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Saints must admit mistakes… Rebuild:


whodatworm23
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So were 3-6… You are what your record says you are. The Saints are a BAD football team.

 

Its time for Mrs. Benson to make some tough decisions… really tough!

 

The entire Saints front office structure should be evaluated. GM Mickey Loomis is the longest tenured NFL GM in the league and is beloved in New Orleans but the day has come to question whether or not the game has passed him by to some degree. Mickey has made some fireable decisions recently from doubling down on one of the oldest rosters in the NFL by trading away valuable premium future draft assets, signing high priced veterans coming off injury while allowing young proven homegrown talent to leave to greener pastures, getting taken advantage off in multiple trades with other younger more aggressive NFL GMs, allowing the salary cap to continuously be the absolute worst in the NFL with no plans to correct it and the hiring of a Head Coach that seems disconnected and lost as the leader of this franchise.

 

The bottom line is that the Saints need to rebuild and they process should not be overseen by Mickey Loomis.

 

Dennis Allen shouldn’t even make it through the season… Mrs. Benson could send a clear message of changes to come by firing Allen at some point during the season. It would send a message that what is taking place cannot and will not be tolerated. Losing is one thing but this team is poorly coached and this coaching staff looks simply lost without Sean Payton. The big excuse were going to here from guys like Loomis and DA (whose already uttered it) is the teams problems with injury this season. To that I say two things…

 

1. Every NFL team deals with injury… the Ravens had a ton of them but that didn’t stop them from making us look like a high school team on Monday night.

 

2. If you assemble the oldest roster in the NFL and sign NFL vets in free agency coming off of injury and depend on your own players coming off injury as well as being the sole responsibility of your own cap issues that prevent you from signing players… you then aren’t allowed to blame your failures on injuries, I mean what did you expect?

 

Mickey Loomis realized what was coming… he knew that the end was near and the organization has no way out of it due to the decisions he and Payton made and he is now the only one left to shoulder the blame. So he crossed his fingers, doubled down on what he had, mortgaged future picks in order to hopefully deliver him a playoff season and buy him some time before the fans turn on him.

 

It all backfired!

 

Mrs. Benson MUST rebuild this franchise from the top down. Sean Payton is never coaching this team again, its time to build a new culture under a new voice at HC and not some Sean Payton wanna be. We need a young smart new GM to lead the way. Loomis has earned the right to stay on in a VP or advisory role but his days of being in control should be a thing of the past.

 

As fans we need to come to grips with the fact that this will be a multiple year rebuild. It won’t happen overnight and its gonna get a lot worse before it gets better. Were gonna lose some good players, were gonna lose a bunch of games… its inevitable. The model should be the Philadelphia Eagles. They went through something similar after their super bowl run and then buying their way out of the Carson Wentz contract but by acknowledging the problem, committing to the solution and making smart wise personal decisions they have rebuilt themselves into a 8-0 football team with a bright future.

 

This should be the standard for the Saints moving forward, if not get comfortable living in NFL purtorgy!

 

 

WHODAT

 

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Good stuff, Worm.

Every time anyone talks about firing...anyone, we hear "but who's available" or something like that.

The bottom line is, many teams have, and many more will.

The Dolphins were garbage a few years ago. The Vikings needed change, and BOOM! The Eagles, Bengals, Rams, 49ers, Jets, Giants etc... have passed us by, in a big way. Hell, even Pete Carroll is finding light again, and he's the oldest coach in the league.

What doesn't work? Trying the same thing(s), expecting different results.

We have a lot of talent, and it's getting wasted due to lack of signing/raising supporting talent.

I'd love to see A LOT of change, as long as we don't lose Ireland and his scouting group.

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Remember... In 2006 Loomis hired Sean Payton. The 8th and final new HC hired that cycle. So basically the guy everyone turned down or didn't want. The point is that just because you land the coveted guy does not mean you landed the right guy. This franchise has a long road ahead, any priority HC candidate will likley prefer other opportunities so the Saints will have to do extensive research and nab a young up and coming coach a year or two early before they are household names. We need a young aggressive coach who can connect with players and who will embrace the rebuild.

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Firing Loomis would be a huge mistake. The roster is being held back by the coach, not the other way around. Guarantee we're a 12-5 team if Payton doesn't retire. We've crushed the draft for years. The grass isn't always greener, get the right coach in the building.

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1 hour ago, Kingram said:

Firing Loomis would be a huge mistake. The roster is being held back by the coach, not the other way around. Guarantee we're a 12-5 team if Payton doesn't retire. We've crushed the draft for years. The grass isn't always greener, get the right coach in the building.

I get what your saying but heres where I disagree...

 

1. Saying we'd be 12-5 is Payton was here just simply isn't fact. The injuries are still what they are, the defense still has regressed due to the loss of key players that Payton wouldn't have either and he basically had a similar roster last season and he got 9 wins. Would be be better, no doubt but 12-5 is a major stretch.

 

2. I don't understand how so many Saints fans give Loomis a pass on all his faults because of the a few hits. Loomis continously gets taken advantage of in trades, made personnel decisions that turned out to be completely wrong, strapped the cap almost beyond repair without a 3 year drought, continues to sacrifice future draft assets. 

 

I get it... he hired Sean Payton and Payton won a Superbowl and delivered the golden age of Saints football but those days are over, Payton and Brees are gone. Loomis is all thats left and if you truly dive deep into Loomis and the decisions he's made over time you start to realize that he's made more bad choices than good ones and he's directly responsible for the position the Saints find themselves in at the moment and he should not be beyond repercussion for the decisions he's made. 

 

Do I feel he should be fired... I'm not sure. I do, like many others feel a loyalty to Loomis for what he did accomplish here however I also feel hes past his time as an NFL GM. The game has evolved. I would like to see Loomis step aside and just be the VP, relinquish the GM duties and hire a new young smart GM to oversee the franchise moving fwd.

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On 11/10/2022 at 3:57 PM, jcvoodoo said:

Bring back the brown paper bags if the staff stays status quo! About the only Saints staff member currently worth anything is Nielsen, IMO.

I actually feel the Saints simply need to change philosophy... what id love to see is a restructure of the front office staff.

 

Mickey Loomis relinquish GM duties and stay on as simply EVP of football ops.

 

Jeff Ireland whos head of college scouting and assistant GM promoted to GM.

 

Kahi Hartley VP of football administration given a raise and more security to ensure he stays on as our cap genius.

 

The Saints are set to go through a lengthy rebuild. We need a scouts perspective in charge. Ireland has proven that he values picks and building through the draft. Hes also proven to have a very good eye for talent. 

 

Having Loomis remain gives the structure a liaison from executive branch to football administration but with Ireland as the GM it shifts the philosophy from "win now mode" to "build through draft". It also allows Ireland to become the voice of power within the draft room and not allow picks to be frivolously traded away as well as allowing his eye for talent to override anybody else's personal preference within the draft room of draft night and prior to it.

Hartley stays in his normal role of cap wizard as we will need him there to navigate the next 2 years as we rid ourselves of some really bad contracts.

Following this front office restructure the ENTIRE coaching staff would need to be FIRED!

 

DA was hired as the best fit to keep the train on the tracks and he failed. Hes not the coach you rebuild from the ground up with. Just as Gayle did with Van Gundy with the Pelicans... you made a bad hire, own it and move on.

 

Attempting to hold onto a culture a departing coach created is an absurd idea, it isn't possible. That coaches mere presence is what keeps that culture alive. The Saints don't need to try to find a way to keep the spirit of Sean Payton within the building... they need to go out and find the next great Saints HC instead and let him build his own culture.

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I agree completely. The national media marvels at his cap skills but that’s not the entire story. This day was bound to come and that’s fine. Hopefully Coach Payton wants to coach next season and they can find a team willing to toss in 2 first round draft picks and maybe a bit more, he’s worth that and this season has shown that. I have to be honest about Dennis Allen and say I was all onboard with the continuity thing about keeping him on but this guy isn’t a head coach. This team has checked out on him. Trade players that have contracts that can be traded and see what you can get for them. Maybe you can get an Eric Bieniemy to come in and give him a 5 year deal because this won’t be an easy rebuild. But the Ravens do have a pretty good backup in Tyler Huntley tucked away. It’ll be at least a 2nd round pick to poach him away but take a chance with the guy and don’t look back. 

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On 11/10/2022 at 9:27 AM, whodatworm23 said:

I get what your saying but heres where I disagree...

 

1. Saying we'd be 12-5 is Payton was here just simply isn't fact. The injuries are still what they are, the defense still has regressed due to the loss of key players that Payton wouldn't have either and he basically had a similar roster last season and he got 9 wins. Would be be better, no doubt but 12-5 is a major stretch.

 

2. I don't understand how so many Saints fans give Loomis a pass on all his faults because of the a few hits. Loomis continously gets taken advantage of in trades, made personnel decisions that turned out to be completely wrong, strapped the cap almost beyond repair without a 3 year drought, continues to sacrifice future draft assets. 

 

I get it... he hired Sean Payton and Payton won a Superbowl and delivered the golden age of Saints football but those days are over, Payton and Brees are gone. Loomis is all thats left and if you truly dive deep into Loomis and the decisions he's made over time you start to realize that he's made more bad choices than good ones and he's directly responsible for the position the Saints find themselves in at the moment and he should not be beyond repercussion for the decisions he's made. 

 

Do I feel he should be fired... I'm not sure. I do, like many others feel a loyalty to Loomis for what he did accomplish here however I also feel hes past his time as an NFL GM. The game has evolved. I would like to see Loomis step aside and just be the VP, relinquish the GM duties and hire a new young smart GM to oversee the franchise moving fwd.

I hear you, and he owns the DA hire. Thats a bad miss...but what trades has he really lost? Trading our first this year hurts, but I'll gladly take Olave and Penning (If he is our LT of the future) in exchange for it. The CeeDee trade was tough but you were stuck. He wasn't listening to coaches, becoming a malcontent and he was demanding to play a new position. He really destroyed his market as you had to find a team willing to give up draft capital and hope he pans out at FS, a position he hadn't played in the NFL. The Jimmy Graham trade was a colossal win, and the Cooks trade was also a colossal win. I think saying Loomis has "a few hits" is really diminishing what him and the rest of the front office have done in the draft. I can't think of many teams that have a better draft history than we do in recent years. 

I also don't think the cap is a big issue. If Cam Jordan retires, and you cut Winston pre July 1 you're almost back to even and you're very much in the green the following off-season. 

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29 minutes ago, Kingram said:

I hear you, and he owns the DA hire. Thats a bad miss...but what trades has he really lost? Trading our first this year hurts, but I'll gladly take Olave and Penning (If he is our LT of the future) in exchange for it. The CeeDee trade was tough but you were stuck. He wasn't listening to coaches, becoming a malcontent and he was demanding to play a new position. He really destroyed his market as you had to find a team willing to give up draft capital and hope he pans out at FS, a position he hadn't played in the NFL. The Jimmy Graham trade was a colossal win, and the Cooks trade was also a colossal win. I think saying Loomis has "a few hits" is really diminishing what him and the rest of the front office have done in the draft. I can't think of many teams that have a better draft history than we do in recent years. 

I also don't think the cap is a big issue. If Cam Jordan retires, and you cut Winston pre July 1 you're almost back to even and you're very much in the green the following off-season. 

-The jury is still out on Trevor Penning, that’ll have to be evaluated when he plays. Chris Olave has worked out so far. 
-CGJ trade was abysmal. One, you don’t win games without good players and two, it’s his job as the GM to figure these things out. That was arrogance on the part of Allen and Loomis to trade a guy for a pot of gumbo. Give the guy an opportunity to try a new position and if it doesn’t work, then you have evidence to show him that it was a bad idea. 
-I wouldn’t say the Jimmy Graham trade was a colossal win. I guess it depends on how you view Andrus Peat. I’m not sure what to make of him quite frankly. He’s pretty good but he’s injured so often that I’m not sure it can be seen as a colossal win to be honest. Just my opinion. And it feels as if they overpay for every draft trade. Maybe it’s “offer whatever they want” strategy but it’s just not smart. 
-This team hit on the 2017 draft. Hit. Beyond that, it’s not crazy to say these drafts haven’t been stellar. I think we can easily go down some of these drafts and look at the guys drafted behind them and start asking questions as to why this guy was chosen ahead of others. 
-Those cap numbers you’re crunching can’t be correct. This team is projected to be $62 million over the cap heading into next year and there’s just no way it’s going to be an easy fix. They operated in win now mode and it’d be forgivable if they were winning. You can’t lose and mismanage your cap that way. I just don’t see what you’re seeing and you could be right next offseason but man, this is looking worse by the day.

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1 hour ago, gen. manager said:

-The jury is still out on Trevor Penning, that’ll have to be evaluated when he plays. Chris Olave has worked out so far. 
-CGJ trade was abysmal. One, you don’t win games without good players and two, it’s his job as the GM to figure these things out. That was arrogance on the part of Allen and Loomis to trade a guy for a pot of gumbo. Give the guy an opportunity to try a new position and if it doesn’t work, then you have evidence to show him that it was a bad idea. 
-I wouldn’t say the Jimmy Graham trade was a colossal win. I guess it depends on how you view Andrus Peat. I’m not sure what to make of him quite frankly. He’s pretty good but he’s injured so often that I’m not sure it can be seen as a colossal win to be honest. Just my opinion. And it feels as if they overpay for every draft trade. Maybe it’s “offer whatever they want” strategy but it’s just not smart. 
-This team hit on the 2017 draft. Hit. Beyond that, it’s not crazy to say these drafts haven’t been stellar. I think we can easily go down some of these drafts and look at the guys drafted behind them and start asking questions as to why this guy was chosen ahead of others. 
-Those cap numbers you’re crunching can’t be correct. This team is projected to be $62 million over the cap heading into next year and there’s just no way it’s going to be an easy fix. They operated in win now mode and it’d be forgivable if they were winning. You can’t lose and mismanage your cap that way. I just don’t see what you’re seeing and you could be right next offseason but man, this is looking worse by the day.

We didn't trade Graham for Andrus Peat, we traded him for Max Unger and Graham fell off a cliff as soon as he was traded. 

CGJ wanted a new contract. He wanted to be paid like a top FS, when he wasn't playing FS. He was starting to not listen to coaches and become an issue. Its one of those unfortunate situations where it seemed like unless the Saints paid him top FS money he had no interest in being here, its hard to blame that on Loomis. 

In 2018 we drafted Davenport, a disappointment but a good player none the less. Trequan Smith has been serviceable but nothing special. 

In 2019 we drafted Erik McCoy, Ceedy Duce and Kaden Ellis. The Ceedy situation is unfortunate but we got 3 years of stellar play from a 4th round pick. You can't complain about this draft.

In 2020 we drafted Cesar Ruiz and Adam Trautman. Started slow but Ruiz and Trautman are both serviceable starters, Ruiz looking like a stud potentially.

In 2021 we drafted Payton Turner, Pete Werner, Paulson Adeebo. All 3 look like they can/will be big pieces of our defense moving forward. Turner been playing much better (playing at all) as of late. 

In 2022 we drafted Chris Olave, Trevor Penning and Alontae Taylor. Jury is out on Penning obviously but Olave and Taylor look like cornerstone players for both sides of the ball.

 

I think Saints fans need to look at how other teams in the league draft...We've been pretty impressive in that category.

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In regards to this years pick, based on Tankathon the Saints would be picking 4th at the moment behind the Texans, Raiders, and Panthers with a few teams possibly able to jump us with another loss as they are sitting at 3-6 rather than 3-7 since they've already had their bye week.  Even if no one else jumps us, at least 2 of those teams are likely to draft a QB in Houston and the Panthers while the Raiders could look to move on from Derek Carr by trading him post June 1st for a 33 mil cap savings.

But even if only 2 of those teams take a QB, that's Stroud and Young already off the table.  From there you have guys like Hooker, Levis, Uiagalelei, McKee, Richardson, etc to look at and at least one of them will likely still be there at the top of the 2nd round and outside of maybe Hooker, who is already going to be 26 at time of the draft, I don't know if I'd really want to drop a top 5 let alone top 20 draft pick on any of them.  So the question then becomes, how does Penning as a draft prospect compare to the OTs of this draft class as we'd likely still need to find a long term replacement for Armstead if we didn't trade away our 1st last year to get Penning.  I think Penning is probably the 2nd best OT as a prospect, if not 1st, if he was in this class and a lot better as a prospect than what you'd get in the second round.

So it's more of a question would you rather say Will Levis/Hooker + Dawand Jones (Even as an Ohio State fan I'd probably want him moved to OG rather than OT) or is Penning + Uiagalelei/Richardson etc good enough for you?

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An impossible number of things had to go just right for the mega trade to work for the season. 1) The Saints first rounders would have to be great, 2) The Saints would have to have their answer at QB, and 3) The Saints would have to be a good team not drafting in the top 10. Even if Olave and Penning are good...the trade was a disaster. It annihilated our opportunity to get a franchise QB and turned this Saints HC job as the least enticing in the NFL. Certainly, we can strike gold again, like we did with Payton, but this is a different set of circumstances. The Saints don't have a top 5 pick and a ton of cash to rebuild like Payton of yesteryear. The Saints have no cash or draft capital. If the Saints fire Allen midway through the season, they lose one of the few selling points of the job...the Saints have historically been patient with head coaches. 2023 is toast...a HC is going to want to reassurance that they won't be a one year rental knowing that the Saints will likely be bad again next year as well.

I'm not opposed to firing Allen...he was probably the wrong choice from the beginning, but I honestly am doubtful it would make a big difference. There is an enormous talent deficit this year. Same embarrassing offense from last year, but add Olave...and now take away Lattimore and all our great safeties from the defense. We were a 9 win team last year, but that was a BAD 9 win team. There were times last year I felt that we were the worst team in the NFL and were unlikely to win another game. Payton did an amazing job squeezing every bit of juice out of that team...but I'm doubtful more than 5 coaches in the NFL would have come close to the same level of success. If you don't have a QB...you don't have a chance. Loomis should have anticipated this...this is really on him. I didn't hate trading CJGJ. There is no way you trade him unless he was going to be an enormous headache and detriment to your team...but why trade him to the Eagles? You are telling me that they were on the only option? That's the infuriating part of this.

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1 hour ago, sammymvpknight said:

An impossible number of things had to go just right for the mega trade to work for the season. 1) The Saints first rounders would have to be great, 2) The Saints would have to have their answer at QB, and 3) The Saints would have to be a good team not drafting in the top 10. Even if Olave and Penning are good...the trade was a disaster. It annihilated our opportunity to get a franchise QB and turned this Saints HC job as the least enticing in the NFL. Certainly, we can strike gold again, like we did with Payton, but this is a different set of circumstances. The Saints don't have a top 5 pick and a ton of cash to rebuild like Payton of yesteryear. The Saints have no cash or draft capital. If the Saints fire Allen midway through the season, they lose one of the few selling points of the job...the Saints have historically been patient with head coaches. 2023 is toast...a HC is going to want to reassurance that they won't be a one year rental knowing that the Saints will likely be bad again next year as well.

I'm not opposed to firing Allen...he was probably the wrong choice from the beginning, but I honestly am doubtful it would make a big difference. There is an enormous talent deficit this year. Same embarrassing offense from last year, but add Olave...and now take away Lattimore and all our great safeties from the defense. We were a 9 win team last year, but that was a BAD 9 win team. There were times last year I felt that we were the worst team in the NFL and were unlikely to win another game. Payton did an amazing job squeezing every bit of juice out of that team...but I'm doubtful more than 5 coaches in the NFL would have come close to the same level of success. If you don't have a QB...you don't have a chance. Loomis should have anticipated this...this is really on him. I didn't hate trading CJGJ. There is no way you trade him unless he was going to be an enormous headache and detriment to your team...but why trade him to the Eagles? You are telling me that they were on the only option? That's the infuriating part of this.

The Olave trade could've happened without giving up the 1st this year that ended up netting Penning first off.

1)  I think Penning still can be great.  He's easily as skilled as any OT in this draft.

2)  I think the Saints though Winston would be the answer based on his play last season.  Last season without anything close to a NFL receiver on the roster they went 5-2 with Winston completing 59% of his passes with 14 TD and 3 INT.  Granted this season, Winston threw nearly as many passes in 3 games as he threw through 7, so that might've been an over reliance on the pass too causing issues.

3)  I don't think they expected to be top 10, they probably expected to be middle of the pack at worst as the defense was expected to be stout still, the offense would be getting back MT and added on Olave & Landry, etc.

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22 hours ago, Kingram said:

We didn't trade Graham for Andrus Peat, we traded him for Max Unger and Graham fell off a cliff as soon as he was traded. 

CGJ wanted a new contract. He wanted to be paid like a top FS, when he wasn't playing FS. He was starting to not listen to coaches and become an issue. Its one of those unfortunate situations where it seemed like unless the Saints paid him top FS money he had no interest in being here, its hard to blame that on Loomis. 

In 2018 we drafted Davenport, a disappointment but a good player none the less. Trequan Smith has been serviceable but nothing special. 

In 2019 we drafted Erik McCoy, Ceedy Duce and Kaden Ellis. The Ceedy situation is unfortunate but we got 3 years of stellar play from a 4th round pick. You can't complain about this draft.

In 2020 we drafted Cesar Ruiz and Adam Trautman. Started slow but Ruiz and Trautman are both serviceable starters, Ruiz looking like a stud potentially.

In 2021 we drafted Payton Turner, Pete Werner, Paulson Adeebo. All 3 look like they can/will be big pieces of our defense moving forward. Turner been playing much better (playing at all) as of late. 

In 2022 we drafted Chris Olave, Trevor Penning and Alontae Taylor. Jury is out on Penning obviously but Olave and Taylor look like cornerstone players for both sides of the ball.

 

I think Saints fans need to look at how other teams in the league draft...We've been pretty impressive in that category.

-Well technically I got the Stephone Anthony pick and the Andrus Peat pick mixed up. You traded for Stephone Anthony essentially when you got the Seahawks’ first round pick that year and he was a disaster. That’s even more egregious. 
-Marcus Davenport is not a good player if you’re judging him by draft position, I’m sorry. 
-2019 draft can be complained about because CGJ is no longer on the team and Kaden Elliss…he played fine on Sunday but he’s not a guy I feel you can depend on long term. 
-Ruiz seems like he’s turning it around. Adam Trautman isn’t a full time starter. 
-Payton Turner and Paulson Adebo are still yet to be proven. Adebo played well as a rookie and has been a disaster this year. 
 

It’s not about other teams, it’s about this one. This team, without a hall of fame coach, has been mismanaged and it’s showing this year in my eyes. Maybe you see it differently.

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