hitnhope Posted November 24, 2022 Share Posted November 24, 2022 The biggest flaw in your plan is that you ignore the biggest issue. What good is the cap space and draft picks with Gute as GM? Gute gone needs to be step 1. He has bungled most of his moves and has drafted poorly. If you want to rebuild you need a new GM with some ability to draft and build a team. Gute has shown that he doesn't possess this ability. He's made a couple good picks in Jaire, Gary and Jenkins. The rest is a wasteland of below average to poor picks. He has left big gaps in the roster each year that kills the overall chances. Our ST and WR rooms show this drastically. He has invested a 2nd round pick in and average RB, a 1st round pick on a replacement level player at safety, 2 3rd round picks on TE with one being out of the league and the other a replacement level player. While its too early to judge the players overall he invested a 1st round pick at ILB and another on an overaged DT who doesn't see the field. The Wyatt pick could be justified if he were 2 years younger or showed more on the field this year. He has not found much over the years with his later round picks. I've ignored the Love trade up and pick because that has been beat to death and speaks for itself. If that pick was made 3 years later it would have promise bt as timed was foolish. Especially if he was going to lack courage and give AR the contract he did last year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtsportsfan1 Posted November 24, 2022 Share Posted November 24, 2022 Lets start the rebuild by getting rid of Lafleur and Gutey and hire Sean Payton for coach and anybody but Gutey as Gm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brit Pack Posted November 24, 2022 Share Posted November 24, 2022 Don't get the Gutey hate. Lovely bloke. Far more aggressive GM than we have had in the past, was really handicapped with the Covid cap reduction. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NFLGURU Posted November 24, 2022 Share Posted November 24, 2022 On 11/21/2022 at 7:16 AM, PackFan13 said: I just threw up in my mouth. 30 million for a guy that looks bad in pre season. No thanks They aren't doing that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hitnhope Posted November 24, 2022 Share Posted November 24, 2022 36 minutes ago, Brit Pack said: Don't get the Gutey hate. Lovely bloke. Far more aggressive GM than we have had in the past, was really handicapped with the Covid cap reduction. He is a poor drafter and has not built complete teams. The major reason for his winning record is players procured by his predecessor. He has fouled up the QB situation from his start, consistently doing things that hurt the team with his QB decisions. We aren't going anywhere under his guidance. Pull the scab off now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachbuns Posted November 25, 2022 Share Posted November 25, 2022 1 hour ago, hitnhope said: He is a poor drafter and has not built complete teams. The major reason for his winning record is players procured by his predecessor. He has fouled up the QB situation from his start, consistently doing things that hurt the team with his QB decisions. We aren't going anywhere under his guidance. Pull the scab off now. We all get you don't like Gute and want to see him gone now. Problem being for you, MM and the Packer board of directors don't see it that way. All the ranting and raving about wanting Gute gone is wasted energy, time and thoughts ... it just aint happening. Pee and moan until you're blue in the face, he'll be the Packer GM for years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hitnhope Posted November 25, 2022 Share Posted November 25, 2022 (edited) 23 minutes ago, coachbuns said: We all get you don't like Gute and want to see him gone now. Problem being for you, MM and the Packer board of directors don't see it that way. All the ranting and raving about wanting Gute gone is wasted energy, time and thoughts ... it just aint happening. Pee and moan until you're blue in the face, he'll be the Packer GM for years. Then we won't win anything for years. If the fan base doesn't demand better they probably will not get it. The BOD is business focused do you know what Murphy and the BOD think of the situation? Are you a memner? You may be right that we will have to wait until Murphy ages out and a replacement figures out the problems. But what a waste of time. If you don't like reading my accurate posts about the situation than ignore them. I really don't care. I got the same push back on this board with some of his earlier drafts. I heard the same feedback from this board regarding the handling of the QB position for several years running. I read countless bad takes on this board so if you don't like mine then simply add them to the pile. My stance only gets proven more correct as time has passed. There will come a time where most will also catch up on Gute's performance. This board criticizes the QB instead of those in charge. Would you turn down money or power in your job? Would you blame the lack of SB wins over the last decade on the teams best player over that span or other places that aren't nearly as good? People here seem to blame the employee's when management screws up. I often wonder if that matches their stance in their personal lives. Edited November 25, 2022 by hitnhope Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brit Pack Posted November 25, 2022 Share Posted November 25, 2022 14 hours ago, hitnhope said: He is a poor drafter and has not built complete teams. The major reason for his winning record is players procured by his predecessor. He has fouled up the QB situation from his start, consistently doing things that hurt the team with his QB decisions. We aren't going anywhere under his guidance. Pull the scab off now. I disagree. What was procured by the predecessor is on mark with what Gutey has procured over the past few years in the draft. Gutey much more aggressive in the draft in terms of moving up and around the draft and has a good record: 2018 got an additional 1st rounder and Jaire as well as MVS = a good draft 2019 turned that 1st rounder into Gary, also got Savage (not a fan) and Jenkins = good draft 2020 got Love, Dillon, Degura, Runyan and Garvin – take out Love and = average draft 2021/2022 both two early to sayTT's last four drafts2017 Kevin King, Aaron Jones and Jamall Williams = good draft2016 Clark, Fackrell, Martinez, Lowry = good draft 2015 Ty Montgomery = poor draft 2014 Ha Ha, Adams, Richard Rodgers, Corey Linsley = great draft Where I also prefer Gutey his also his aggressivness in FA and willingness to try options. Certainly we have picked up much more players than his predecessor. The cap going down has really hampered his efforts in the last few years and yet he has managed to re-sign the best talent. In no way has he been bad for Green Bay. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hitnhope Posted November 25, 2022 Share Posted November 25, 2022 I guess we can just disagree. Matching against TT's last 4 years isn't the best bar. He had a bad last couple years and should have retired earlier. 1-2 players who see playing time per draft simply isn't enough. We certainly haven't got good ST contributions from the back half of these drafts either. 2018 = Jaire and not much. MVS is an NFL player, but not an above average player. 1 good player is not a good draft. 2019 = High pick of Gary has yielded average return to date. He is a good player now, but got very little out of him 1st 2 years compared to others drafted in his area of that draft. Savage was a bad pick. He simply has never been a good player for us. While we thought he showed potential early none of it was realized and the last 2 years he belonged on the bench. Jenkins is Gute's best pick relative to draft position. Not an impact position but his flexibility has made that a very good pick. 2020 = Poor draft. The only contributor is Dillon. We invested far too high a pick at a non-impact position for a backup RB. We would have been far better off resigning Williams and using that pick in a better fashion. The rest of those guys are JAG's 2021 = should be seeing some dividends from this draft this year. Stokes injury gives him a pass. Myers has been a below average center. Had a need and passed on a much better Center in Creed Humphrey. Rodgers has already been cut. 2022 = Too early to tell, but our investment was at non-premier position and an overaged DL who has not seen the field. Not a good start on that pick thus far. Gute showed aggressiveness early in getting the 2 Smiths. He still has left ST, TE and the WR rooms barren. The interior OL play has also been very poor the entire year. Beyond this you ignored the biggest problem Gute has had. His management and handling of the QB position has been terrible. He drafted Love too early starting the problem. Then quitting on his plan and giving AR the ridiculous contract last year should be the final straw. He has set this team back. They aren't good to win with what they have and can't improve after giving AR the huge chunk of the cap without and escape. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brit Pack Posted November 25, 2022 Share Posted November 25, 2022 3 hours ago, hitnhope said: I guess we can just disagree. Matching against TT's last 4 years isn't the best bar. He had a bad last couple years and should have retired earlier. 1-2 players who see playing time per draft simply isn't enough. We certainly haven't got good ST contributions from the back half of these drafts either. 2018 = Jaire and not much. MVS is an NFL player, but not an above average player. 1 good player is not a good draft. 2019 = High pick of Gary has yielded average return to date. He is a good player now, but got very little out of him 1st 2 years compared to others drafted in his area of that draft. Savage was a bad pick. He simply has never been a good player for us. While we thought he showed potential early none of it was realized and the last 2 years he belonged on the bench. Jenkins is Gute's best pick relative to draft position. Not an impact position but his flexibility has made that a very good pick. 2020 = Poor draft. The only contributor is Dillon. We invested far too high a pick at a non-impact position for a backup RB. We would have been far better off resigning Williams and using that pick in a better fashion. The rest of those guys are JAG's 2021 = should be seeing some dividends from this draft this year. Stokes injury gives him a pass. Myers has been a below average center. Had a need and passed on a much better Center in Creed Humphrey. Rodgers has already been cut. 2022 = Too early to tell, but our investment was at non-premier position and an overaged DL who has not seen the field. Not a good start on that pick thus far. Gute showed aggressiveness early in getting the 2 Smiths. He still has left ST, TE and the WR rooms barren. The interior OL play has also been very poor the entire year. Beyond this you ignored the biggest problem Gute has had. His management and handling of the QB position has been terrible. He drafted Love too early starting the problem. Then quitting on his plan and giving AR the ridiculous contract last year should be the final straw. He has set this team back. They aren't good to win with what they have and can't improve after giving AR the huge chunk of the cap without and escape. If you factor in that any draft year 254 on average are selected and out of those somewhere in the region of only 23 to 34 players (depending on the year) are studs, thus only about 10% of the entire draft, and if a team manages to unearth one of those studs they have done very well. If they pick up a stud and a player that plays out his rookie deal with the team while contributing like an MVS or a Jamall Williams they have done good. The reality is every GM picks way more crap players than good or great players, it's just the nature of the draft. TT early draft were good to great ones but again featured only two to three starters from each 2005 Rodgers and Collins 2006 Hawk and Jennings 2007 James Jones and Crosby 2008 Nelson, Finley, Sitton 2009 BJ, Clay and Lang Gutey, beyond the big boys he signed, was also very aggressive in getting little guys that fill vital holes e.g. Campbell, Douglas, Nixon, Merc Lewis, Ervin, Mercileus, Dennis Kelly, Veldheer, Reed, O'Donnell - these were all veteran players who came over on the cheap and they have contributed. These are the kind of signings our previous GM never really went out and got. He has done well with street FA's too like Lazard, Tonyan, Nijman, Krys Barnes, Rudy Ford. Once Gutey has cap space he will use it and bring in big name talent again, he isn't affraid to do so. With the cap as tight as it is with us there will be holes in the team. The QB one is interesting. I hated the Love pick, wanted Higgins or Pitman or a trade up for Jefferson. IF Love is the reason Rodgers went back to back MVP then you can't argue with the choice too much. Also if Rodgers hadn't gone back to back MVP at that stage his trajectory was downward and bringing in a QB early would have been prudent. The contract is a tough one as well. Do you trade away a back to back MVP? Tough call! Once you decide to keep him he has the leverage and Rodgers played it well. I recall at the time it was no brainer for me to keep Rodgers, I know hate the fact that we did, part influenced by the fact he blanked me at The Grove and since then he has played crap as a result. Having said that the cap hits (not the dead cap hits) for the first three years of his deal are very team friendly $28m 2022, $31m 2023 and $40m 2024. Overall I don't see Gutey as a problem. I see him as a very decent GM. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hitnhope Posted November 26, 2022 Share Posted November 26, 2022 50 minutes ago, Brit Pack said: Overall I don't see Gutey as a problem. I see h Amazing how people can look at the same thing and see something entirely different. The problem with Gute's drafts isn't that he only got 2 - 3 very good players. the problem is that we arent getting much contribution from any of the others. TT's drafts were much stronger in that he had both more hits and more contributions from the later rounds. He has had to be more active in FA largely because he has missed on so many of the draft picks. We have always done well with the undrafted class'. I don't think we are seeing any more of a contribution now. So Gute's leadership has yielded teams with huge holes in them be it special teams talent or offensive talent. He seems more like he is fighting to keep a job rather than win a Super Bowl. With the cap situation he has built up he has strangled the future of this team. He built that cap situation while still not effectively filling holes that would have given us a better chance at a SB win. I add all of this up and see the type of GM who never wins the big games. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachbuns Posted November 26, 2022 Share Posted November 26, 2022 23 hours ago, hitnhope said: Then we won't win anything for years. If the fan base doesn't demand better they probably will not get it. The BOD is business focused do you know what Murphy and the BOD think of the situation? Are you a memner? You may be right that we will have to wait until Murphy ages out and a replacement figures out the problems. But what a waste of time. If you don't like reading my accurate posts about the situation than ignore them. I really don't care. I got the same push back on this board with some of his earlier drafts. I heard the same feedback from this board regarding the handling of the QB position for several years running. I read countless bad takes on this board so if you don't like mine then simply add them to the pile. My stance only gets proven more correct as time has passed. There will come a time where most will also catch up on Gute's performance. This board criticizes the QB instead of those in charge. Would you turn down money or power in your job? Would you blame the lack of SB wins over the last decade on the teams best player over that span or other places that areifn't nearly as good? People here seem to blame the employee's when management screws up. I often wonder if that matches their stance in their personal lives. You lost me right away on your " if you don't like my accurate posts then ignore them ". LOL .. accurate only in your mind. Carry on. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachbuns Posted November 26, 2022 Share Posted November 26, 2022 25 minutes ago, hitnhope said: Amazing how people can look at the same thing and see something entirely different. The problem with Gute's drafts isn't that he only got 2 - 3 very good players. the problem is that we arent getting much contribution from any of the others. TT's drafts were much stronger in that he had both more hits and more contributions from the later rounds. He has had to be more active in FA largely because he has missed on so many of the draft picks. We have always done well with the undrafted class'. I don't think we are seeing any more of a contribution now. So Gute's leadership has yielded teams with huge holes in them be it special teams talent or offensive talent. He seems more like he is fighting to keep a job rather than win a Super Bowl. With the cap situation he has built up he has strangled the future of this team. He built that cap situation while still not effectively filling holes that would have given us a better chance at a SB win. I add all of this up and see the type of GM who never wins the big games. Add it up .. the past few years it's been questionable coaching, poor player performance in the clutch and some bad breaks. The GM doesn't have a darn thing to do with with winning or losing a big game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hitnhope Posted November 26, 2022 Share Posted November 26, 2022 22 minutes ago, coachbuns said: Add it up .. the past few years it's been questionable coaching, poor player performance in the clutch and some bad breaks. The GM doesn't have a darn thing to do with with winning or losing a big game. He isn't responsible for the lack of talent on ST? He doesn't need to have a returner who can actually catch the punt? He isn't responsible for the talent level on offense that leads to your OL getting run through like a sieve? The offense totally reliant on 1 wide receiver with poor talent beyond Adams? The GM has no input on/with the Coaching staff? A team is what its record is. We are 4 - 7. Are you saying that the GM has no responsibility for the talent level on the team? All of the problems with the Packers are coaching related and none of the problems are due to the talent on hand? Your response is ridiculous. I get that my posts aren't very positive regarding the leadership team, and many fans don't want to read that. Sorry, some people need to live in the real world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squire12 Posted November 26, 2022 Share Posted November 26, 2022 59 minutes ago, hitnhope said: A team is what its record is. We are 4 - 7. Are you saying that the GM has no responsibility for the talent level on the team? All of the problems with the Packers are coaching related and none of the problems are due to the talent on hand? Did you miss the 2019, 2020 and 2021 seasons? In case you missed it, GB posted the following 2019: 13-3 and #2 seed 2020: 13-3 and #1 seed 2021: 13-4 and #1 seed I guess the person responsible for assembling the teams capable of doing that gets 0 credit 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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