Let's talk Jon Robinson

[lovetitans]

3 hours ago, TitanSS said:

The exact number is hyperbole.

The point is he's bad and people don't want to give up on their previous beliefs despite the fact that the only good draft he's ever had was in 2019 and he already lost a star 25 year old player from that class that defined his career.

He hasn't been great but to say he's been BAD is a reach. He's drafted, Henry, Byard, laundry, Simmons, Nate Davis, Hooker, Long, Fulton, Moden, Rice, Weaver all still on the team, plus this years draft class has shown decent upside so far.  Plus Conklin, and AJ Brown. Drafting isn't the only measure of success for a GM. His trades have been pretty damn good for the most part. Tanny an above average starting QB for a 4th round pick is outstanding regardless of your feelings about him. moving back a few spots in the 4th round to get Demarco Murry was a great move. Getting Denis Kelly for Green-Beckham was awesome, Getting anything out Willson was great. Also but people don't seem to understand he's limited on the contract's he's able to hand out. he can't manipulate the cap like other teams. Amy is rich but by NFL owner standards, she poor. That's why some of these players we had to let walk. Conklin and Jonnu had to go if we wanted to keep Henry and Tanny. Harold laundry wouldn't be here if we payed AJ. That's just the sad truth. As much as we want every good/great player we draft to stay with the Titans for their entire career It's just not gonna happen unless Amy somehow triples her bank account balance.

I will say If Robinsons most recent 2022 draft and this upcoming offseason don't get productive starters out of them he should probably be gone.    

[TitanRedd]

2 hours ago, deeluxx3 said:

This is going to sound contradictory 

but I do think he’s a very good GM

but I think he’s treading down on a very very sharp decline 

I know we should all “be over it” and convince ourselves that he didn’t want to be here, but the AJ trade is truly, IMO, the worst personnel decision this franchise has ever made since legit locking out Steve McNair 

it was a devastating mistake from Robinson, an arrogant one, and we are already paying the price 

 

Agreed 

[TitanRedd]

2 hours ago, Daniel said:

I was ****posting someone on Facebook who said something about AJ Brown being a trade target like the day before.

The idea that we wouldn’t re-sign one of the top WRs in the NFL seemed so asinine.

I literally called it on the forum a month before the draft 🤷🏽‍♂️

[deeluxx3]

19 minutes ago, lovetitans said:

He hasn't been great but to say he's been BAD is a reach. He's drafted, Henry, Byard, laundry, Simmons, Nate Davis, Hooker, Long, Fulton, Moden, Rice, Weaver all still on the team, plus this years draft class has shown decent upside so far.  Plus Conklin, and AJ Brown. Drafting isn't the only measure of success for a GM. His trades have been pretty damn good for the most part. Tanny an above average starting QB for a 4th round pick is outstanding regardless of your feelings about him. moving back a few spots in the 4th round to get Demarco Murry was a great move. Getting Denis Kelly for Green-Beckham was awesome, Getting anything out Willson was great. Also but people don't seem to understand he's limited on the contract's he's able to hand out. he can't manipulate the cap like other teams. Amy is rich but by NFL owner standards, she poor. That's why some of these players we had to let walk. Conklin and Jonnu had to go if we wanted to keep Henry and Tanny. Harold laundry wouldn't be here if we payed AJ. That's just the sad truth. As much as we want every good/great player we draft to stay with the Titans for their entire career It's just not gonna happen unless Amy somehow triples her bank account balance.

I will say If Robinsons most recent 2022 draft and this upcoming offseason don't get productive starters out of them he should probably be gone.    

I’m asking out of naivety 

explain this to me. If there’s a salary cap, why/how can the Rams of the world with Kroenke pay EVERYONE and we can’t?

[lovetitans]

31 minutes ago, deeluxx3 said:

I’m asking out of naivety 

explain this to me. If there’s a salary cap, why/how can the Rams of the world with Kroenke pay EVERYONE and we can’t?

From my understanding its because they have the ability to hand out massive amounts of signing bonuses. That money even though its prorated to pay out over the life of the contract is still actual cash that has to be put in an account right now. They paid $160ish million in signing bonus money and $310 million in total guaranteed money to just 5 players this year. Amy can't do that. Kroenke is the 5th richest owner in the NFL. Amy is the 26th richest. 

 

This is partly why I tend to give Robinson the benefit when it comes to some of the deals he chose not to make. AJ Brown being one of them. It would have been close to $50 million is cash set aside for just AJ and Laundry. I'm sure Robinson would be happy to write blank checks with Amy's money but she has to have the money in order for him to do that.  

Edited October 10, 2022 by lovetitans

[KingTitan]

Before I give my take...
I'd like to ask who people think are the best GM's in the NFL?

[Daniel]

22 minutes ago, lovetitans said:

From my understanding its because they have the ability to hand out massive amounts of signing bonuses. That money even though its prorated to pay out over the life of the contract is still actual cash that has to be put in an account right now. They paid $160ish million in signing bonus money and $310 million in total guaranteed money to just 5 players this year. Amy can't do that. Kroenke is the 5th richest owner in the NFL. Amy is the 26th richest. 

 

This is partly why I tend to give Robinson the benefit when it comes to some of the deals he chose not to make. AJ Brown being one of them. It would have been close to $50 million is cash set aside for just AJ and Laundry. I'm sure Robinson would be happy to write blank checks with Amy's money but she has to have the money in order for him to do that.  

There’s a pretty big misunderstanding about how the cap works with signing bonuses.

Signing bonuses do not just make cap numbers go away. They’re a way to manipulate the cap by spreading out the hit to when it’s most advantageous, but it doesn’t make the numbers go away completely.

The take that “owners can just pay more and sign who they want” is not accurate. Amy is not being stingy. The cap does in fact exist. Some GMs are just really really good at manipulating it.

[lovetitans]

14 minutes ago, Daniel said:

There’s a pretty big misunderstanding about how the cap works with signing bonuses.

Signing bonuses do not just make cap numbers go away. They’re a way to manipulate the cap by spreading out the hit to when it’s most advantageous, but it doesn’t make the numbers go away completely.

The take that “owners can just pay more and sign who they want” is not accurate. Amy is not being stingy. The cap does in fact exist. Some GMs are just really really good at manipulating it.

Thats not what I'm saying. They still have to have the actual cash in order to hand out those bonuses. Of course we can spread a deal out to to minimize cap hit but doing that doesn't reduce the amount of actual cash needed. doesn't mater if its $50 million signing bonus over a 2 year contract or 7 year contract. that $50 million has to be set aside at the moment the deal is signed.   

[deeluxx3]

44 minutes ago, KingTitan said:

Before I give my take...
I'd like to ask who people think are the best GM's in the NFL?

JRob among top ten at worst 

[twotonebluenation]

39 minutes ago, KingTitan said:

Before I give my take...
I'd like to ask who people think are the best GM's in the NFL?

You got me researching some of the best gms in the NFL and their draft history.

I know it's more than drafts. But some of these lauded guys have some serious dud drafts.

Researching this has changed a bit of my perspective on the draft and Jrob. But it does make me even more pissed we didn't give AJ the bag.

Back to my investigation. 🤔

[Chocolateman78]

This team was the #1 seed last year with the most rostered players in history and 10 months later fans wanna fire the GM. Ya know when some teams have as many injuries as this team has had, they wind up with multiple top 10 picks. They consistently find guys who can contribute enough to win. 
 

look he deserves criticism for the poor results of some recent draft classes, but media has made the draft seem like it’s the end all be all for GM evaluation. Fans overrate the draft, I believe it more and more every year. It’s important, but fans overrate it. They put too much emotion into it.
 

As long as this team is consistently playoff competitive, JRob is safe no matter how much fans hate the draft or the AJB trade. Now if his next few drafts are equally bad, then the team likely won’t be playoff competitive and we can talk fire Robinson, until then this argument sounds like everyone is too wrapped up in the micro to observe the macro.

 

also almost the entire 2022 class is contributing (if healthy), including UDFA Stonehouse who might be the biggest weapon on our team rn 😂

he pulled Hillard off the couch last year and he’s been the productive 3rd down back they’ve been looking for since Henry became the focal point of the offense. How big has Tart been? 
 

 

Edited October 10, 2022 by Chocolateman78

[twotonebluenation]

1 hour ago, KingTitan said:

Before I give my take...
I'd like to ask who people think are the best GM's in the NFL?

I really like what Brandon Beane, John Lynch and good ole Belichick have done. (Although I hated the Mac Jones pick).

Also Mickey Loomis has done some really solid things in New Orleans. He has really given that team so many chances with great draft picks. And he has been in the saddle for awhile there.

I think Les Snead has had a different approach. I don't know how sustainable what he does is. But hey, he got the Rams a Super Bowl. Which I would die for a Titans super bowl.

Putting it all in perspective, I am willing to turn down my temperature on Jrobs hot seat. He has really done some great things, and I think knows when he has made mistakes. He just needs his QB.

Edited October 10, 2022 by twotonebluenation

[Chocolateman78]

Now… that being said... 
 

I’ve wondered all year if the AJ Brown trade could have caused tension between JRob and Vrabel. Cuz I’m convinced Vrabs didn’t want nor believe he was going to lose AJB. If he’s been skeptical at all of other moves, that could have put it over the top… but I’m just speculating.

[KingTitan]

Excuse the long post but lets look at the "top" GMs

Just gonna look at the draft since that is one the main things people say Robinson is failing at. 

1. Howie Rosman- since 2019
27 wins. 2 playoffs appearances, no playoff wins
1st round picks- Andre Dillard, Jalen Reagor, Decvonta Smith, Jordan Davis
Jalen Reagor-Traded
Dillard-5th year option declined, on IR only 9 games started
Davis and Smith- TBD
Smith- 900 plus yards as rookie.
 

2. Brandon Beene- since 2017
53 Wins- 3 Playoff Appearances,  3 playoff wins
1st round picks- Tre'Davious White, Josh Allen, Tre Edmonds, Ed Oliver,  Gregory Rousseau, Kaiir Elam
Franchise QB- Allen
White, Edmonds, Oliver, Rousseau- all starters
A QB will either elevate or tank your status as a GM. He picked a Franchise QB along with several starters so I'd say he is #1. 

3. Les Snead-since 2012
88 wins,  4 playoff appearances, 1 SB win, 7 playoff wins.
Jared Goff, Todd Gurley, Greg Robinson, Tavon Austin, Michael Brockers
Noteable trades: Von Miller, Matt Stafford, Jalen Ramsey, Aquib Talib, Dante Fowler, Brandin Cooks, Marcus Peters, 

4. Jason Licht- since 2014
61 wins, 1 SB win,  2 playoff appearences, 5 playoff wins
Joe Tryon-Shoyinka    Tristan Wirfs, Devin White, Vita Vea, OJ Howard, Vernon Hargreaves III, Jamies Winston, Mike Evans
Evans-Superstar (HOF track)
Winston-Bust
Hargreaves- Bust
Howard- Bust
Vea, White, Wirfs, Tryon-Shoyinka- All starters. 

 

Actually I'm going to stop there, because I feel those are some of the most highly talked about GMs.

Compare them to Robinson
Jon Robinson-since 2016
62 wins-4 playoff appearances,  3 playoff wins
1st round picks- Corey Davis, Jack Conklin, Adoree Jackson, Jefferey Simmons, Caleb Farley, Isisah Wilson, Treylon Burks, Rashaan Evans
Davis, Conklin, Jackson, Evans all left as FA's (Jackson released)
Wilson- released
Simmons- Star
Farley- Trending down fast.
Burks-TBD

So he has one more win that Snead in the same time period (Since 2016-62wins to Snead 61).
More playoff appearances than Licht, Beane, Roseman, and Snead,
No losing seasons through 2 head coaches.
Depending on what you count as misses. Failure to resign talent is a miss? Or failure to identity talent? But he hit on the talent of Davis, Conklin, Simmons, Jackson, and Evans as NFL starters. 
Missed on Wilson, Farley is looking like a miss.

Licht busted on a franchise QB and 2 others as NFL talents and only made the playoffs after signing a 40 plus QB in FA. 
Did Snead bust on Goff as a franchise QB? Traded him away.
Beane- Hit on a Franchise QB and that makes your status as a GM almost an automatic A+. 

So what are we complaining about with Robinson?  Failure to identify talent? 2 bad 1st round picks? Failure to win? Failure to make playoffs? 4 playoffs out of 6 years. If not for Blaine Gabbert and Mariota's broken leg in Jacksonville it is 6 out of 6 years?

Robinson has some faults. He has failed to retain 1st round picks and some of the FA moves haven't panned out. But to be able to find UDFA starters routinely and later round picks that are starters is a skill.
Until he misses on a franchise QB, I don't think there should be any talk of firing him. 

 

 

[TitanSS]

2 hours ago, lovetitans said:

He hasn't been great but to say he's been BAD is a reach. He's drafted, Henry, Byard, laundry, Simmons, Nate Davis, Hooker, Long, Fulton, Moden, Rice, Weaver all still on the team, plus this years draft class has shown decent upside so far.  Plus Conklin, and AJ Brown. Drafting isn't the only measure of success for a GM. His trades have been pretty damn good for the most part. Tanny an above average starting QB for a 4th round pick is outstanding regardless of your feelings about him. moving back a few spots in the 4th round to get Demarco Murry was a great move. Getting Denis Kelly for Green-Beckham was awesome, Getting anything out Willson was great. Also but people don't seem to understand he's limited on the contract's he's able to hand out. he can't manipulate the cap like other teams. Amy is rich but by NFL owner standards, she poor. That's why some of these players we had to let walk. Conklin and Jonnu had to go if we wanted to keep Henry and Tanny. Harold laundry wouldn't be here if we payed AJ. That's just the sad truth. As much as we want every good/great player we draft to stay with the Titans for their entire career It's just not gonna happen unless Amy somehow triples her bank account balance.

I will say If Robinsons most recent 2022 draft and this upcoming offseason don't get productive starters out of them he should probably be gone.    

I bolded all of the players you want to give Robinson credit for drafting who are starters on this team before injuries.

Of those 8 players, 4 we're drafted outside of 2019.

His chair should be on fire. He's been downright terrible outside of 2019 and the only thing that has stopped everyone for calling for his head is because we've managed to win in spite of all of his failures.

You don't keep Mularkey and Mariota simply because the team overcame their bad coaching/play and made the playoffs in the past and you don't keep a bad GM because the team managed to overcome his failures.

He's not good and I don't think it's up for debate.