How much blame belongs to George Paton?

[broncos67]

13 minutes ago, big_palooka said:

Out of curiosity, was anyone else bidding against Denver for him?

Is there any real way of knowing this?

[BroncoBruin]

3 hours ago, big_palooka said:

Out of curiosity, was anyone else bidding against Denver for him?

Washington offered three 1sts.

[The Helicopter]

6 hours ago, BullsandBroncos said:

There are some reservations to be made about Paton, especially about hiring Hackett, but let's not forget that anyone in their right minds makes the Russ trade. It was the right thing to do at the time 

I may be wrong, but @AKRNA and maybe another member of this forum thought Russ was washed up and this trade was not the right direction for the franchise. I don't know a lick about football, but I'm curious to go back and look at some of these conversations. I'm beginning to wonder if Paton made two serious blunders (Russ and Hackett) and he's in way over his head. It's something to be discussing. If we thought our franchise was in bad shape before, each week brings a new low to our culture. I'm unsure how players and coaches view this team as a desirable landing spot with our current and escalating issues.

[AnAngryAmerican]

On 11/25/2022 at 2:09 AM, jolly red giant said:

On top of the stuff about Wilson audibling into Seahawks plays - I have now seen reports that Hackett and Wilson have been at loggerheads over what type of offence to run, with Hackett wanted to bring the GB offence and Wilson wanting to run plays that he had success with in Seattle.

If this is the case then Hackett has to go - as an 'offensive guru' you don't force your offensive scheme onto the QB if the QB (that you have given up a sh*tload of draft picks for and paid a lot of money) doesn't want it - or doesn't have the skillset to run it - and from what I can see Wilson does not have the skillset (or the brains) to run it. It has taken 9 horrible games with Hackett calling the plays before there has been a change - and despite the loss Kubiak looked like he was getting more out of Wilson (the Broncos should have scored 23-27 points during the game except for drops by receivers).

Now - this goes back to Paton - you hire a rookie HC (I wanted Quinn - not Hackett) - you give up draft picks and players to get your QB (no problem with that one) - you then pay the QB $250m before he throws a pass (no problem with that one either) - but, if the story is true, you see your HC and your QB wanted to run different offences. What should you do - you should haul in your rookie HC and tell him to design his offence around what your QB wants and can do - not what the HC wants to do to prove he is an 'offensive guru'. In fact - if you are an 'offensive guru' you should be able to 'guru' your way to an effective offence with a QB like Wilson. 

That is on Paton - he should have acted as soon as the problem arose - and he needs to act now by sacking Hackett.

 

There is something to be said about coaching to your available talent - you don’t try to fit square pegs into round holes - but there also has to be a happy medium IMO.

Nothing but deep passes down the sidelines isn’t going to cut it when a) our only 50-50 WR is a hobbled and never-again-will-be-the-same Sutton and b) teams know Russ wants to do that and thus they play a ton of cover-2. 

I have said it for months now - and it was one reason why I supported the idea of giving Klint play-calling - is create some bootlegs, some play-action roll-outs and some moving pockets - all staples of the Shanahan/Kubiak/et. al. offense. And we don’t do it. That would create passing lanes, use defensive flows against themselves and allow guys to excel in space. Now, the fact we’re not doing that could be in part due to our OL which has only one starter (Risner) who played every game. But at least try it.

That both suits what Klint, who is the de facto OC, wants to do and it also plays to Russ’ strengths as a short, (somewhat) mobile, plus-arm QB. Jeudy, Hamler and Patrick would be huge to have now as they can create in space, another facet of the offense we’re supposed to be running. Hackett, for whatever is worth is at this point, is smart enough to know Russ isn’t Rodgers - while Aaron, who isn’t big a la Josh Allen, is taller than Russ and his field vision, pocket awareness and quick decision-making surpass Russ’ by miles - but he, Hackett, either won’t stand up to Russ or is just so goddamned lost he can’t adjust. 

[AnAngryAmerican]

7 hours ago, BullsandBroncos said:

There are some reservations to be made about Paton, especially about hiring Hackett, but let's not forget that anyone in their right minds makes the Russ trade. It was the right thing to do at the time 

You’re correct. This is why I hate the Monday morning QBing (no pun intended) by local sports talk radio shock jocks and their ilk in the “media” regarding the Russ trade. That was nearly universally lauded, by Broncos media and national media alike. You have a chance to land a (at the time) HOF QB, you pull the trigger. Yes, drafting an Allen/Maholmes/Jackson/Burrow at the top of the first round is the best option but it’s also a massive roll of the dice. Look at how many top of the first picks teams like the Jets, Browns and Cardinals have spent on QBs over the last 20 years - with next to nothing to show for it. 

I’m not going to ask for George’s head when he made a move that 99% of GMs in his shoes would have made. And, really, as I’ve said before, I can easily see the appeal of Hackett as HC and why George went the way he did. Do both appear to be mistakes now? Yes, but I can easily understand why both moves were made. 

[AnAngryAmerican]

43 minutes ago, The Helicopter said:

I may be wrong, but @AKRNA and maybe another member of this forum thought Russ was washed up and this trade was not the right direction for the franchise. I don't know a lick about football, but I'm curious to go back and look at some of these conversations. I'm beginning to wonder if Paton made two serious blunders (Russ and Hackett) and he's in way over his head. It's something to be discussing. If we thought our franchise was in bad shape before, each week brings a new low to our culture. I'm unsure how players and coaches view this team as a desirable landing spot with our current and escalating issues.

I just outlined my thoughts on this but I’ll say it again - no, George isn’t in over his head. A man of his experience, seriousness and professionalism knows what he’s doing. He has made mistakes - even HOF GMs make mistakes - and the Hackett hire and the Russ trade were both moves that are totally understandable considering the all the factors at play when George took the job. 

That being said, George should (and will) get another chance to make a HC hire and if he screws up that one, I will jump ship. 

[lomaxgrUK]

19 hours ago, AnAngryAmerican said:

You’re correct. This is why I hate the Monday morning QBing (no pun intended) by local sports talk radio shock jocks and their ilk in the “media” regarding the Russ trade. That was nearly universally lauded, by Broncos media and national media alike. You have a chance to land a (at the time) HOF QB, you pull the trigger. Yes, drafting an Allen/Maholmes/Jackson/Burrow at the top of the first round is the best option but it’s also a massive roll of the dice. Look at how many top of the first picks teams like the Jets, Browns and Cardinals have spent on QBs over the last 20 years - with next to nothing to show for it. 

I’m not going to ask for George’s head when he made a move that 99% of GMs in his shoes would have made. And, really, as I’ve said before, I can easily see the appeal of Hackett as HC and why George went the way he did. Do both appear to be mistakes now? Yes, but I can easily understand why both moves were made. 

i 100% agree with this.

That said, it's the contract that has killed us. We can't have Russell off the roster for 2 years, and even after 3 years it would result in $45m in dead cap.

The picks, whilst being bad, are not debilitating. The contract absolutely is and there were many people who questioned the timing of the contract (not me - I backed it, unfortunately). I get what George was trying to do by getting ahead of the curve but to do it without seeing Russ in live action has ultimately sunk this team for years to come.

Such a shame because I love some of the moves he's made. It's just a massive shame that the two biggest ones (Russ, Hackett) have completely failed. 

[Broncofan]

19 minutes ago, lomaxgrUK said:

i 100% agree with this.

That said, it's the contract that has killed us. We can't have Russell off the roster for 2 years, and even after 3 years it would result in $45m in dead cap.

The picks, whilst being bad, are not debilitating. The contract absolutely is and there were many people who questioned the timing of the contract (not me - I backed it, unfortunately). I get what George was trying to do by getting ahead of the curve but to do it without seeing Russ in live action has ultimately sunk this team for years to come.

Such a shame because I love some of the moves he's made. It's just a massive shame that the two biggest ones (Russ, Hackett) have completely failed. 

Recognizing that a few outliers didn't like the deal (full credit to @AKRNA, he called it), it really is a case of hindsight for 99% of fans - including here.    

The extension could have been avoided - but that's also a reflection of how insane the market increases have been.     That's the risk with extensions but again, no one who supported the trade was against it, either.

To be clear, I'm not in the boat that thinks it's hopeless - because the OL & coaching issues are THAT bad right now.  To be clear, Russ is still a big problem - the Q is whether it's fixable.     But either way, the flexibility of only being tied to 2023 would have been far better....in hindsight.   That's my problem with the Paton criticism here.  The same ppl calling for his head that were supporting the move 6+ months ago have no leg to stand on. 

I will differ from those who say that the ownership is risking scaring away good candidates by an early firing, though - DEN's ownership has deep pockets, and Paton is highly respected in the NFL community.    Frankly, him keeping Hackett week in and week out is doing more damage to Paton's stock IMO - because it's giving the appearance he's more interested in protecting his choice.    The fact that ownership was willing to fire Hackett at the bye if we lost to JAX - TOTALLY invalidates the argument about sending the wrong message to new coaches.    Once that story is out, you've already bought the perception.     Frankly, it's the most disheartening part of this year - ownership let Hackett stay because of the JAX W, but would have canned him had we lost?     After the last 3 weeks, I don't know how you justify that - and frankly, the fanbase and players get this in spades.   It's crushing that Paton doesn't.  THAT is one area I'll see criticism as valid.

The reality is that the O and D could function autonomously without Hackett - they already do.   Firing Hackett sends a message to the players and fans that the ownership and FO hold everyone accountable - not just the players.    If Hackett was a player, and performed this poorly - he'd have been cut weeks ago.    Last Sunday, we actually saw the D break in the 2H - and I really don't blame anyone on that squad.   Enough is enough.

The rule that every coach should get 2 years, or even 1 - is a good one.  But there are ALWAYS exceptions to the rule, and frankly, Hackett's incompetence, and the fact he's also been an OC / assistant HC for 10+ years - this isn't a rookie HC with limited time, who can grow.   We ALL know it's over with him.     Prolonging this execution is just excruciating on all sides - and given we were willing to fire him after JAX, there's no supposed "gain" to new HC's.   The best way to attract good HC's - show the roster we have has hope with even just an "OK" interim guy.     Keeping the status quo is only crushing our perception to outsiders even more - because it calls into question the decision-making of the FO by keeping Hackett.

 

Edited November 29, 2022 by Broncofan

[lomaxgrUK]

40 minutes ago, Broncofan said:

To be clear, I'm not in the boat that thinks it's hopeless - because the OL & coaching issues are THAT bad right now.  To be clear, Russ is still a big problem - the Q is whether it's fixable

I appreciate the optimism. I'm definitely in the 'hopeless' boat until I see something to offer me optimism. It's been that bad this year from Russell that it has, for my mind, erased the years of excellent play before it in terms of judging how he can contribute in the future.

The 14 points we are averaging has us as the worst Offensive team since the 2000 Browns. I don't get care if we have Lenny Walls, Marcus Nash, George Foster and Menelik Watson out there - Wilson has led the worst NFL Offense in 22 years.

[jolly red giant]

I don't think it is possible to over-estimate how bad things are from the coaching perspective - Hackett is that bad - and if the rumours that himself and Russell have been at loggerheads over the type of offence to run then (coupled with the injuries and the sheer lack of identity from an offensive perspective) you end up with not being able to score.

Is Wilson showing he can play at a pro-bowl level anymore ? - clearly not. 

The more important question is whether he is serviceable as a starting QB for the next 3/4 years in the right hands and with an offensive scheme that maximises his skillset and minimises his deficiencies ? - I think yes until proven otherwise.

If it turns out that Wilson is completely washed up then you have to blow up the whole roster - cutting Wilson (a cap hit of $85m) - eat all the dead cap money in one year and start fresh. And we shouldn't do that until after the end of next season so we don't end up giving Seattle another top 3 pick.

[Broncofan]

8 hours ago, jolly red giant said:

I don't think it is possible to over-estimate how bad things are from the coaching perspective - Hackett is that bad - and if the rumours that himself and Russell have been at loggerheads over the type of offence to run then (coupled with the injuries and the sheer lack of identity from an offensive perspective) you end up with not being able to score.

Is Wilson showing he can play at a pro-bowl level anymore ? - clearly not. 

The more important question is whether he is serviceable as a starting QB for the next 3/4 years in the right hands and with an offensive scheme that maximises his skillset and minimises his deficiencies ? - I think yes until proven otherwise.

If it turns out that Wilson is completely washed up then you have to blow up the whole roster - cutting Wilson (a cap hit of $85m) - eat all the dead cap money in one year and start fresh. And we shouldn't do that until after the end of next season so we don't end up giving Seattle another top 3 pick.

I am NOT suggesting we are dealing with the same level of QB talent - but Urban Meyer's incompetence made Trevor Lawrence look like he's not even starter level, bottom-5 last year.     The OL issues and bad OC work made Tua look awful last year.   And even though he still needs a lot of work, Fields is nowhere near as bad as last year with Matt Nagy's supreme-level incompetence.   No one disputes that Hackett is on that level of awful - otherewise the fact he's a goner after Year 1 as a given would seem nuts. 

There are countless examples where truly horrific OC & OL play creates nightmare QB performance.  Having said that, neither Trevor Lawrence, Tua or Fields were completely blameless either (as well as they've played this year, you see certain flaws that they still own <Lawrence reading zones, Tua's arm strength is def limited, Fields still needs work as a thrower, but he's made def progress>).    

Wilson being 34, he shouldn't be THIS bad from coaching / OL.   Let's be clear about that.   It's a pipe dream to think he can still be top 6-8, and 2022's nightmare is all coaching & OL.    But it's also very possible he's being coached by a guy who's worse than Urban Meyer in terms of O prep.     So I'm not sitting here thinking firing Hackett solves all the problems.   The OL needs a MASSIVE upgrade in 3 spots (and the other 2 we missed our starters we'd feel OK about in 2023).     Could he be in the top 12 tier (but not top 6-8) with a decent coach and OL?   Sure.   Could he be a similar version to Tannehill/Cousins?  That seems more than fair to project given what what we know.  The arm talent is still there, nothing is physically wrong long-term.    But we won't know anything more keeping the status quo, and there's literally no hope to be better with Hackett leading the clown show.

To be clear - if Russ is top 12-15 - it's still a horrible trade.   Because we were looking for 3 years of top 6-8 level play, and then more decline later.   But the current level of awful, well we know when apocalyptic level coaches leave...it's not quite so bad as we thought on the QB.     And TBH, that's a major reason why I want him gone now.   The sooner we take Hackett out, the sooner we let others step in - they may be no better, but they literally can't be worse.   And yes, we probably don't know until next season, with a new HC/OC and new OL, how much better Russ can be.   But IMO there's nothing lost by starting fresh now.    We already are known to have been ready to fire Hackett after the UK game - that completely invalidates the "can't scare off good HC candidates" - the damage is done there.   So there's really nothing to lose here, and can only gain culture/perception/locker wise. 

Edited November 30, 2022 by Broncofan

[The Helicopter]

6 hours ago, lomaxgrUK said:

I appreciate the optimism. I'm definitely in the 'hopeless' boat until I see something to offer me optimism. It's been that bad this year from Russell that it has, for my mind, erased the years of excellent play before it in terms of judging how he can contribute in the future.

The 14 points we are averaging has us as the worst Offensive team since the 2000 Browns. I don't get care if we have Lenny Walls, Marcus Nash, George Foster and Menelik Watson out there - Wilson has led the worst NFL Offense in 22 years.

Not long ago I was optimistic the offense would find their groove. I am now on the hopeless boat because this team has more and more holes and fewer resources to plug them. I get the injures, but there is no light from Russ. All I see is a $250M IOU running around the field. At this point, Hackett and Russ seem more like Dumb and Dumber. The problem I have with Paton is there seems to be no acknowledgement of calamity. He continues to be calm, cool and content to ride the season out as-is.

[AKRNA]

On 11/28/2022 at 9:54 AM, The Helicopter said:

I may be wrong, but @AKRNA and maybe another member of this forum thought Russ was washed up and this trade was not the right direction for the franchise. I don't know a lick about football, but I'm curious to go back and look at some of these conversations. I'm beginning to wonder if Paton made two serious blunders (Russ and Hackett) and he's in way over his head. It's something to be discussing. If we thought our franchise was in bad shape before, each week brings a new low to our culture. I'm unsure how players and coaches view this team as a desirable landing spot with our current and escalating issues.

I think you're right on the money. Those were huge mistakes and will cost this franchise 3-5 years if done right.

I'm a huge Paton fan as far as a personnel guy. If someone gives him his priorities he's fantastic at FA and the draft. He's not however the guy you want making large decisions by himself. A "Head of Football Operations" guy he's not. 

Given our love for the "Peter Principle"however we'll fire him for doing a bad job at things he wasn't hired for or qualified to do. That would be a shame because in his niche he's tough to beat.

[paul-mac]

The amount of hopium copium that's gonna be drunk on RW in the offseason is off the charts 

[French Fan]

Hackett was good with Rodgers and Rodgers is bad without him.

Wilson is bad and was so-so last year with Pete Carrol , Carrol is good with Geno Smith (yes Geno...)

The wedding between the 2 is not good. Fact !!

Who name the HC ?

Who chose the QB ?

The decision was made by Paton. 

Yes maybe 3/4 of GM would made the deal for RW.

But THE TEMPO for the expensive extension is the bigger mistake. For this we need to blame him and more....fire him.

If he named Hackett to trade for Rodgers , don't trade for RW. They are not the same QB.

The only option now is to build an OL for the years to come. We need to trade. Hamler/Jeudy/Sutton. Take as many  picks as you can and rebuild the offense in 2/3 years and overcome a RW trade.