  

[Packer_ESP]

It's funny to watch you guys arguing over whether what REALLY did us in was the kick in the balls or the punch in the mouth. Both offense and defense sucked bigtime and both units need fixing. We're not riding the wings of either to a super bowl win, we need both units working properly, and neither does at this point of time.

[vegas492]

13 hours ago, R T said:

This is very much my thoughts, but there is little point in debating it with many here because the anti-Barry hate is already a runaway train. The problem isn't personnel or even scheme, it is a lack of execution. The defense will sync up soon enough, with Quay playing as many snaps as he does it is going to be a work in progress and mental mistakes are going to happen. Barring injuries this defense will be lights out come December.  

We kind of had to expect some growing pains with Quay, right?

Here's my "thing" concerning him.  He makes mistakes at 100mph.  I can live with mistakes if they are made at full speed.  I'm still very much on his bandwagon.

[Packerraymond]

14 hours ago, R T said:

This is very much my thoughts, but there is little point in debating it with many here because the anti-Barry hate is already a runaway train. The problem isn't personnel or even scheme, it is a lack of execution. The defense will sync up soon enough, with Quay playing as many snaps as he does it is going to be a work in progress and mental mistakes are going to happen. Barring injuries this defense will be lights out come December.  

Good players don't lack execution to the level we've lacked. It's either scheme or talent, and on paper it sure as hell isn't talent.

[R T]

1 minute ago, Packerraymond said:

Good players don't lack execution to the level we've lacked. It's either scheme or talent, and on paper it sure as hell isn't talent.

Something to revisit 1 to 2 months from now, but posters on forums seldom do. Everything is about this moment. 

[Packerraymond]

14 minutes ago, R T said:

Something to revisit 1 to 2 months from now, but posters on forums seldom do. Everything is about this moment. 

Did you watch Barry's presser? Seemed LaFleur kindly suggested he start switch up how he calls games. The fans aren't always right, but in this case, the blame deservedly has fallen on Barry.

[Jaire_Island]

2 minutes ago, Packerraymond said:

Did you watch Barry's presser? Seemed LaFleur kindly suggested he start switch up how he calls games. The fans aren't always right, but in this case, the blame deservedly has fallen on Barry.

I hope some one kindly suggest Lafluer too on how he calls the game. Going 3 straight passes, not giving your RB’s a ball to run for 2 yards on 2 downs and going away from run game after just one negative yard running play needs to be changed as well. 

[Packerraymond]

Just now, Jaire_Island said:

I hope some one kindly suggest Lafluer too on how he calls the game. Going 3 straight passes, not giving your RB’s a ball to run for 2 yards on 2 downs and going away from run game after just one negative yard running play needs to be changed as well. 

The goal line situations were RPOs, so blame goes to the QB.

The 3 pass situation we got 1 high twice. 1st down Lazard gets mugged and the refs call nothing and 2nd down the DB made a great play on a call that we ran early with Doubs getting 20+ yards.

You shouldn't have a problem with any of those playcalls. The refs screwed us on one, the DB made a play on the other, and on 3rd down Lazard gave a lame effort on a 50/50 ball. At the goal line, Rodgers chose not to run, but we should be giving our QB that choice to put us in a good spot.

[R T]

11 minutes ago, Packerraymond said:

Did you watch Barry's presser? Seemed LaFleur kindly suggested he start switch up how he calls games. The fans aren't always right, but in this case, the blame deservedly has fallen on Barry.

Yes, I watch the presser and I saw a guy who was politely trying to explain that it is a process. The more reps they get together as a unit the better the production will be and allow them to be more aggressive as the season goes on. How aggressive will be a week-to-week thing and based on the team they are playing. As much as some fans love and need to blame someone every time the Packers lose a game, because that is what losers do, it is an overreaction 5 weeks into the season. If the Packers leadership is what I think they are, they are only looking inward to improve and not partaking in a counterproductive blame game. Way too early for all the panic.