Week 12: Ravens @ Jags

[DreamKid]

3 minutes ago, AFlaccoSeagulls said:

very hard to call Bateman a hit at this point.

It isn't at all, and that shouldn't have to be explained to you. Bateman was an impact player when healthy and immediately showcased 1st Round talent. That's a hit. You can't say you picked a bad lotto number if you win but someone robs the money from you. If I shoot Tyler Linderbaum in the head and he can't play, it doesn't mean he wasn't a hit at center. We would have drastically different offensive potential if Bateman was healthy right now.

There's only like 5 or 6 WRs in the entire league who can do this with Xavien Howard in coverage-

53 minutes ago, SalvadorsDeli said:

FA WR's don't want to come here because Greg Roman and John Harbaugh have made the offense as deeply unattractive as a destination for wideouts as possible.

The systemic issues brought on by Harbaugh and Roman have nothing to do with DeCosta though. He doesn't have the power to fire or replace them. 

No competent GM that has or will ever exist would just drop premium picks on the same position year after year, regardless of how the board falls. So no one should expect that of EDC. Every draft he's tried to provide Lamar with weapons 2019: Hollywood, Boykin, Hill 2020: Dobbins, Duvernay, Proche 2021: Bateman and Wallace 2022: Likely and Kolar. When Hollywood was traded we turned that compensation into Tyler Linderbaum, offensive line help for Lamar with All-Pro upside- while imo there were better defensive prospects on the board who presented larger upgrades than the jump from TCC and/or Mekari to Linderbaum.

Costs might be low on offense, partly because Lamar is still on his Rookie deal and also because EDC locked in some of the top value deals league wide with players like Andrews, Zeitler, and Moses- but that doesn't mean 'pennies' or assets have been pinched or inappropriately allocated. Every spot on offense but WR is ripe with depth and/or talent.

1 hour ago, SalvadorsDeli said:

The other is, if you're EDC and you are aware that your coaching staff has turned an offense with one of the most exciting young QB's in the league into one of the least attractive FA destinations in the league, you probably just need to be more aggressive on the trade market than he was, given that's apparently the only way to bring in talent at that position. Stefon Diggs was out there once upon a time. Amari Cooper was there just this past offseason. And on and on in between. We never tried, either because we actually deluded ourselves into believing weapons don't matter or just because this org is terrified of being seen to overpay for anything/anyone, so we just saved all our chips for an ILB instead. 

Diggs had personal problems with our organization(Ozzie), and character flags in his background(Biscotti). The Titans would never trade AJ Brown within the division, let alone to us. And again, the majority of these receivers are moved at the end of their Rookie deal. Which means they would need to agree to an extension with the team they are being traded to. So the 'WRs don't want to play here' factor is relevant once again.

With WR2 types like Cooper who knows if the organization tried or not. I'm not exactly going to blame them for being unable to stomach what will be 23 Mill+ cap hits for a so so WR hitting his 30s. Only for fans to scream about us not having a true WR1 and needing more help the following season after Amari Cooper nets 700-800 yards within our offense. Much like they screamed for us to win the Kenny Golladay sweepstakes a year ago, and boy has he lit the league on fire. 

I disagree with the Roquan Smith trade to this day, but there was no knowable equivalent move we left on the table for some 25 Y/O All Pro at WR. Kardarius Toney had injury and character flags. Calvin Ridley is suspended indefinitely. Robbie Anderson character flags. Chase Claypool is awful and was moved for a Top 50 pick. Those were the players traded.

The hard truth is most of this comes down to where we pick in the draft(Having shots at WR1 type talents), our terrible offensive system(Roman), Biscotti's top down standards when it comes to player character(which will consistently limit our options at WR specifically), talent development(WR coaches), and luck(injury rate at the position + viable trade candidates). Lamar's inconsistent outside accuracy and deluded fans' head canon about EDC's imagined aversion to WRs are just red herrings imo. 

[DreamKid]

20 minutes ago, coordinator0 said:

Yeah, it's Roman. 

Don't see how anyone can disagree. If someone like McVay, Reid, etc were in charge of our offense right now we wouldn't have problems bringing in WR talent- no debate.

[diamondbull424]

6 hours ago, DreamKid said:

Acknowledge our predicament with the position, acknowledge the assets we've already poured into the position, and explain what we should do differently.

We should’ve put more priority over WR in this past draft. Hollywood with Bateman was a good enough base of talent to be varied and explosive with.

We lost Hollywood and we were negotiating with Lamar, psychologically you’re telling Lamar you don’t value him when you trade away his number one and then don’t give him additional help at WR.

This organization hasn’t had much problem recruiting defense. I like the potential Ojabo and Travis Jones bring to the table, but I would’ve traded up to secure Christian Watson. I said it on draft day. He’s 6’4” 210 lbs with 4.3 speed, elite vertical numbers, 6/10 hands, and had experience within a similar scheme in college.

I think the front office was enamored with the BPA to the point that they ignored their recruiting challenges as if they don’t exist.

 

The other option was to trade up in the 1st round to secure whichever WR we were most enamored with considering it was only one. Hamilton should be pretty awesome and was really making waves, but considering the context of our recruiting issues, it’s no question for me that an impact WR is the far more intriguing proposition considering we had Williams, Clark, Stone, and developmental options like Washington plus a ton of 4th round picks that could’ve been used on another safety later.

Edited November 30, 2022 by diamondbull424

[DreamKid]

21 minutes ago, diamondbull424 said:

We lost Hollywood and we were negotiating with Lamar, psychologically you’re telling Lamar you don’t value him when you trade away his number one and then don’t give him additional help at WR.

Hollywood had asked for a trade the previous season and Lamar was aware of that, so I don't think that was a factor. The FO asked Lamar what WRs he liked in the draft and he identified Hollywood- who we later picked. From that point Lamar didn't say much more about WRs and has spent a lot of time working out with Bateman & Andrews. He really likes Duvernay too. The most recent request that's publicly trickled out from Lamar(besides the fully guaranteed max deal 😅), was OL help. There's the memorable DeCosta quote from this last offseason "I frequently ask Lamar what we can do to help him, and he always says offensive line". Which we accommodated with Moses, Linderbaum, Faalele, and the Mekari extension. So I think he understands his input is valued and that supporting him is paramount for the organization. Just wish he'd stop being so diplomatic and request Roman's firing....

32 minutes ago, diamondbull424 said:

This organization hasn’t had much problem recruiting defense. I like the potential Ojabo and Travis Jones bring to the table, but I would’ve traded up to secure Christian Watson. I said it on draft day. He’s 6’4” 210 lbs with 4.3 speed, elite vertical numbers, 6/10 hands, and had experience within a similar scheme in college.

I really like Travis Jones and the upside of Ojabo(especially in light of Oweh's step backwards), so I can't say I'd make that move, but I do understand the sentiment. In that 2020 draft I absolutely wanted DeCosta to trade up for Ceedee Lamb or Justin Jefferson, made too much sense. 

40 minutes ago, diamondbull424 said:

The other option was to trade up in the 1st round to secure whichever WR we were most enamored with. Hamilton should be pretty awesome and was really making waves, but considering the context of our recruiting issues, it’s no question that an impact WR is the far more intriguing proposition.

We all kind of deduced from DeCosta's post draft words that WR was on the table for Pick 14 but with four going right up ahead of our selection and Kyle Hamilton sliding that shook things up. Both of us were super high on Olave going back to discussions from 2 years ago when we thought he might enter the draft as RS sophomore. I would've loved that addition.

[AFlaccoSeagulls]

3 hours ago, DreamKid said:

Don't see how anyone can disagree. If someone like McVay, Reid, etc were in charge of our offense right now we wouldn't have problems bringing in WR talent- no debate.

We've had WR issues LONG before Roman was here. Our WR issues have existed since the beginning of this franchise.

3 hours ago, DreamKid said:

It isn't at all, and that shouldn't have to be explained to you. Bateman was an impact player when healthy and immediately showcased 1st Round talent. That's a hit. You can't say you picked a bad lotto number if you win but someone robs the money from you. If I shoot Tyler Linderbaum in the head and he can't play, it doesn't mean he wasn't a hit at center. We would have drastically different offensive potential if Bateman was healthy right now.

Bateman has talent, that's undeniable, but he can't stay on the field. That's why I don't think you can call him a hit.

[diamondbull424]

7 hours ago, DreamKid said:

Hollywood had asked for a trade the previous season and Lamar was aware of that, so I don't think that was a factor. The FO asked Lamar what WRs he liked in the draft and he identified Hollywood- who we later picked. From that point Lamar didn't say much more about WRs and has spent a lot of time working out with Bateman & Andrews. He really likes Duvernay too. The most recent request that's publicly trickled out from Lamar(besides the fully guaranteed max deal 😅), was OL help. There's the memorable DeCosta quote from this last offseason "I frequently ask Lamar what we can do to help him, and he always says offensive line". Which we accommodated with Moses, Linderbaum, Faalele, and the Mekari extension. So I think he understands his input is valued and that supporting him is paramount for the organization. Just wish he'd stop being so diplomatic and request Roman's firing....

Oh no doubt, I know we did an excellent job with building up our OL. That I absolutely agree with. Yet at the same time other front offices- the Jets for example- are throwing a bunch at both the OL as well as WR first. Especially in a contract year, you would think they would do everything in their power to say, “we’ve done all we can do, so prove to us you can ball out and let’s get you a new contract.” That would’ve been the ultimate display of support IMO. Whereas trading Hollywood for Linderbaum is excellent, but just feels like a lateral move for the offense and not one that shows overwhelming commitment to Lamar- especially when he’s not getting that commitment from a contract perspective, heck he might’ve been even more likely to sign if we have overwhelming provided him with weapons offensively.

7 hours ago, DreamKid said:

I really like Travis Jones and the upside of Ojabo(especially in light of Oweh's step backwards), so I can't say I'd make that move, but I do understand the sentiment. In that 2020 draft I absolutely wanted DeCosta to trade up for Ceedee Lamb or Justin Jefferson, made too much sense. 

Oh yeah strategically from a team building perspective, drafting Ojabo and Jones are absolutely a better move than securing a worse collegiate performer. Even from an upside perspective Ojabo’s upside and Jones upside are just as high as Watson positionally.

We also can’t understate getting our new DC MM his guy from his former program to ride with and activate with.

But again, if the organization is going to keep Roman, they’ve got to start making some aggressive moves.

Its sort of embarrassing that we’re willing to trade a future 2nd round pick for a LB but won’t trade that same future pick to move up and get a difference maker at WR in the 1st round when they’re flying off the board early because everyone else is trying to secure overwhelming WR talent for their young QBs. We know we can’t trade for a WR that’ll want to sign long term and we know we can’t sign one in FA and out compete better passing systems, so EDC has got to be willing to take an L if they’re truly “going all in on Lamar” like every media personality says when they talk about our “unique offense forged by the high elves and then cultivated by Saint Roman to be designed specifically for Lamar.”

7 hours ago, DreamKid said:

We all kind of deduced from DeCosta's post draft words that WR was on the table for Pick 14 but with four going right up ahead of our selection and Kyle Hamilton sliding that shook things up. Both of us were super high on Olave going back to discussions from 2 years ago when we thought he might enter the draft as RS sophomore. I would've loved that addition.

Absolutely, it’s no surprise to me that he’s been balling out, he might not have had the elite measurables, but dude was just such a fantastic route runner and all around incredibly reliable for Fields making countless big plays. I’m still not sure why the other WRs were somehow considered a level better. It’s not as if there was a Megatron or Julio in the draft. Beyond that you’re not getting much better than a WR that can be a walking 1000 yard option every season like Olave.

Though I figured the front office wouldn’t be as high on him given he’s very similar to Bateman in that both are sort of that reliable (when not injured) Diggs type of WR and not that Tyreek (speed) or Evans (size) type. I didn’t think they would be interested in the redundancy.

[diamondbull424]

That all said, now our team NEEDS a CB, but we also NEED a WR too. So while CB should be a top two round draft need, without a second round selection, it’ll put the front office in a bind.

Do they take BPA like they always do and put the WR room in a bind if CB is the highest ranked option on our board at the time of the pick? Do they get aggressive and address the need at corner in the offseason with a trade for a veteran? Do they put money back into the Marcus Peters basket, run it back, and hope he regains his explosiveness and hope the talent invested this past season ripens? Hope that Pepe and JAD become something more than just JAGs.

Because hopefully the front office understands that WRs will be in all likelihood flying off the board earlier than you’d normally think, so if we want a very specific guy, we need to move up for such a guy.

Edited November 30, 2022 by diamondbull424

[M.10.E]

31 minutes ago, diamondbull424 said:

we need to move up for such a guy.

We traded our 2nd rounder which makes me believe there's a 75% chance we trade down in the first round.

[wackywabbit]

I rewatched this game this morning. Lamar played objectively well. He shouldn't be lashing out on twitter after games, but otherwise it is dumb that his play was criticized. One possible excuse for the other offensive skill players is that it looked like pretty much all of them were playing hurt and not moving well, but they let Lamar down. Mekari was exposed at LT today, his lack of length was a big problem against the raw freaks the Jags have. He deserves a lot of credit for filling in everywhere and usually being passable, but not this week. Stanley would have made a huge difference

Corner is thin, which is more of a reason we missed our safeties. Peters seems to be either good or terrible this year and seems that he decided to take this game off. Oweh is not even playing most of the snaps. The best thing he does is disrupt rollouts, because he is faster than even the mobile QBs. Bateman-Oweh year 2 is the biggest disappointment of the season by far. Tyus Bowser looks back though.

Again, I feel like we would have won this game 9 time out of 10 even with the cast out there. Lawrence got a ton of praise for this game and his stats which look great, but he had 2 turnover deserving plays on that last drive alone. He had a couple dimes that would have been tough to stop even with good coverage. But, the 8-20 yard range right down the middle was a coverage disaster.