Just Want A Title Posted November 1, 2022 Share Posted November 1, 2022 12 minutes ago, Louis Friend said: So again, they are playing. Yes. They are actually playing fairly well and showing improvement. I don't think you are assessing them objectively. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Louis Friend Posted November 1, 2022 Share Posted November 1, 2022 8 minutes ago, Just Want A Title said: Yes. They are actually playing fairly well and showing improvement. I don't think you are assessing them objectively. But I am. They are playing well, but I expected them to since they are good players. I don't think the way they are playing is due to development or progression from coach Pleasant. I think they are playing well because they are playing and good players. You cannot say they have "improved" because neither really played until now. Oruwariye has regressed, Will Harris is a bust and cannot find a spot that he can be productive at, they are playing Iffy out of position. Like Sllim said, we have a bunch of guys who don't fit together and haven't built a system that allows them to excel. And you cannot blame Holmes, we've seen the draft videos, he goes off of what the scouts and positional coaches tell him. He's not Millen pulling random player names out of his *** on draft day. At some point, you have see that every other position has a system/structure for what they want and you can see the development of players in that system. Our secondary is a hodge podge of players with no system, no structure, no improvement and apparently coached by Pleasant to go against from the team game plan and do what he wanted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sllim Pickens Posted November 3, 2022 Share Posted November 3, 2022 On 11/1/2022 at 2:03 PM, Louis Friend said: But I am. They are playing well, but I expected them to since they are good players. I don't think the way they are playing is due to development or progression from coach Pleasant. I think they are playing well because they are playing and good players. You cannot say they have "improved" because neither really played until now. Oruwariye has regressed, Will Harris is a bust and cannot find a spot that he can be productive at, they are playing Iffy out of position. Like Sllim said, we have a bunch of guys who don't fit together and haven't built a system that allows them to excel. And you cannot blame Holmes, we've seen the draft videos, he goes off of what the scouts and positional coaches tell him. He's not Millen pulling random player names out of his *** on draft day. At some point, you have see that every other position has a system/structure for what they want and you can see the development of players in that system. Our secondary is a hodge podge of players with no system, no structure, no improvement and apparently coached by Pleasant to go against from the team game plan and do what he wanted. I will say that I am not sure I see the bolded at any other position either, at least on D. A bunch of guys had good years last year but none seem to be progressing this year. The LB group is a mess and we keep running Anzalone out there even though he has been the worst rated starting LB for two years in a row now. Rodrigo is looking like a good piece but is it coaching or because he is a good smart player? Barnes has had a couple flashes but in general has not been good. The DL/Edge guys have all regressed this year. Hutch has 5.5 sacks and he and Anzalone are the only two with more than 1 sack on the team. But Hutch was the #2 overall pick because of talent and he seems to be getting by on talent while playing a different role than he played to make him the #2 pick. McNeil had a solid rookie year and has the exact same PFF grade this year but seems less impactful as well playing a different position. So likely its just his talent level driving him. Harris, J. Okwara, Brockers, etc have all been worse this year compared to last year. In general our defensive philosophy seems broken which is on Glenn. Its too bad because he showed a lot of promise last year but the overhaul to the system seems to be a bad choice and is not working out. I do hope whatever system we plan to run next year is obvious and we move on from players who don't fit that system. I feel like we went to a man cover focus to benefit Okudah which is great and all but Harris AO, Jacobs, Parker all did better in the zone scheme that made Okudah look ridiculous. I think the team as a whole would be better if we stuck with the same system but Okudah would still be looking like a bust. So maybe we trade Okudah while his value is up and then switch back. Or move on from everyone else at CB and replace with guys who excel at man. Whatever it is, we need to get guys that fit instead of just trying random new things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just Want A Title Posted November 3, 2022 Share Posted November 3, 2022 On 11/1/2022 at 2:03 PM, Louis Friend said: But I am. They are playing well, but I expected them to since they are good players. I don't think the way they are playing is due to development or progression from coach Pleasant. I think they are playing well because they are playing and good players. You cannot say they have "improved" because neither really played until now. Oruwariye has regressed, Will Harris is a bust and cannot find a spot that he can be productive at, they are playing Iffy out of position. Like Sllim said, we have a bunch of guys who don't fit together and haven't built a system that allows them to excel. And you cannot blame Holmes, we've seen the draft videos, he goes off of what the scouts and positional coaches tell him. He's not Millen pulling random player names out of his *** on draft day. At some point, you have see that every other position has a system/structure for what they want and you can see the development of players in that system. Our secondary is a hodge podge of players with no system, no structure, no improvement and apparently coached by Pleasant to go against from the team game plan and do what he wanted. The two biggest offenders, Will Harris and Amani Aruwariye, were drafted by by Bob Quinn in 2019. Coincidence? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sllim Pickens Posted November 3, 2022 Share Posted November 3, 2022 4 hours ago, Just Want A Title said: The two biggest offenders, Will Harris and Amani Aruwariye, were drafted by by Bob Quinn in 2019. Coincidence? That 2019 draft is brutal. Hock was the only good player and he wasnt great or worth where we picked him. Most of those guys are out of the league already. I think there are only 10 players left on the team that Quinn drafted Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just Want A Title Posted November 3, 2022 Share Posted November 3, 2022 56 minutes ago, Sllim Pickens said: That 2019 draft is brutal. Hock was the only good player and he wasnt great or worth where we picked him. Most of those guys are out of the league already. I think there are only 10 players left on the team that Quinn drafted I know folks are frustrated but the thing to remember is that Brad Holmes had Tracy Walker, Taylor Decker, Frank Ragnow and Jonah Jackson are the only legitimate NFL players on the roster drafted by Bob Quinn. Jeff Okudah could be included if he continues to play well but maybe shouldn't because they couldn't develop his talent. It wasn't just 2019 that was the problem. Nobody wanted to admit that this was a true complete roster overhaul. How many later-round rookies came performed like Amon Ra St Brown or Malcom Rodriguez under Bob Quinn? Did Bob Quinn have his version of Jerry Hughes? Brad Holmes has done a solid job of drafting and getting us through cap hell. I think he needs at least one more draft and one year of legitimate free agency participation before the Lions have the talent to at least be competitive. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sllim Pickens Posted November 3, 2022 Share Posted November 3, 2022 2 hours ago, Just Want A Title said: I know folks are frustrated but the thing to remember is that Brad Holmes had Tracy Walker, Taylor Decker, Frank Ragnow and Jonah Jackson are the only legitimate NFL players on the roster drafted by Bob Quinn. Jeff Okudah could be included if he continues to play well but maybe shouldn't because they couldn't develop his talent. It wasn't just 2019 that was the problem. Nobody wanted to admit that this was a true complete roster overhaul. How many later-round rookies came performed like Amon Ra St Brown or Malcom Rodriguez under Bob Quinn? Did Bob Quinn have his version of Jerry Hughes? Brad Holmes has done a solid job of drafting and getting us through cap hell. I think he needs at least one more draft and one year of legitimate free agency participation before the Lions have the talent to at least be competitive. To be fair, the 2016 draft was actually pretty good with Decker, A'Shawn, Glasgow, and Dwayne Washington. Two of them left for solid contracts and netted comp picks and Decker is a top 15 LT in the league. 2017 had an awful first two rounds but then had Golladay and Agnew who we decided to not resign, but did net us a couple comp picks because of that. Jalen Reeves Maybin was a solid special teams player which is good for his pick position. Golladay was pretty much Quin's version of ARSB but couldnt stay healthy and now is trash. The 2018 class had two really solid guys in Ragnow and Walker that have been resigned. Thats all that came from there but thats actually a pretty solid draft. 2019 is the last class that would still be on rookie deals and had Hock and then poop. AO was good last year but absolutely trash this year along with Harris, Tavai, Fulgam, Ty Johnson (at least he is still in the league but not good), Nauta, and PJ Johnson is really the only horrible draft that Quin had. Hock would have been decent if drafted in the late 1st or 2nd but hard to be worth the draft pick when selected so high. But still, one viable NFL player. 2020 Had Okudah who is looking solid and has had injuries derail his first three years but looks very much like a solid player. Swift if he can stay healthy is a stud but I know availability is important. Jonah Jackson has been great, Cephus and Stenberg were decent depth, and Pensini was solid before retiring. This was actually a very good draft if we ever get a full year out of Swift. In the NFL, rosters turnover quick, so if a guy makes it to year 4 its a solid pick, if they resign its a really solid pick and if they get a big contract/starter then its a great pick. So given there is only 2 years worth of players on their rookie deals and 7 of the guys from those years are here is a solid haul. But that 2019 class will likely go down as one of the worst ever unless AO or Harris turn it around ASAP. To be fair, Holmes has a similar hit rate as Quin with Sewell, ARSB, and McNeil being good from 2021 so far and the other 4 being busts and 2021 and 2022 is way to early to tell but we have yet to see one of the picks, another has 2 average games, 2 haven't seen any PT and 1 is not on the roster Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Louis Friend Posted December 2, 2022 Share Posted December 2, 2022 (edited) Don't know where else to put this but here. Here is the Lions' DVOA rankings for just the month of November (since firing Pleasant). Overall: 14th ----------------- Pass O: 15th Run O: 13th ----------------- Pass D 😧 8th Run D 😧19th Our pass defense was ranked 32nd (1-6 record) when firing Pleasant. It now ranks 19th (3-1 record). That is quite a turn around in 4 weeks. Maybe Pleasant was the problem and not the sacrificial lamb people made him out to be. It was a very likable coach, but he wasn't doing his job. Much like Anthony Lynn last season.. Edited December 2, 2022 by Louis Friend Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karnage84 Posted December 2, 2022 Share Posted December 2, 2022 11 minutes ago, Louis Friend said: Don't know where else to put this but here. Here is the Lions' DVOA rankings for just the month of November (since firing Pleasant). Overall: 14th ----------------- Pass O: 15th Run O: 13th ----------------- Pass D 😧 8th Run D 😧19th Our pass defense was ranked 32nd (1-6 record) when firing Pleasant. It now ranks 19th (3-1 record). That is quite a turn around in 4 weeks. Maybe Pleasant was the problem and not the sacrificial lamb people made him out to be. It was a very likable coach, but he wasn't doing his job. Much like Anthony Lynn last season.. Would a positions coach really have THAT much of an influence on the overall play of the defense? Lynn was the coordinator so I can understand how that would work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Louis Friend Posted December 2, 2022 Share Posted December 2, 2022 (edited) 13 minutes ago, Karnage84 said: Would a positions coach really have THAT much of an influence on the overall play of the defense? Lynn was the coordinator so I can understand how that would work. I'm just discussing pass defense. 32nd with him. 8th without him. Currently 19th overall. Pleasant wasn't just the DB coach, he was the "passing game coordinator". I'm sure Aaron Glenn and MCDC gave Pleasant chances throughout the season to turn things around. Firing a likable young coach is not ideal. But the proof is in the pudding. Edited December 2, 2022 by Louis Friend Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karnage84 Posted December 2, 2022 Share Posted December 2, 2022 3 minutes ago, Louis Friend said: I'm just discussing pass defense. 32nd with him. 8th without him. Currently 19th overall. It can't be nothing - Glenn was a DB's coach. I wonder if he's spending more time in the DB room and its helping. It really is something to see such a change. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Louis Friend Posted December 2, 2022 Share Posted December 2, 2022 6 minutes ago, Karnage84 said: It can't be nothing - Glenn was a DB's coach. I wonder if he's spending more time in the DB room and its helping. It really is something to see such a change. I don't know if they ever replaced Pleasant, so I would assume Glenn's been overseeing those responsibilities. There was chatter that Glover Quinn was working with the team in some capacity but I don't think that ever materialized. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sllim Pickens Posted December 2, 2022 Share Posted December 2, 2022 40 minutes ago, Louis Friend said: Don't know where else to put this but here. Here is the Lions' DVOA rankings for just the month of November (since firing Pleasant). Overall: 14th ----------------- Pass O: 15th Run O: 13th ----------------- Pass D 😧 8th Run D 😧19th Our pass defense was ranked 32nd (1-6 record) when firing Pleasant. It now ranks 19th (3-1 record). That is quite a turn around in 4 weeks. Maybe Pleasant was the problem and not the sacrificial lamb people made him out to be. It was a very likable coach, but he wasn't doing his job. Much like Anthony Lynn last season.. That is quite interesting, and definitely more telling than I had expected. We have had a good turnaround which is nice to see for AG. I am assuming now that Pleasant had multiple weeks of not doing the gameplan and they finally were fed up with it. It makes a lot more sense on the timing of the firing if they tried to work with him but he just wasn't doing as they asked. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Louis Friend Posted December 2, 2022 Share Posted December 2, 2022 2 minutes ago, Sllim Pickens said: That is quite interesting, and definitely more telling than I had expected. We have had a good turnaround which is nice to see for AG. I am assuming now that Pleasant had multiple weeks of not doing the gameplan and they finally were fed up with it. It makes a lot more sense on the timing of the firing if they tried to work with him but he just wasn't doing as they asked. I still think Pleasant can be a good coach in this league, but you cannot have one coach go against the rest of the coaching decisions. You cannot allow him to go rogue and do his own thing at the detriment to the team. I applaud Campbell for making the tough decisions and cutting guys when necessary. Even if unpopular at the time. Stark contrast to WCF. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nnivolcm Posted December 2, 2022 Share Posted December 2, 2022 2 hours ago, Louis Friend said: Don't know where else to put this but here. Here is the Lions' DVOA rankings for just the month of November (since firing Pleasant). Overall: 14th ----------------- Pass O: 15th Run O: 13th ----------------- Pass D 😧 8th Run D 😧19th Our pass defense was ranked 32nd (1-6 record) when firing Pleasant. It now ranks 19th (3-1 record). That is quite a turn around in 4 weeks. Maybe Pleasant was the problem and not the sacrificial lamb people made him out to be. It was a very likable coach, but he wasn't doing his job. Much like Anthony Lynn last season.. Here's the list of QBs we've faced over the last 4 games: The ghost of Aaron Rodgers Justin Fields Daniel Jones Josh Allen with an injured elbow The defense has seemed to turn around a bit since the firing, but we've also faced some pretty poor QB play for most of the month. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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