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Future of Daron Payne


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18 minutes ago, turtle28 said:

They Rams pay Stafford, Donald, Ramsey, Kupp & Wagner & who else?

They pay top $ to a QB, DT, #1 CB @ MLB other than that they don’t. It’s possible for us to do that or anyone, if you do though you have to draft & develop well like the Rams have been doing & like a lot of the best teams in the NFL do.

I was being facetious but they’ve put out a ton of money. I think we can afford to keep our DL together. Especially since we aren’t paying a QB and most likely won’t have to for at least 5 more years. 

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1 hour ago, ARTMONK HOF said:

I guess time will tell how this goes. 

You pay them and when you get too Chase that’s when you start playing GM and make the best calculated trade you can. But that gives us time to develop players for when that move happens. But you want these guys on second deals and just having that chemistry as long as you can. 

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14 hours ago, ARTMONK HOF said:

I guess time will tell how this goes. 

It’s really not that hard. Cut Carson, extend DaRon on a similar deal to Allen’s.

Payne’s cap hit next year will be similar to what his 5th year option cap hit was this year, $9 million. 
 

Then, in 2024 Payne’s cap hit jumps up to $21 mil & you restructure Jon Allen’s contract to lower his 2024 cap hit.

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1 hour ago, ripsean21 said:

You pay them and when you get too Chase that’s when you start playing GM and make the best calculated trade you can. But that gives us time to develop players for when that move happens. But you want these guys on second deals and just having that chemistry as long as you can. 

I can dig that. You trade Payne in 2 years when Mathis has developed for a 2nd & 5th. 
 

I still don’t think Jon Allen is the guy they’d trade bc he's the leader of the D & between he & Terry they’re the best leaders on the team.

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31 minutes ago, turtle28 said:

I can dig that. You trade Payne in 2 years when Mathis has developed for a 2nd & 5th. 
 

I still don’t think Jon Allen is the guy they’d trade bc he's the leader of the D & between he & Terry they’re the best leaders on the team.

I agree but you never know how players hold up health and impact all factor in. But I believe in a year or two you can see this vision of this DL peak and get Buckner type compensation in return and really start doing the trade off game with valued players who you can’t keep as you swap them with players behind them. Because eventually I think Butler takes over for McCain and as you make the choice with Curl and Forrest which spot does Butler fill or is Butler a trade piece. This is how we improve the roster with youth and have home grown depth and ability to work the draft in future years as the draft prospects align twards the future. The draft prospects should determine your selections not needs

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2 hours ago, turtle28 said:

I can dig that. You trade Payne in 2 years when Mathis has developed for a 2nd & 5th. 
 

I still don’t think Jon Allen is the guy they’d trade bc he's the leader of the D & between he & Terry they’re the best leaders on the team.

Mathis is a year younger and not anywhere near as talented as Payne. I’m still of the opinion with the cap consistently rising, Bezos most likely buying the team and savvy cap management you could keep all four together for the duration of their prime.
 

We aren’t paying really anyone else outside of Terry and we have no QB on this roster worth big money and I can’t see a way that changes in this upcoming off-season with how far down the draft board we’ve fallen. So we potentially have another 6 years+ before we’re paying big time QB money and even that is being hopeful that we somehow find one. 

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2 hours ago, lavar703 said:

Mathis is a year younger and not anywhere near as talented as Payne. I’m still of the opinion with the cap consistently rising, Bezos most likely buying the team and savvy cap management you could keep all four together for the duration of their prime.
 

We aren’t paying really anyone else outside of Terry and we have no QB on this roster worth big money and I can’t see a way that changes in this upcoming off-season with how far down the draft board we’ve fallen. So we potentially have another 6 years+ before we’re paying big time QB money and even that is being hopeful that we somehow find one. 

You can assume all you want about Mathis, until we see definitively that he’s not good, I’ll believe he could be. Mathis had 9 sacks his senior year at Alabama, something Payne never did. The most Payne ever had was 1.5 in college. Matt I used to regularly get 5 or more sacks for us, I see no reason why Mathis can’t develop into a similar player.

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Mathis is a complete unknown and you can only assume just that.  He might turn into a good player, but I sure wouldn't count on someone at Payne's level.  

Payne is not just a young elite player, but one we drafted.  For Washington fans, that is a rare commodity.  It would be a crying shame to not get him on a long term deal.  But I sure won't fault payne if he refuses to sign a reasonable deal after we didn't even make him an offer this offseason.  The options are clear, franchise tag or break the bank.

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11 hours ago, ripsean21 said:

I agree but you never know how players hold up health and impact all factor in. But I believe in a year or two you can see this vision of this DL peak and get Buckner type compensation in return and really start doing the trade off game with valued players who you can’t keep as you swap them with players behind them. Because eventually I think Butler takes over for McCain and as you make the choice with Curl and Forrest which spot does Butler fill or is Butler a trade piece. This is how we improve the roster with youth and have home grown depth and ability to work the draft in future years as the draft prospects align twards the future. The draft prospects should determine your selections not needs

I think DFo has established that he can be our FS, that’s why McCain is playing the slot. If McCain continues to play slot/Buffalo nickel at a decent rate the rest of the year then he’ll be back next year.

Butler & Reaves will remain our 4th & 5th safeties/core special teams players.

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6 hours ago, offbyone said:

Mathis is a complete unknown and you can only assume just that.  He might turn into a good player, but I sure wouldn't count on someone at Payne's level.  

Payne is not just a young elite player, but one we drafted.  For Washington fans, that is a rare commodity.  It would be a crying shame to not get him on a long term deal.  But I sure won't fault payne if he refuses to sign a reasonable deal after we didn't even make him an offer this offseason.  The options are clear, franchise tag or break the bank.

I am not counting on it, I’m giving it a chance to happen before I cast him away as not being the answer at starting NT.

I love @lavar703 like a brother, but he’s been doing this for 15 years or however long. If he didn’t want someone drafted, he doesn’t even give them a chance to develop before he makes the determination if they can play or not.

Lavar did this same thing with Jamin & Juice last year in just his rookie season. He can’t help but think that if someone isn’t immediately an impact player that they’re going to be a bust when the truth is everyone develops at their own rate. DFo wasn’t even on his radar as being a possible good safety for us when we drafted him.

Lavar & others thought we took Mathis a round or 2 early based off of Mock Draft predictions that mean absolutely nothing. All I’m saying is let’s see what happens & if Mathis reaches his potential then in a few years he will have proven he can be our starting NT & possibly at that time you trade Payne like before the 2025 or 26 season if Chase Young has developed into the superstar he has the potential potential to be.

I would only franchise tag Payne if he refused to re-sign on Allen’s deal. And if that happens & Payne would’ve played next year on the franchise tag, then I’d tag & trade him after the 2023 season like we should’ve done with Kirk & Scherff so we could get multiple picks instead of just a 3rd round comp which basically amounts to a 4th round pick.

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1 hour ago, turtle28 said:

I am not counting on it, I’m giving it a chance to happen before I cast him away as not being the answer at starting NT.

I love @lavar703 like a brother, but he’s been doing this for 15 years or however long. If he didn’t want someone drafted, he doesn’t even give them a chance to develop before he makes the determination if they can play or not.

Lavar did this same thing with Jamin & Juice last year in just his rookie season. He can’t help but think that if someone isn’t immediately an impact player that they’re going to be a bust when the truth is everyone develops at their own rate. DFo wasn’t even on his radar as being a possible good safety for us when we drafted him.

Lavar & others thought we took Mathis a round or 2 early based off of Mock Draft predictions that mean absolutely nothing. All I’m saying is let’s see what happens & if Mathis reaches his potential then in a few years he will have proven he can be our starting NT & possibly at that time you trade Payne like before the 2025 or 26 season if Chase Young has developed into the superstar he has the potential potential to be.

I would only franchise tag Payne if he refused to re-sign on Allen’s deal. And if that happens & Payne would’ve played next year on the franchise tag, then I’d tag & trade him after the 2023 season like we should’ve done with Kirk & Scherff so we could get multiple picks instead of just a 3rd round comp which basically amounts to a 4th round pick.

My biggest issue with Mathis is he was a superficial need they created for no reason whatsoever. Not to mention he'll be 25 going into his second season. Compare that to Payne who is one year old than Mathis and finishing out his 5th season. I felt as though our second round pick could've been used on one of the many LBs that fell in our lap or Jaquan Brisker. To put things into perspective we passed on George Pickens, Troy Anderson, James Cook, Chad Muma, Christian Harris and Nakobe Dean to take Mathis. I'm also not a fan of the Jahan Dotson pick and probably never will be considering Chris Olave is the one I wanted and he appears to be on a path to being an elite receiver. It does bother me that our first two picks have hardly contributed whether due to injury or not considering both were pretty big reaches at their respective pick position. 

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2 hours ago, turtle28 said:

I think DFo has established that he can be our FS, that’s why McCain is playing the slot. If McCain continues to play slot/Buffalo nickel at a decent rate the rest of the year then he’ll be back next year.

Butler & Reaves will remain our 4th & 5th safeties/core special teams players.

I know but Butler has played nickle and deep saftey in college. They subbed him in for McCain this last game in the nickle and deep and had curl and Forrest move down but it’s just nice to have the ability to run different looks

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6 hours ago, turtle28 said:

I am not counting on it, I’m giving it a chance to happen before I cast him away as not being the answer at starting NT.

I love @lavar703 like a brother, but he’s been doing this for 15 years or however long. If he didn’t want someone drafted, he doesn’t even give them a chance to develop before he makes the determination if they can play or not.

Lavar did this same thing with Jamin & Juice last year in just his rookie season. He can’t help but think that if someone isn’t immediately an impact player that they’re going to be a bust when the truth is everyone develops at their own rate. DFo wasn’t even on his radar as being a possible good safety for us when we drafted him.

Lavar & others thought we took Mathis a round or 2 early based off of Mock Draft predictions that mean absolutely nothing. All I’m saying is let’s see what happens & if Mathis reaches his potential then in a few years he will have proven he can be our starting NT & possibly at that time you trade Payne like before the 2025 or 26 season if Chase Young has developed into the superstar he has the potential potential to be.

I would only franchise tag Payne if he refused to re-sign on Allen’s deal. And if that happens & Payne would’ve played next year on the franchise tag, then I’d tag & trade him after the 2023 season like we should’ve done with Kirk & Scherff so we could get multiple picks instead of just a 3rd round comp which basically amounts to a 4th round pick.

I understand what you are saying, but we can't make decisions on what might be.  We have to make the decision on what we know.  And we know Payne is an elite player and Mathis is a complete unknown.  I hope Mathis ends up being better than Payne.  But at this point, Mathis doesn't count for diddly squat in the equation.  

In terms of Payne's deal, we definitely could have expected him to sign Allen's deal or likely a bit cheaper this offseason.  But that is done and dusted now.  Allen's deal is old and Payne is in the driver's seat because we were asleep at the wheel.  I would say add 10% or more.  We screwed this up, now we have to pay.

We absolutely could have traded Kirk.  But tag and trading a guard or dline, especially in the second year of the tag is very very unlikely.  The odds are against that working.  Tag and trade is rarely successful not on a qb and even less successful in season 2 of the franchise tag.

Just pay him.  Let Sweat walk.  Sweat is good, but not great and is benefiting greatly from Payne and Allen in front of him.  I would trade Sweat.

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9 hours ago, lavar703 said:

My biggest issue with Mathis is he was a superficial need they created for no reason whatsoever. Not to mention he'll be 25 going into his second season. Compare that to Payne who is one year old than Mathis and finishing out his 5th season. I felt as though our second round pick could've been used on one of the many LBs that fell in our lap or Jaquan Brisker. To put things into perspective we passed on George Pickens, Troy Anderson, James Cook, Chad Muma, Christian Harris and Nakobe Dean to take Mathis. I'm also not a fan of the Jahan Dotson pick and probably never will be considering Chris Olave is the one I wanted and he appears to be on a path to being an elite receiver. It does bother me that our first two picks have hardly contributed whether due to injury or not considering both were pretty big reaches at their respective pick position. 

That’s not Mathis’s fault. 
 

They obviously liked, even loved what they had in Kam Curl & DFo, so they saw no need for Brisker, hard to fault them considering how well those 2 have played this year.

Nakobe Dean is just a special teams player for the Eagles & he would’ve been for us too this year bc Holcomb & Jamin we’re going to be our starters & Curl or Jamin was going to play most of the snaps at Buffalo nickel/WLB/3rd S/true SS. 
 

Christian Harris & Muma would’ve been back ups/special teams players as well until Holcomb got hurt.

Jahan was offensive rookie of the week in week 1 & played at the same level in week 2 & 4. He flashed enough to let us know at worse he’s going to be very good. 
 

The whole reach stuff is bogus. If we didn’t take Dotson, he was probably going to be picked by Tenn the pick after or at worse Green Bay was probably taking him. Dotson & Mathis can’t help that they got hurt. It does suck they did bc if Jahan hadn’t I feel he’d have 40-45 catches, for 550-600 yds & 5 plus TDs. 
 

I have no idea the stats that Phil Mathis would’ve put up if he hadn’t gotten hurt, but the kid was throwing around opposing guards and centers in the preseason like rag dolls ala Allen & Payne. I’d have to imagine that Mathis would’ve had 15 tackles with a sack or 2 at the least.

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