Who’s Worse - Vance or Mac?

[AnAngryAmerican]

Simple question - the Rapist or the Patriot?

The most incompetent coach in Broncos history or the one who made this question worth posing? 

To Mac’s credit, 2009-10 was all on him, and Ellis. 

The Rapist had a (seemingly) competent front office that won a Super Bowl and appeared in another.  But he’s taken a fine roster, lost the locker room and crapped all over the team’s season. 

[broncosfan07]

Drunk posts ftw! 

 

This was totally a necessary thread though.

[Scoundrel]

One of them brought us Robert Ayers and Tim Tebow in the first round. As well as trading the pick that was eventually used on Earl Thomas for Alphonso Smith. As well as other wonderful second round picks in Darcel McBath and Richard Quinn. I'm going with Mac right now but if Vance is given another season it could very well be him. 

[broncos67]

McDaniels was worse overall, but he was also a better coach. He was a terrible talent evaluator and approached coaching the team in a less than ideal way. In general, though, I think most would agree that McDaniels has found considerable success as a coach over time.

Goofy is just out of his league. He frequently appears not to know where he is. He just seems kind of confused like a kid who lost a parent in a grocery store. The cliched lines and stuff are just funny at this point. McDaniels actually had people ready to storm the bastille. It's different with Vance. It's become sitcom like

[AKRNA]

19 minutes ago, broncos67 said:

McDaniels was worse overall, but he was also a better coach. He was a terrible talent evaluator and approached coaching the team in a less than ideal way. In general, though, I think most would agree that McDaniels has found considerable success as a coach over time.

Goofy is just out of his league. He frequently appears not to know where he is. He just seems kind of confused like a kid who lost a parent in a grocery store. The cliched lines and stuff are just funny at this point. McDaniels actually had people ready to storm the bastille. It's different with Vance. It's become sitcom like

That's about the funniest and most appropriate description of Vance I've seen yet,

[germ-x]

I may get burned for this in the forum and I would have no issue being proven wrong, but outside of STs, I haven’t thought coaching has been the issue.

Everyone knows I loved the McDaniels hire, but he clearly crapped the bed and I have always admitted that.

In terms of the team this year, though, at some point the onus needs to be on the players and I have yet to really see that.

Denver is 3-7 and in 8 of those 10 games the team has either won or been in position to win.  Today is a great example. McCoy draws up a great play call at the 5 yard line.  Sanders is literally wide open for a walk in TD and Osweiler throws a 100 yard INT because he didn’t read the play.  Anderson fumbles in a crucial situation. The list goes on....multiple dropped passes.

If you look back at the majority of Denver’s losses you find more player mistakes than coaching, IMO.  Fumbles, stupid INTs, dropped passes.  The majority of games you can look back and see unacceptable miscues by players.  Those miscues aren’t on coaching either.  Most of these guys have been playing football since they were 8 years old and some of them veteran players.  No amount of coaching makes Derby not fumble vs the chargers, Sanders catch a wide open pass vs the bills, Osweiler make the right read on an easy TD, Charles not fumbling vs the Chiefs.  The list literally keeps going.

Players have to make plays, pure and simple.  Joseph doesn’t seem to have lost the team, McDaniels clearly had.

[jolly red giant]

I think that the players are dropping the ball because that is what the coaches are doing. 

I don't think Joseph has lost the team - I don't think he ever had it to begin with. If he is as lost as he looks on the sideline then why would he be any different on the training ground or in the locker room? He was brought in to be a 'leader of men' and he has led then into a dumpster fire of a season.

I think that things will get worse - some players will react negatively about putting Lynch in and tanking the season (Talib certainly comes to mind) and the 'leader of me' will lead the team to a fractured and vindictive locker room.

[jsthomp2007]

Yes.

[broncos67]

10 hours ago, germ-x said:

I may get burned for this in the forum and I would have no issue being proven wrong, but outside of STs, I haven’t thought coaching has been the issue.

Everyone knows I loved the McDaniels hire, but he clearly crapped the bed and I have always admitted that.

In terms of the team this year, though, at some point the onus needs to be on the players and I have yet to really see that.

Denver is 3-7 and in 8 of those 10 games the team has either won or been in position to win.  Today is a great example. McCoy draws up a great play call at the 5 yard line.  Sanders is literally wide open for a walk in TD and Osweiler throws a 100 yard INT because he didn’t read the play.  Anderson fumbles in a crucial situation. The list goes on....multiple dropped passes.

If you look back at the majority of Denver’s losses you find more player mistakes than coaching, IMO.  Fumbles, stupid INTs, dropped passes.  The majority of games you can look back and see unacceptable miscues by players.  Those miscues aren’t on coaching either.  Most of these guys have been playing football since they were 8 years old and some of them veteran players.  No amount of coaching makes Derby not fumble vs the chargers, Sanders catch a wide open pass vs the bills, Osweiler make the right read on an easy TD, Charles not fumbling vs the Chiefs.  The list literally keeps going.

Players have to make plays, pure and simple.  Joseph doesn’t seem to have lost the team, McDaniels clearly had.

I would agree with a lot of what you wrote here, but they've also been flat out uncompetitive in a number of games this year. It's not like we're losing the way the Chargers were early on. Coaches take the fall for player mistakes often, that's not solely limited to Denver. That said, I do think Joseph has lost the team. Or at least, they never really bought into him in the first place. I know I've said this many times, but I've never heard a player go to bat for Joseph. I've never heard glowing praise and admiration for him as a coach. I heard that with Fox, Kubiak, hell, I heard it about Mac for crying out loud. Now the players are all miffed about Elway's "soft" comment. Didn't hear Joseph really stand up for his players. It's a pretty tepid situation at best in Dove Valley right now.

[champ11]

@broncos67 https://247sports.com/nfl/denver-broncos/Bolt/Broncos-Von-Miller-gives-massive-vote-of-confidence-to-Vance-Joseph-110230180 

Saying none of the players have gone to bat for Joseph is false. I remembered this press conference and found these quotes in like 2 seconds. 

Everybody reacting to the post game comments is gonna be funny. I've talked about it before, but this team is in a unique situation. It's a really tough spot to be as a coach, let alone a rookie coach who looks like he wasn't quite ready. There are a ton of good players on the team, that have already gotten paid, and believe they are championship level players. BUT the team sucks because of a few key positions. No one on the team thought this was a rebuild and the expectations were a Super Bowl. Yet here they are at 3-7 because of quarterback play and a couple other positions. It's just a weird situation the team is in guys. It's not a typical rebuild. 

[champ11]

Also this thread is ridiculous. It's McDaniels and it's not close. If you're mad at Vance, you are directing your emotions at the wrong person. It's on Elway. 

[broncos67]

25 minutes ago, champ11 said:

@broncos67 https://247sports.com/nfl/denver-broncos/Bolt/Broncos-Von-Miller-gives-massive-vote-of-confidence-to-Vance-Joseph-110230180 

Saying none of the players have gone to bat for Joseph is false. I remembered this press conference and found these quotes in like 2 seconds. 

Everybody reacting to the post game comments is gonna be funny. I've talked about it before, but this team is in a unique situation. It's a really tough spot to be as a coach, let alone a rookie coach who looks like he wasn't quite ready. There are a ton of good players on the team, that have already gotten paid, and believe they are championship level players. BUT the team sucks because of a few key positions. No one on the team thought this was a rebuild and the expectations were a Super Bowl. Yet here they are at 3-7 because of quarterback play and a couple other positions. It's just a weird situation the team is in guys. It's not a typical rebuild. 

Von is the leader of the team, I would expect him to say things like this, although he only really does so when prompted. I don't know man, I just don't really think our team really respects Vance as a head coach. No doubt the record is playing into that a bit, but it just doesn't feel that way to me.

[iLikeDefense]

If VJ makes it past this year and the team is worse or about the same then to me, McDaniels was a better HC. We all know McDaniels is a better coordinator and a brighter football mind than VJ. However, McDaniels literally tore our team apart, not to say VJ wouldn't have done that if he had the power to but that's what separates them both for me. McDaniels literally tore down this franchise and VJ is part of the problem but so is Elway and the staff/players/FO he assembled these last two to three years.

[champ11]

9 minutes ago, broncos67 said:

Von is the leader of the team, I would expect him to say things like this, although he only really does so when prompted. I don't know man, I just don't really think our team really respects Vance as a head coach. No doubt the record is playing into that a bit, but it just doesn't feel that way to me.

Yeah I mean there are plenty of things that are causing the attitude on this team and if you want to go with "they don't respect the HC," sure

[BroncosFan2010]

I mean, at least McDaniels initially had a really nice run. He had the players motivated and busting their butts. You cant take that initial success away from Mac. His true issues came with the absurd amount of control he was handed, and eventually his abrasive personality lost the locker room. But initially, he was a success. You cant really say that for Vance.

They both suck. Vance is a ghost and McDaniels was a ******. But the ****** initially got a team playing really well, until everyone realized he was a ******. The ghost wasn't ever there to begin with.