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Big Nasties - IDL Discussion


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3 minutes ago, Scoundrel said:

In a 3-4 I consider it an IDL position yes

Ok then, I just disagree that Mike Morris would be at his best as a 3/4 DE.  Could argue Carter, Tuipulotu, Ika, Mazi Smith and Bresee could all be a 3/4 DE if really asked to do so.  Not sure Morris would be ideal there, sure he could do it I guess but why.  Kind of like Dont'a Hightower, that dude was a mountain back in the day but why move him from LB and the edge when he was already good there and put him as a 3/4 DE?  Same could be said for Tuipulotu, would be a total waste of his abilities I feel.   And Morris is even bigger than Hightower is and Hightower was giant coming out of Bama, or at least looked it.  Zach Harrison I could see maybe putting as a 3/4 DE if he puts on some weight since his sack production leaves a lot to be desired but he can still play and really push the pocket.  

 

 

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7 minutes ago, Ozzy said:

Ok then, I just disagree that Mike Morris would be at his best as a 3/4 DE.  Could argue Carter, Tuipulotu, Ika, Mazi Smith and Bresee could all be a 3/4 DE if really asked to do so.  Not sure Morris would be ideal there, sure he could do it I guess but why.  Kind of like Dont'a Hightower, that dude was a mountain back in the day but why move him from LB and the edge when he was already good there and put him as a 3/4 DE?  Same could be said for Tuipulotu, would be a total waste of his abilities I feel.   And Morris is even bigger than Hightower is and Hightower was giant coming out of Bama, or at least looked it.  Zach Harrison I could see maybe putting as a 3/4 DE if he puts on some weight since his sack production leaves a lot to be desired but he can still play and really push the pocket.  

 

 

I didn’t say he would be at his best there did I? Also would depend on the scheme usage at 3/4 end. Two gapping I would not advise it of course but 1 gap penetrating they could be effective.

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There’s enough teams running multiple defenses these days, I can see the justification for listing 5T’s with the IDL.   He may not play there full time, but he has the skillset to dominate in subpackage in that role.  

Edited by RedGold
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5 hours ago, Daniel said:

Just to be clear, I don't think Carter is as good a prospect as Anderson.  Anderson hasn't performed as well this year as last, but he still looks like a top level pass rusher, and last year he was straight up special.  Carter can be, but he hasn't been on that level for the entirety of the season.  Still great, still the best in the class from what I've seen, but pass rushers are just worth more than 3 techs.

I feel like a lot of people don't know the full story with Carter this season and are mostly looking at the stats. He injured his ankle against Oregon in the opener, only played about 30 snaps over the next 3 games (obviously not at full strength), and then injured his knee against Missouri when he was finally getting healthy. The Tennessee game is the main thing you should be judging him on given that he has had almost no healthy snaps the entire season.

 

That's not to say he should go ahead of Anderson, but holding his performance this season against him doesn't make any sense.

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9 minutes ago, nixa said:

I feel like a lot of people don't know the full story with Carter this season and are mostly looking at the stats. He injured his ankle against Oregon in the opener, only played about 30 snaps over the next 3 games (obviously not at full strength), and then injured his knee against Missouri when he was finally getting healthy. The Tennessee game is the main thing you should be judging him on given that he has had almost no healthy snaps the entire season.

 

That's not to say he should go ahead of Anderson, but holding his performance this season against him doesn't make any sense.

Agreed, and Carter was amazing against Tennessee which is a very good offensive line.  Carter dominated that game and as long as he shows up a few more times in big games that is all one really needs to see from him.  The injuries and lack of playing time is a huge reason for the lack of production obviously.  

 

 

 

58 minutes ago, RedGold said:

There’s enough teams running multiple defenses these days, I can see the justification for listing 5T’s with the IDL.   He may not play there full time, but he has the skillset to dominate in subpackage in that role.  

Will Anderson Jr plays DT at times in a sub package on third down in obvious passing situations, does not mean he is a IDL.  Same can be said for ZaDarius Smith in the NFL.  Just because they can move to that spot does not mean they should be listed as a interior DL.

 

 

 

These are DE types who could no question play DE in a 3/4 and might end up doing so in this years draft.  Mike Morris to be is not in that list because he would first and foremost be a 3/4 OLB or a 4/3 DE way before he is a 3/4 DE.


Zach Harrison Ohio State
Colby Wooden Auburn RS JR
Keion White Georgia Tech RS
TJ Franklin Baylor
Byron Young Alabama
Adetomiwa Adebawore Northwestern
Tavius Robinson Ole Miss
Justin Eboigbe Alabama
 

 

 

These are DTs who could all play 3/4 DE if asked to do so, some would be better than others obviously.   Stills is the real interesting one, he has been an awesome pass rusher for a long time but not sure he is your typical NFL 3/4 DE and not sure he would do get in a 4/3 as a DT but who knows.  

Jalen Carter Georgia JR
Siaki Ika Baylor RS JR
Bryan Bresee Clemson JR
Mazi Smith Michigan
Calijah Kancey Pitt RS JR
Gervon Dexter Florida JR
Keeanu Benton Wisconsin
Brandon Dorlus Oregon RS JR
Dante Stills West Virginia RS
Jalen Redmond Oklahoma RS JR
PJ Mustipher Penn State RS
DJ Dale Alabama
Jaxon Player Baylor
Trajan Jeffcoat Missouri
Keondre Coburn Texas
Tyler Davis Clemson
Cory Durden NC State RS
Jayson Ademiola Notre Dame RS
Isaiah Lee Iowa State RS
Caleb Sanders South Dakota State
Howard Cross III Notre Dame
Noah Shannon Iowa RS
Jerron Cage Ohio State RS
Nesta Jade Silvera Arizona State
Raymond Vohasek UNC

 

 

Sure if one had a list of 3/4 OLB types who could play 3/4 DE sure Mike Morris would be at the top of that list but that list would almost include no one else on it honestly because for most it is not a fit and only reason it could work if he had to with Morris is his size.  
 

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Yeah I mean,  I don’t list my prospects as basic DE or IDL.     I list them as what their skillset can translate to in terms of 9T, 7T, 5T, 1T, 3T.   Players of different skill sets get grouped together too easily by just calling them as DE or IDL.  
 

0 issues with including Morris as IDL in a one gap 3/4.  Or even just as a 5T defense that is in subpackages 80+% of the time. 

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1 hour ago, RedGold said:

Yeah I mean,  I don’t list my prospects as basic DE or IDL.     I list them as what their skillset can translate to in terms of 9T, 7T, 5T, 1T, 3T.   Players of different skill sets get grouped together too easily by just calling them as DE or IDL.  
 

0 issues with including Morris as IDL in a one gap 3/4.  Or even just as a 5T defense that is in subpackages 80+% of the time. 

To me it is over complicating the issue with a bunch of terms.  There are not multiple OL positions depending on the scheme, it is left tackle and right tackle, left guard and right guard.  One does not have all these terms of defenders unless it is a 3/4 and then it seems exotic and different.  You seriously have a list of guys that are 9 technique only, 7 technique, 5 technique etc for the up coming draft and years beyond?  Yeah I have lists FR-SR class, all positions, but sorry I have a 3/4 OLB spot and a typical OLB but that is about it for variation, the rest are DE, DT etc.

 

You either rush as a standup outside linebacker or a guy with your hand on the ground.  You either rush from the inside with edge players opposite you or you rush on the outside with no one to one side or the other.   You are either good against the run or you are not, you can hold the edge or you cannot, you can stand up dudes or you cannot, you get a push or you cannot.  

 

 

What a few years back, Pat Williams who came to Minnesota from Buffalo and on Buffalo he was a NT in a 3/4, switch to a DT in a 4/3 next to Kevin Williams.  You think it mattered that much?  Dude still was a great player and still was an interior defensive lineman.  He played in a different system in Minnesota but ultimately was the same type of player just was a little different who was next to him at times.  But sure defenses change so much now a days and guys move around honestly none of it matters really, but fact is you could take literally any good solid DE in the NFL if he is 270+ and put him as a 3/4 DE in passing situations...  

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5 minutes ago, Ozzy said:

To me it is over complicating the issue with a bunch of terms.  There are not multiple OL positions depending on the scheme, it is left tackle and right tackle, left guard and right guard.  One does not have all these terms of defenders unless it is a 3/4 and then it seems exotic and different.  You seriously have a list of guys that are 9 technique only, 7 technique, 5 technique etc for the up coming draft and years beyond?  Yeah I have lists FR-SR class, all positions, but sorry I have a 3/4 OLB spot and a typical OLB but that is about it for variation, the rest are DE, DT etc.

 

You either rush as a standup outside linebacker or a guy with your hand on the ground.  You either rush from the inside with edge players opposite you or you rush on the outside with no one to one side or the other.   You are either good against the run or you are not, you can hold the edge or you cannot, you can stand up dudes or you cannot, you get a push or you cannot.  

 

 

What a few years back, Pat Williams who came to Minnesota from Buffalo and on Buffalo he was a NT in a 3/4, switch to a DT in a 4/3 next to Kevin Williams.  You think it mattered that much?  Dude still was a great player and still was an interior defensive lineman.  He played in a different system in Minnesota but ultimately was the same type of player just was a little different who was next to him at times.  But sure defenses change so much now a days and guys move around honestly none of it matters really, but fact is you could take literally any good solid DE in the NFL if he is 270+ and put him as a 3/4 DE in passing situations...  

Yeah I grade my Edge defenders and Interior defenders on which gaps/roles they can succeed at.    I value versatility on the DL.  To me,  calling them Edge/IDL.  You group together too many guys of different skillsets…  if you fall into a big board like that,  you rank guys of limited skillsets below some guys who can probably help you in multiple ways. 

I feel like Pat Williams improves my view point lol,  you are using two different terms for him and my viewpoint he is a 1T.  Which he played in both schemes.  And he was dominant at it.   Him changing schemes didn’t do anything,  he was doing the same thing. 
 

Not really worth arguing..  just think calling them IDL and edge you don’t break the different skillsets enough.  
 

As far as the OL.  Yeah you don’t really see offensive lineman changing positions based of formation, that’s not really a good argument.  

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1 hour ago, RedGold said:

Yeah I grade my Edge defenders and Interior defenders on which gaps/roles they can succeed at.    I value versatility on the DL.  To me,  calling them Edge/IDL.  You group together too many guys of different skillsets…  if you fall into a big board like that,  you rank guys of limited skillsets below some guys who can probably help you in multiple ways. 

I feel like Pat Williams improves my view point lol,  you are using two different terms for him and my viewpoint he is a 1T.  Which he played in both schemes.  And he was dominant at it.   Him changing schemes didn’t do anything,  he was doing the same thing. 
 

Not really worth arguing..  just think calling them IDL and edge you don’t break the different skillsets enough.  
 

As far as the OL.  Yeah you don’t really see offensive lineman changing positions based of formation, that’s not really a good argument.  

You are correct 

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7 hours ago, Scoundrel said:

 

 

Right now I would have him top 5, 10 at worst, no way he falls to 15.  Currently have the Steelers getting him and they could possibly even pass on Jalen Carter to do it because Tuli can be a edge rusher and Carter cannot, they need another edge guy because are clearly a totally different team without TJ Watt out there.

 

Agreed Tuli is an amazing player, no EDGE defender is playing better than him right now and I still say putting him as a 3/4 DE is a total waste of time, he is a edge player all the way be it in a 3/4 OLB or a 4/3 DE.  Way too athletically gifted to put inside unless one wants to play the game of pretending a 3/4 DE does not have a rusher on both sides of him. Or pretend that ZaDarius Smith and others are 3/4 DEs because they play it on a passing situations from time to time, they are edge guys that are moved around like all great edge defenders, does not mean they are interior DL. 

 

7 hours ago, Ragnarok said:

If I'm doing big boards, I just have Edge and DI.  Within that I note 3-4 OLB, 4-3 DE scheme versatile, NT, 3T, etc.

You group all those positions under DI?  Do what you want man, to me that just seems odd.  How is 'edge' not a 3/4 OLB?   You mean 3/4 DE?  Even that, come on a 3/4 OLB is basically a DE in a 4/3 that might be a little smaller and more athletic but still almost any 4/3 DE could play a 3/4 OLB, sure some might not be as good like Danielle Hunter is now but he is getting a hang of it of late after a slow start.  Is a bit different in terms of what they are asked but an edge guy is an edge guy.  You are outside and have no one rushing to the left or to the right of you depending on the side.  The rest is all just semantics.

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What the Steelers look for in drafting their DE is at least 6'5 and 300lbs.  Can they take a 6'5 275 player with a great motor?  Yes.  Done it before and will do it again.

 

Given that Breese, Dexter, Murphy( if he gains weight), Wilson ( weight), Wooden and Tuipulotu mostly fit the bill.  i am sure there are others but I am too lazy this morning to look them up.

 

I am just tossing this out there as info for the grist mill.  The Steelers rarely play a straight 3-4 defense anymore.  It is generally a hybrid with 2 DTs playing 2 gap( formally DEs) and 2 OLB.  I would rather see them go to the old NE style or Baltimore style of hybrid that has a pass rusher and some heavies in the middle but...

 

 

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