Jump to content

Saints must admit mistakes… Rebuild:


whodatworm23
 Share

Recommended Posts

The only solace that can be taken with this year is that since Dennis Allen has been so terrible with this team is that maybe this’ll drive Sean Payton’s price up when it comes to trading him. We saw this team go through similar injury issues and the guy got 9 wins out of it. He’s worth at least 2 first round picks.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 minutes ago, gen. manager said:

-Well technically I got the Stephone Anthony pick and the Andrus Peat pick mixed up. You traded for Stephone Anthony essentially when you got the Seahawks’ first round pick that year and he was a disaster. That’s even more egregious. 
-Marcus Davenport is not a good player if you’re judging him by draft position, I’m sorry. 
-2019 draft can be complained about because CGJ is no longer on the team and Kaden Elliss…he played fine on Sunday but he’s not a guy I feel you can depend on long term. 
-Ruiz seems like he’s turning it around. Adam Trautman isn’t a full time starter. 
-Payton Turner and Paulson Adebo are still yet to be proven. Adebo played well as a rookie and has been a disaster this year. 
 

It’s not about other teams, it’s about this one. This team, without a hall of fame coach, has been mismanaged and it’s showing this year in my eyes. Maybe you see it differently.

I mean, Max Unger gave us 4 seasons of great OL play. You can't just pretend he wasn't part of the deal. Anthony was a miss for sure. Davenport is a good player, he hasn't been worth the two firsts they used to move up for him but he's been a good player. 32 teams in the NFL would be ecstatic if you told them you were going to get a 4 year starter out of a 4th round pick. Trautman was a mid round TE pick and has been a good starting TE. Turner and Adebo can be unproven, sure. I think Adebo's bad Sophomore season can be accredited to the disaster that is DA.

 

Sure, its about this team but if you're going to fire Loomis you do need to compare him to other GMs. He's consistently kept this team talented and contending. Dennis Allen was a disaster, firing Loomis over that one move is such an insanely reactionary move. 70% of NFL teams would KILL to steal Loomis from us. Everyone take a deep breath. Good lord.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Kingram said:

I mean, Max Unger gave us 4 seasons of great OL play. You can't just pretend he wasn't part of the deal. Anthony was a miss for sure. Davenport is a good player, he hasn't been worth the two firsts they used to move up for him but he's been a good player. 32 teams in the NFL would be ecstatic if you told them you were going to get a 4 year starter out of a 4th round pick. Trautman was a mid round TE pick and has been a good starting TE. Turner and Adebo can be unproven, sure. I think Adebo's bad Sophomore season can be accredited to the disaster that is DA.

 

Sure, its about this team but if you're going to fire Loomis you do need to compare him to other GMs. He's consistently kept this team talented and contending. Dennis Allen was a disaster, firing Loomis over that one move is such an insanely reactionary move. 70% of NFL teams would KILL to steal Loomis from us. Everyone take a deep breath. Good lord.

-Unger was solid, I don’t know if he was great. It wasn’t like he was some missing piece, they still missed the playoffs with him. 
-Based on what you gave up to get Marcus Davenport and his production to this point, he hasn’t been a good player. That’s not even debatable to me. Guy is in his 5th year with 21.5 sacks. And if you go back and look at that draft and the guys he went ahead of, it’s even worse. 
-Adam Trautman is a good starting TE based on what exactly? 
-And Loomis being let go isn’t a one move thing in my eyes. To me, without a great coach, he’s not a very good GM. People give him credit for the cap but other than that, he’s middle of the road to me. This guy has been here since 2002. It’s not like the Saints were a juggernaut pre-Payton. With Payton, successful. Haslett and Allen years? Irrelevant but this is my opinion and view and that’s your opinion and view.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

And one more thing with this Mickey Loomis topic. Who is to say Mickey Loomis just wasn’t Sean Payton’s lackey? Because I think that’s a fair question to ask. Yes the GM and HC work together but the GM has to keep the organization responsible and let the HC know, “Yeah I understand we want to do this but for the sake of the organization, this may not be a good move.” And with stories saying Sean Payton wanted to leave for the Dallas Cowboys years ago, it becomes even more important for Mickey Loomis to be the responsible one and not let your HC get too crazy with the cap situation and uneven trades. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 11/14/2022 at 11:55 AM, Kingram said:

I hear you, and he owns the DA hire. Thats a bad miss...but what trades has he really lost? Trading our first this year hurts, but I'll gladly take Olave and Penning (If he is our LT of the future) in exchange for it. The CeeDee trade was tough but you were stuck. He wasn't listening to coaches, becoming a malcontent and he was demanding to play a new position. He really destroyed his market as you had to find a team willing to give up draft capital and hope he pans out at FS, a position he hadn't played in the NFL. The Jimmy Graham trade was a colossal win, and the Cooks trade was also a colossal win. I think saying Loomis has "a few hits" is really diminishing what him and the rest of the front office have done in the draft. I can't think of many teams that have a better draft history than we do in recent years. 

I also don't think the cap is a big issue. If Cam Jordan retires, and you cut Winston pre July 1 you're almost back to even and you're very much in the green the following off-season. 

I respect Loomis as a GM but I also feel the game as we know it today has bypassed him. Just like with coaches it happens. His recent success to me is more so attributed to Jeff Irelands arrival which was more of a Sean Payton hire when he relinquished power to Ireland.

 

Loomis isn't terrible but he's more involved in the Benson affairs outside of football than what most believe. We need a GM that is 100% focused on managing the team, thats why my hope is for Loomis to step aside and promote Ireland or Hartley as GM (After he corrects his wrong and fires DA) and allows the new GM the ability to assemble an entire new coaching staff and build towards a new culture. 

 

To me, Loomis should have 3 things on his to do list after the season...

1. Trade Sean Payton... restock the Saints draft war chest for 2023 and 2024.

 

2. Fire Dennis Allen.

 

3. Step down as GM remain on as EVP or football ops, Hire new GM.

 

From there... the next guy in line can take us into the next phase of Saints football, whatever that may be. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, gen. manager said:

And one more thing with this Mickey Loomis topic. Who is to say Mickey Loomis just wasn’t Sean Payton’s lackey? Because I think that’s a fair question to ask. Yes the GM and HC work together but the GM has to keep the organization responsible and let the HC know, “Yeah I understand we want to do this but for the sake of the organization, this may not be a good move.” And with stories saying Sean Payton wanted to leave for the Dallas Cowboys years ago, it becomes even more important for Mickey Loomis to be the responsible one and not let your HC get too crazy with the cap situation and uneven trades. 

I've always said...

 

Its the HC job to win now. Its the GM job to protect the future of the franchise from the HC.

 

Mickey did fail at this with Sean Payton.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 hours ago, whodatworm23 said:

I've always said...

 

Its the HC job to win now. Its the GM job to protect the future of the franchise from the HC.

 

Mickey did fail at this with Sean Payton.

I guess this is where we disagree. Things aren't going well right now, but this team is built to succeed if you can find the next QB/HC. In my opinion when "rebuilding/reloading" you need to have a strong supporting cast before you insert the right HC/QB. How often do we see a talented QB prospect land in a messy offensive situation and have their career derailed? The logic behind DA made sense, the only mistake Loomis would make is riding with him for another season. 

 

The Saints are in a good situation. Strong OL, strong receivers and a defense with a lot of talented pieces. If you bring in the right guy at HC this off-season, finding the next QB isn't going to be a huge challenge. A lot of that can be credited to Loomis/Ireland.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Kingram said:

I guess this is where we disagree. Things aren't going well right now, but this team is built to succeed if you can find the next QB/HC. In my opinion when "rebuilding/reloading" you need to have a strong supporting cast before you insert the right HC/QB. How often do we see a talented QB prospect land in a messy offensive situation and have their career derailed? The logic behind DA made sense, the only mistake Loomis would make is riding with him for another season. 

 

The Saints are in a good situation. Strong OL, strong receivers and a defense with a lot of talented pieces. If you bring in the right guy at HC this off-season, finding the next QB isn't going to be a huge challenge. A lot of that can be credited to Loomis/Ireland.

I'm not advocating for Loomis to be removed from the organization... simply a restructure of the power dynamic. I touch on this in the new post I wrote.

 

I do disagree with you however that the Saints are in a "good" situation. The Saints have one of the oldest rosters in the NFL and their salary cap has been mangled by restructured contracts to the point where the organization is quite frankly stuck with players for some time, thier core is caught in their prime being sattlebagged with the excess baggage of bad deals now and into the future all while trading away valuable future draft assets. Yes Sean Payton offers some hope but thats not a guarantee. The next 2 years will be bleak, the only hope is that the Saints find a way to show the fanbase that they are moving in the right direction, have realized their mistakes and are slowly building their way out of the hole they have created for themselves.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, whodatworm23 said:

I'm not advocating for Loomis to be removed from the organization... simply a restructure of the power dynamic. I touch on this in the new post I wrote.

 

I do disagree with you however that the Saints are in a "good" situation. The Saints have one of the oldest rosters in the NFL and their salary cap has been mangled by restructured contracts to the point where the organization is quite frankly stuck with players for some time, thier core is caught in their prime being sattlebagged with the excess baggage of bad deals now and into the future all while trading away valuable future draft assets. Yes Sean Payton offers some hope but thats not a guarantee. The next 2 years will be bleak, the only hope is that the Saints find a way to show the fanbase that they are moving in the right direction, have realized their mistakes and are slowly building their way out of the hole they have created for themselves.

I think this is an over reaction. The only old starters we have that I'm worried about in the next 1-2 years are Cam Jordan, Tyrann Mathieu and Demario Davis. Payton Turner has been playing better and Werner/Ellis look like they could be a formidable LB duo for the next few years potentially. Mathieu doesn't have a replacement on the roster. When you think of the talent on the rosters that have been in rebuilds the last few years...Lions, Browns, Jets, Falcons, Texans, Panthers etc... I think we are MUCH better off than those teams were. Add a HC and a competent QB and we're a playoff team again, I know this can be said for most "bad teams" but I think the difference is...We will supply a young QB a good OL and good weapons right off the bat.

 

It'll all be okay guys.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, Kingram said:

I think this is an over reaction. The only old starters we have that I'm worried about in the next 1-2 years are Cam Jordan, Tyrann Mathieu and Demario Davis. Payton Turner has been playing better and Werner/Ellis look like they could be a formidable LB duo for the next few years potentially. Mathieu doesn't have a replacement on the roster. When you think of the talent on the rosters that have been in rebuilds the last few years...Lions, Browns, Jets, Falcons, Texans, Panthers etc... I think we are MUCH better off than those teams were. Add a HC and a competent QB and we're a playoff team again, I know this can be said for most "bad teams" but I think the difference is...We will supply a young QB a good OL and good weapons right off the bat.

 

It'll all be okay guys.

While I agree that the Saints do have peices... your neglecting to take into account how bad the salary cap issue is with the Saints and yes I know, "Loomis finds a way" but honestly thats not the case anymore. The organization has kicked that can as far as they could andnits left them stuck with unproductive veterans on untradeable contracts limiting them to being unable to retain young talent for the next couple years and the losing will force them to pivot on how they actually conduct thier busniess moving forward because of the fact that they do not have a franchise quarterback and no assets to acquire one for the foreseeable future. This team truly is in a state of limbo where there best hope is to squeeze production out of a few aging vets as they go through a 24 month lull until they can get from underneath these contracts, clear the decks on the cap, build draft assets and attack a rebuild in the process. Some of those CORE players will be sacrificed in this process, not all but some. I firmly believe CGJ was one of the first as he was an easy one to offer up as the organization had character concerns with him and didn't want to invest longterm but the truth is that even if they wanted to they simply couldn't. Were about to pay the piper for all the can kicking during the SP era, Loomis and the Saints were simply hoping they would deliver a playoff season this year in order to buy them some time and patience from the fanbase but that has backfired in thier faces so far.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

54 minutes ago, JMG5 said:

Potentially giving up a Top 5 pick in a good QB class really sucks. A QB doesn't fix our issues, but man would it be nice to have a young guy to build around and hit the hard reset with.

Completely agree... and regardless if you agreed with the decision or not at the time to take the gamble and trade that future asset away, the person making the final call or the group must be held accountable for the failure of it. Quite frankly let's be honest, if that pick ends up in thr top 5 that is your franchise QB in this draft class. I have little doubt that's exactly what this organization would draft whether it be Stroud, Young or Levis. 

 

They took a big time gamble... they were wrong and it likley has set this franchise back lord knows how long. How often will we have a shot at a top 5 pick in a deep QB class? Add to that it will coinside when we are likley to allow Davenport to walk in free agency as the Ravens lock in Lamar Jackson as thier continued franchise quarterback. Has this regime had some success... sure but when they miss they sure do miss big... I mean devastatingly BIG!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, whodatworm23 said:

Completely agree... and regardless if you agreed with the decision or not at the time to take the gamble and trade that future asset away, the person making the final call or the group must be held accountable for the failure of it. Quite frankly let's be honest, if that pick ends up in thr top 5 that is your franchise QB in this draft class. I have little doubt that's exactly what this organization would draft whether it be Stroud, Young or Levis. 

 

They took a big time gamble... they were wrong and it likley has set this franchise back lord knows how long. How often will we have a shot at a top 5 pick in a deep QB class? Add to that it will coinside when we are likley to allow Davenport to walk in free agency as the Ravens lock in Lamar Jackson as thier continued franchise quarterback. Has this regime had some success... sure but when they miss they sure do miss big... I mean devastatingly BIG!

The Davenport pick I don't hate. We were trying to capitalize on the window with Drew, but I always disliked trading up for him. Being aggresive and trying to capitalize on Drew's final years is one thing though. Gambling on Winston and an unproven HC is another thing entirely.

The FO has made huge blunders the last couple of years in an effort to put off paying the piper. Mismanaging assets and letting integral players go in favour of aging veterans (a.k.a exactly what we did before Ireland came in and started handling the scouting). If we only give away a Top 15 pick then it's obviously a bit easier to swallow and just pushes off the rebuild another year, but if we continue to suck this is going to go down as an all-time mistake.

My best case scenario is we finish with a mediocre record and give the Eagles pick #14 then either get a 1st or multiple 2nds from a team like the Chargers for Payton. A pipe dream, but at this point that's all we have.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 hours ago, whodatworm23 said:

While I agree that the Saints do have peices... your neglecting to take into account how bad the salary cap issue is with the Saints and yes I know, "Loomis finds a way" but honestly thats not the case anymore. The organization has kicked that can as far as they could andnits left them stuck with unproductive veterans on untradeable contracts limiting them to being unable to retain young talent for the next couple years and the losing will force them to pivot on how they actually conduct thier busniess moving forward because of the fact that they do not have a franchise quarterback and no assets to acquire one for the foreseeable future. This team truly is in a state of limbo where there best hope is to squeeze production out of a few aging vets as they go through a 24 month lull until they can get from underneath these contracts, clear the decks on the cap, build draft assets and attack a rebuild in the process. Some of those CORE players will be sacrificed in this process, not all but some. I firmly believe CGJ was one of the first as he was an easy one to offer up as the organization had character concerns with him and didn't want to invest longterm but the truth is that even if they wanted to they simply couldn't. Were about to pay the piper for all the can kicking during the SP era, Loomis and the Saints were simply hoping they would deliver a playoff season this year in order to buy them some time and patience from the fanbase but that has backfired in thier faces so far.

Saints will have to make some hard decisions in the off-season but after this off-season the cap situation is fine. Probably need to beg Cam Jordan to retire.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 hours ago, JMG5 said:

The Davenport pick I don't hate. We were trying to capitalize on the window with Drew, but I always disliked trading up for him. Being aggresive and trying to capitalize on Drew's final years is one thing though. Gambling on Winston and an unproven HC is another thing entirely.

The FO has made huge blunders the last couple of years in an effort to put off paying the piper. Mismanaging assets and letting integral players go in favour of aging veterans (a.k.a exactly what we did before Ireland came in and started handling the scouting). If we only give away a Top 15 pick then it's obviously a bit easier to swallow and just pushes off the rebuild another year, but if we continue to suck this is going to go down as an all-time mistake.

My best case scenario is we finish with a mediocre record and give the Eagles pick #14 then either get a 1st or multiple 2nds from a team like the Chargers for Payton. A pipe dream, but at this point that's all we have.

Best case scenario... I see the Saints finishing 6-11. However I feel thats asking alot of this team as currently constructed, with the injuries they have and the fact that the players are beginning to check out on the Dennis Allen experiment. That loss to the Steelers (who ARE a rebuilding franchise) was the final blow. Most these guys were playing for self pride, not DA. With the season in the crapper and injuries piling up and the drama that's beginning to exude from the locker room lately we will be lucky to finish 5-12. 

 

We will be handing a top 8 pick over to the Eagles... probably top 5 which would make Loomis decision to double down on this roster an all time blunder when you add it all up.

 

Let me be clear... I think Mickey Loomis can continue to be a top level executive vice president of football ops but I think his days of managing the day to day operations of the football team from a GMs perspective is over. Hes dealing with GMs 20 years his younger and he simply Is overmatched. GMs in the NFL is very clickish and Mickey clearly is the "old dude" in the room. I realize there are other elder GMs in the leauge but the trend of hiring young aggressive smart football minds to run the day to day ops is growing fast, this is the Saints opportunity to get in on that. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

×
×
  • Create New...