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How much blame belongs to George Paton?


jolly red giant

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36 minutes ago, anewdawn said:

This ownership group is going to hold someone accountable!  I think it's likely Paton and that's kind of sad as he was so good in the draft.   I would have jumped at the same trade and actually thought we didn't give up that much for Wilson but now it has all hit the fan............ very sad...........   

I think it will be Hackett first for sure, then Paton on a very short leash thereafter and I imagine the Ownership group will have a significant say on who the new HC is.

When the HC isn't the GM's guy, that is when things REALLY start to head south.

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14 minutes ago, lomaxgrUK said:

I think it will be Hackett first for sure, then Paton on a very short leash thereafter and I imagine the Ownership group will have a significant say on who the new HC is.

When the HC isn't the GM's guy, that is when things REALLY start to head south.

It is clear that Hackett is a deadman walking - no matter how long he lasts.

However, I would suggest that more than just the HC - the entire offensive staff need to be tuned into what needs to happen to maximise the skill set that Wilson clearly still has. This team needs to be able to play defence - needs to be able to run the football - and needs to be able to put Wilson in a situation where he can make the plays that he is capable of to win the game (I think the Broncos win last night if Wilson had been the QB in the 4Q) - in effect, do what Pete Carroll did for ten years. Wilson may not like this - but he really does need to realise that this is the only way he will succeed and save his reputation.

I go back to what Sean Payton said a couple of weeks ago - that he would get his staff to look at every TD pass that Wilson ever threw and every RZ completion that he ever threw - and that those plays would make up the package that the offensive scheme would be based on.

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2 hours ago, jolly red giant said:

It is clear that Hackett is a deadman walking - no matter how long he lasts.

However, I would suggest that more than just the HC - the entire offensive staff need to be tuned into what needs to happen to maximise the skill set that Wilson clearly still has. This team needs to be able to play defence - needs to be able to run the football - and needs to be able to put Wilson in a situation where he can make the plays that he is capable of to win the game (I think the Broncos win last night if Wilson had been the QB in the 4Q) - in effect, do what Pete Carroll did for ten years. Wilson may not like this - but he really does need to realise that this is the only way he will succeed and save his reputation.

I go back to what Sean Payton said a couple of weeks ago - that he would get his staff to look at every TD pass that Wilson ever threw and every RZ completion that he ever threw - and that those plays would make up the package that the offensive scheme would be based on.

Part of the problem with that, is Wilson is 33 and doesn't move the same. 

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8 hours ago, broncos67 said:

Should he get a free pass? Absolutely not. Should he be fired? I would say no to that as well.

Hindsight is 20/20, but we were stuck in QB purgatory and Paton went out and got a QB widely accepted to be inside the Top 10 in the league. The compensation, while steep, wasn't astronomical, and there was obviously reason to be optimistic about the season.

I think Paton deserves criticism for giving Russ the contract he did before any games were played. That's looking mighty foolish.

As it relates to Hackett...how Paton handles things going forward will shape a lot of his legacy, IMO. The Hackett hire is what it is. Now it's about properly assessing the situation and making the right determination on whether this relationship will work or not, and if not, quickly cutting bait and finding a new coach. The absolute worst thing that could happen would be to hang on to Hackett too long.

As usual, Ben is correct. I would say, however, that giving Russ the extension when we did might have come from
WP - avoid incessant contract extension talk in-season - as much as it did from George, for likely similar reasons. 

When we got Russ the move was universally lauded - not just locally but nationally - as was the pairing of him and Hackett. Peter Schrager on GMFB, hardly one for “hot takes” picked Hackett for COTY and Russ for MVP, and he’s an east coast sportswriter, a real journalist, by trade, not an ESPN screaming head or Broncos homer. 

Hackett was in the final 3 - along with O’Connell and Quinn - did George make a mistake? Sure looks like it. But it’s not a hanging offense. He is a highly regarded GM and should get a chance to right the ship and learn from it. 

As most here know, I’m opposed to the “hot coordinator” hire, but Hackett checked a lot of additional boxes - experience in multiple systems, well above average intelligence, a lifetime spent in football and a ringing endorsement of one of the more difficult, mercurial personalities in the NFL (A-Rod).

But it turned out to be a bad hire. And I like Hackett as a dude; as I often said about Vance (in contrast to Mac and Fangio), if any of us has a beer with him we would probably like him. I can totally see why George went the way he did. 

Edited by AnAngryAmerican
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11 minutes ago, AnAngryAmerican said:

As usual, Ben is correct. I would say, however, that giving Russ the extension when we did might have come from
WP - avoid incessant contract extension talk in-season - as much as it did from George, for likely similar reasons. 

When we got Russ the move was universally lauded - not just locally but nationally - as was the pairing of him and Hackett. Peter Schrager on GMFB, hardly one for “hot takes” picked Hackett for COTY and Russ for MVP, and he’s an east coast sportswriter, a real journalist, by trade, not an ESPN screaming head or Broncos homer. 

Hackett was in the final 3 - along with O’Connell and Quinn - did George make a mistake? Sure looks like it. But it’s not a hanging offense. He is a highly regarded GM and should get a chance to right the ship and learn from it. 

As most here know, I’m opposed to the “hot coordinator” hire, but Hackett checked a lot of additional boxes - experience in multiple systems, well above average intelligence, a lifetime spent in football and a ringing endorsement of one of the more difficult, mercurial personalities in the NFL (A-Rod).

But it turned out to be a bad hire. And I like Hackett as a dude; as I often said about Vance (in contrast to Mac and Fangio), if any of us has a beer with him we would probably like him. I can totally see why George went the way he did. 

It's like any hire in corporate America. Sometimes the person in the interview is different than they are in the actual job. Or they don't fit the culture. I think Denver, and Paton more specifically, saw the organization had become stale and bland under Fangio which was leading to general apathy about the team in and out of the building. I don't think that can be denied - it was clear as day to all of us.

Hackett was, and still is, a radically different person than Fangio with a different philosophy and style. That said, he doesn't seem like he's up for the other parts of the job and the results just aren't there. 

I think you can lay blame at the feet of Paton when we see how he handles this situation. If he keeps Hackett on for too long, we're going to be right back at the point of internal/external apathy, and with new owners that could be it for both George and Hackett. Realistically, if we don't win in London I think there's a small chance Hackett is fired. If something happens where we score 3 points or something, he might get fired that day. I can appreciate that Paton is in a tricky position given his reputation, so I hope he navigates this as cleanly as possible.

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4 minutes ago, broncos67 said:

It's like any hire in corporate America. Sometimes the person in the interview is different than they are in the actual job. Or they don't fit the culture. I think Denver, and Paton more specifically, saw the organization had become stale and bland under Fangio which was leading to general apathy about the team in and out of the building. I don't think that can be denied - it was clear as day to all of us.

Hackett was, and still is, a radically different person than Fangio with a different philosophy and style. That said, he doesn't seem like he's up for the other parts of the job and the results just aren't there. 

I think you can lay blame at the feet of Paton when we see how he handles this situation. If he keeps Hackett on for too long, we're going to be right back at the point of internal/external apathy, and with new owners that could be it for both George and Hackett. Realistically, if we don't win in London I think there's a small chance Hackett is fired. If something happens where we score 3 points or something, he might get fired that day. I can appreciate that Paton is in a tricky position given his reputation, so I hope he navigates this as cleanly as possible.

I think that, barring a late season surge against a brutal schedule (our last six are @BAL, vs KC, vs ARZ, @LAR, @KC, vs LAC) where we go something like 4-1 or even 3-2 and things seem to click, Hackett is gone. He’s not going to be fired in-season absent a scandal or complete locker room revolt. 

We have what looks to be a special DC in Evero and a ton of talent on that side of the ball. We have emerging young players and a bunch of key guys on IR and, yes, Russ. This will be an attractive job.

George clearly wants a WCO type coach; if we hire a retread (and I’m not using that term pejoratively) HC like Dan Quinn, George most clearly wants a WCO so keeping someone like Klint on board will have to be part of the package. The only caveat being that we get Sean Paton, and give NO some picks, which would change the equation. I’ll trust George on one more hire, then all bets are off. 

I’ll add, and reiterate what I have since 2017, that the biggest mistake that Ellis/Elway made during their stewardship of the franchise was not getting Kyle when we could have. Just sayin’ 

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52 minutes ago, BroncoBruin said:

I’d bet a decent amount of money that Brian Schottenheimer will be the OC next year. The Russ trade has to work, so getting his guy makes the most sense.

https://www.fieldgulls.com/2022/6/21/23177442/report-russell-wilson-wanted-brian-schottenheimer-schotty-fired-seattle-seahawks-oc-2020

Wilson wanted him fired FWIW.

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So now with the trade deadline looming Paton is going to be scrutinized again.  Rumours abound that we have a first on the table for Chubb.  I don't know the source but my son says the two most interested teams are the Jets and Dolphins.  As both are in the same division it could be a bidding war so my son said that it is only hopeful that one of them gives up a first.   A second is there for sure.  If it's the Jets you have to take it.  In four of the games the Jets won they have played a back up qb.  I can see a rough second half for them and maybe their first becomes a top 10-15 pick overall.  I think you got to take that.  Our D can survive his loss especially with Gregory coming back...................

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44 minutes ago, anewdawn said:

So now with the trade deadline looming Paton is going to be scrutinized again.  Rumours abound that we have a first on the table for Chubb.  I don't know the source but my son says the two most interested teams are the Jets and Dolphins.  As both are in the same division it could be a bidding war so my son said that it is only hopeful that one of them gives up a first.   A second is there for sure.  If it's the Jets you have to take it.  In four of the games the Jets won they have played a back up qb.  I can see a rough second half for them and maybe their first becomes a top 10-15 pick overall.  I think you got to take that.  Our D can survive his loss especially with Gregory coming back...................

It's not just Gregory - Browning needs to be a starter.    Bonnito & Cooper aren't starter-level right now, but you can justify having them as 3rd/4th guys.   And you don't pay EDGE another 20M - so we can invest in the OL & interior DL (Dre'mont extended, beef up OL).    The interest is real, obv it's just King, but he's the one calling Jets vs. Phins.

 

 

If we get the equivalent of a 1st, it's a no-brainer.    Nothing against Chubb, he's really played well this year, but this addresses so many areas for optimal team construction, it's something that would be shocking if Paton didn't go there.   If he chose to extend Chubb with Browning in the mix, and our needs on OL & IDL (esp with Dre'mont Jones extension lurking around the corner)....that would seriously have me questioning Paton a lot more than dealing Chubb.   Tagging Chubb and looking for a deal makes way more sense than an extension - but it's doubtful he could do any better in a deal then than with teams desperate for EDGE help and wanting to win now.   If the reports are true, then this is the time to strike.

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As for how the PR is received with a Chubb trade - I have a simple solution - get a Dre'mont Jones extension done this week immediately after you trade Chubb away.

Reinforces that you're committed to the team, but this is a business, and you're intending to use the resources to make the team better.  As much as the players & fans won't like losing Chubb - extending Dre'mont sends the message we're still all in for 2023+ onwards, and even now - Browning, Gregory, and Bonnito/Cooper are here to stay.

A trade of Chubb is basically choosing Dre'mont over Chubb (which I fully support given our DL & EDGE corps), so making it explicit and official would calm the casual fans down...and let the players know Paton's committed to the guys left behind.  Win-win PR wise if you extend Dre'mont now. 

Edited by Broncofan
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On 10/31/2022 at 12:54 PM, Broncofan said:

As for how the PR is received with a Chubb trade - I have a simple solution - get a Dre'mont Jones extension done this week immediately after you trade Chubb away.

Reinforces that you're committed to the team, but this is a business, and you're intending to use the resources to make the team better.  As much as the players & fans won't like losing Chubb - extending Dre'mont sends the message we're still all in for 2023+ onwards, and even now - Browning, Gregory, and Bonnito/Cooper are here to stay.

A trade of Chubb is basically choosing Dre'mont over Chubb (which I fully support given our DL & EDGE corps), so making it explicit and official would calm the casual fans down...and let the players know Paton's committed to the guys left behind.  Win-win PR wise if you extend Dre'mont now. 

And to have a #1 draft pick would be great.  I'd go with a trade to the Jets because they have a history of picking in the top 10. 

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On 10/24/2022 at 5:38 AM, broncos67 said:

Should he get a free pass? Absolutely not. Should he be fired? I would say no to that as well.

Hindsight is 20/20, but we were stuck in QB purgatory and Paton went out and got a QB widely accepted to be inside the Top 10 in the league. The compensation, while steep, wasn't astronomical, and there was obviously reason to be optimistic about the season.

I think Paton deserves criticism for giving Russ the contract he did before any games were played. That's looking mighty foolish.

The thing about the trade is, it was ALWAYS going to come part and parcel with that extension. It’s the Shiny New Toy Syndrome. You’re a GM, you make this gigantic move that everyone’s excited about, but also everyone now knows the pressure to get the extension done. Your leverage in negotiations is non-existent. Imagine Paton trading away that ransom, and then the following winter having to tell the fans, ‘welp, Russ has priced himself off of our roster, guess we’ll either trade him now or let him walk ¯\_(ツ)_/¯’ 

Mutiny, from top to bottom inside and outside the organization. So the extension is just the cost of doing business. If you’re not prepared to pay out the ears for the guy, welcome to 2022 starter at QB, Drew Lock.

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Absolutely love that Paton is betting on himself with this trade. I think in many ways this next draft or maybe 2024 will determine if Paton stays or not. He will have truly rebuilt the team in his own image at that point with hardly anyone from the Elway era. I wouldn't be surprised if he didn't trade some more from there tbh if there's interest. I certainly can't knock the guy since he's faced adversity since day1. Remember in the Fields draft how many of us, me included, who were pissed he drafted Surtain and thought that Elway was still driving things behind the scenes? Say what you will about Paton, but he has a clear vision of what he wants and has done everything in his power to go for it. It may not turn out, but that's much more than some GMs ever do.

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Also interesting Paton quote from a 104.3 article: “We would’ve made this trade regardless (when talking about if we were 5-3). We just felt the value was too good, we believe in our young depth, we believe in our defense. Moving forward, we have other holes to fill on the offensive side of the ball. We would’ve made this trade regardless."

https://denverfan.com/2101495/george-paton-claims-even-if-the-broncos-were-5-3-he-wouldve-traded-chubb/

 

There's hope for yall wanting a revamped offensive line 😃

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