WEEK 13: Bronco's @ Ravens

[Broncofan]

5 minutes ago, The Helicopter said:

Is Baker Mayfield an improvement?

Sadly…..easy No.  

[Dbrog24]

1 hour ago, The Helicopter said:

If Seattle got our R1 pick this last draft and the next one, that wraps up the deal, no? My point was if we roll into next year unchanged and suck again, the following draft we'll have our own R1 selection...right? That's the only way I see out of this nonsense. Suck hard 1 more year for massive change.

Yes. The trade was for our pick last year and this year. We have our own for 2024. Kinda pissed that as of right now, we are giving up the #3 pick right now to Seattle. That's the highest we will have had since our Superbowl win. We are living the reality that Keenum, FLACO, Lock and all the other million QBs ALL resulted in a better record than our all-time defense but Wilson led Broncos. I stopped watching after the Titans lost and honestly feel so much better mentally. Screw this team. Go Bangles this year for me

[broncosfan_101]

16 hours ago, lomaxgrUK said:

I caught the game, mostly without commentary as i was watching England win their WC knockout game. 

Played to lose and lost. Defense was excellent until the one drive we actually needed them to be. 

Laughing stock of the league. 

On the bright side…it’s coming home.

[broncos67]

14 hours ago, broncosfan_101 said:

On the bright side…it’s coming home.

Lol

[lomaxgrUK]

Has anyone got any good videos/twitter threads/articles on specifics around our Offensive struggles?

I am honestly dumbfounded how it can be this bad. I saw Tim Jenkins' video this week, and it wasn't very long and not a lot of detail (there was one hilarious clip of us on 3rd down and 3 WRs were within 5 yards of each other).

I just want to understand where to focus my negative energy. I honestly don't think I've not watched (live or replay) more than 3 Broncos game total in 10 years; I've never been more tempted than I am now. We are going to have go from December all the way to May hearing about how we gave away a top 3 (or top 5 by some miracle) for a QB who looks so washed. 

 

[broncos67]

44 minutes ago, lomaxgrUK said:

Has anyone got any good videos/twitter threads/articles on specifics around our Offensive struggles?

I am honestly dumbfounded how it can be this bad. I saw Tim Jenkins' video this week, and it wasn't very long and not a lot of detail (there was one hilarious clip of us on 3rd down and 3 WRs were within 5 yards of each other).

I just want to understand where to focus my negative energy. I honestly don't think I've not watched (live or replay) more than 3 Broncos game total in 10 years; I've never been more tempted than I am now. We are going to have go from December all the way to May hearing about how we gave away a top 3 (or top 5 by some miracle) for a QB who looks so washed. 

 

I don't have anything I've seen, but I will speculate that it starts with the abysmal OL play. We look completely lost up front most of the time. I think scheming is a part of the issue, though I've also seen stats suggesting our WRs do get open but Russ isn't hitting them. If I come across anything on Twitter I'll let you know.

[Zukhyubern]

21 minutes ago, broncos67 said:

I don't have anything I've seen, but I will speculate that it starts with the abysmal OL play. We look completely lost up front most of the time. I think scheming is a part of the issue, though I've also seen stats suggesting our WRs do get open but Russ isn't hitting them. If I come across anything on Twitter I'll let you know.

To be fair, often when he DOES find them they either drop the ball or do t run a full route to the sticks. 

[Broncofan]

1 hour ago, broncos67 said:

I don't have anything I've seen, but I will speculate that it starts with the abysmal OL play. We look completely lost up front most of the time. I think scheming is a part of the issue, though I've also seen stats suggesting our WRs do get open but Russ isn't hitting them. If I come across anything on Twitter I'll let you know.

For Jeudy & Sutton (at least to Wk10), it's absolutely accurate they were getting open (and since Jeudy missed Week 11-12, and got 4-65 on TWENTY snaps while not at 100 percent, I think we can say it still holds):

 

Now, Sutton's worst games came after Week 10 - so who knows if it's as accurate (TEN was all about volume, but also this season ironically, Sutton's experienced a fair number of drops).   I would say getting open only applies to Jeudy/Sutton, though - there aren't enough snaps to show the others, but they apparently don't have nearly the same success.

I know it's unpopular, but it's pretty clear Jeudy is a key to having the O function.   Not only does he get open - but it keeps D's from keying on Dulcich - that was the plan A by TEN once Jeudy left that game, and again vs. LV & CAR - Sutton still produces, but Dulcich's production vanishes, and by the tape, it's clear why .    With Jeudy/Sutton out on the field in the 1H vs. BAL, no surprise Dulcich found success.   Sutton alone, the D's clearly take Dulcich away and live with Sutton facing their top CB.   When both play, the D's can't take away Dulcich unless they feel both their top 2 CB's can take Jeudy/Sutton out. 

Either way, I don't think the WR's are a spending priority this offseason (other than value tier or later in draft for development), given how much we need to address OL & DL (and cover LB), with Patrick coming back (recognizing he's not likely full peak athleticism version until 2024).    And with Jeudy/Sutton/Dulcich together, there are no excuses for Russ having no one open, IMO.   But, when you only have Sutton, there were clear issues in the TEN/LV/CAR game.   

One other observation - the lack of any real RB pass catching threat is an absolute killer.  That's where losing Javonte, and then Chase Edmonds, kills us.    Again, it's not going to be that hard to find better RB's this offseason with the deep FA & draft class, but this also would help a ton.       

 

FWIW, I agree it absolutely begins with our OL and our play calling (not going for it on 4th and half a yard, running on 3rd and 5 in our first scoring drive, and trying to throw on 3rd down to win the game in the 4Q with no Jeudy/Dulcich on the field - that's ALL scheme/play-calling/personnel), and not the top WR's - when Jeudy/Sutton are there, esp combined with Dulcich. 

It could still be better if we had a reliable WR3 and pass catching RB threat (but those are depth areas to target, and not a high-priority resource-wise, given how deep RB is this year at FA/draft).    OL just has to be our #1 priority this offseason in both FA & draft (find 1 FA starter, 1 swing guy at FA, and 2 of our first 4 picks have to be T & IOL IMO).

Edited December 6, 2022 by Broncofan

[big_palooka]

6 hours ago, lomaxgrUK said:

Has anyone got any good videos/twitter threads/articles on specifics around our Offensive struggles?

I am honestly dumbfounded how it can be this bad. I saw Tim Jenkins' video this week, and it wasn't very long and not a lot of detail (there was one hilarious clip of us on 3rd down and 3 WRs were within 5 yards of each other).

I just want to understand where to focus my negative energy. I honestly don't think I've not watched (live or replay) more than 3 Broncos game total in 10 years; I've never been more tempted than I am now. We are going to have go from December all the way to May hearing about how we gave away a top 3 (or top 5 by some miracle) for a QB who looks so washed. 

 

Did you watch JO O'Sullivan on Russell Wilson? I would start there. Everything he said makes sense regarding his feet, defensive reads, etc. 

[Dbrog24]

7 hours ago, lomaxgrUK said:

Has anyone got any good videos/twitter threads/articles on specifics around our Offensive struggles?

I am honestly dumbfounded how it can be this bad. I saw Tim Jenkins' video this week, and it wasn't very long and not a lot of detail (there was one hilarious clip of us on 3rd down and 3 WRs were within 5 yards of each other).

I just want to understand where to focus my negative energy. I honestly don't think I've not watched (live or replay) more than 3 Broncos game total in 10 years; I've never been more tempted than I am now. We are going to have go from December all the way to May hearing about how we gave away a top 3 (or top 5 by some miracle) for a QB who looks so washed. 

 

The Kurt Warner breakdown was honestly really eye opening for me a few weeks back. Good technical talk and comparisons where the Bills were running some of the exact same stuff as us but executing/understanding better. Also Stink did a decent breakdown on the podcast from 11/29 and he compares what Russ did in our first game vs what he has been running now with our offense (in the "hour 1"). He also talks about how our guys technique is just poor...not being coached properly. In this link he talks about the timing of route combinations and lack of cohesiveness/rhythm with plays

 https://denverfan.com/category/podcast_player/?a=71703594-f9c1-4e6b-90d4-af5c01138c8e&pr=ad5c5fb7-c147-4990-a5c1-a8c60104cf10&pl=d469ae11-0480-408b-ac77-a8c60104cf10&n=Schlereth+and+Evans

 

[AnAngryAmerican]

6 hours ago, Broncofan said:

For Jeudy & Sutton (at least to Wk10), it's absolutely accurate they were getting open (and since Jeudy missed Week 11-12, and got 4-65 on TWENTY snaps while not at 100 percent, I think we can say it still holds):

 

Now, Sutton's worst games came after Week 10 - so who knows if it's as accurate (TEN was all about volume, but also this season ironically, Sutton's experienced a fair number of drops).   I would say getting open only applies to Jeudy/Sutton, though - there aren't enough snaps to show the others, but they apparently don't have nearly the same success.

I know it's unpopular, but it's pretty clear Jeudy is a key to having the O function.   Not only does he get open - but it keeps D's from keying on Dulcich - that was the plan A by TEN once Jeudy left that game, and again vs. LV & CAR - Sutton still produces, but Dulcich's production vanishes, and by the tape, it's clear why .    With Jeudy/Sutton out on the field in the 1H vs. BAL, no surprise Dulcich found success.   Sutton alone, the D's clearly take Dulcich away and live with Sutton facing their top CB.   When both play, the D's can't take away Dulcich unless they feel both their top 2 CB's can take Jeudy/Sutton out. 

Either way, I don't think the WR's are a spending priority this offseason (other than value tier or later in draft for development), given how much we need to address OL & DL (and cover LB), with Patrick coming back (recognizing he's not likely full peak athleticism version until 2024).    And with Jeudy/Sutton/Dulcich together, there are no excuses for Russ having no one open, IMO.   But, when you only have Sutton, there were clear issues in the TEN/LV/CAR game.   

One other observation - the lack of any real RB pass catching threat is an absolute killer.  That's where losing Javonte, and then Chase Edmonds, kills us.    Again, it's not going to be that hard to find better RB's this offseason with the deep FA & draft class, but this also would help a ton.       

 

FWIW, I agree it absolutely begins with our OL and our play calling (not going for it on 4th and half a yard, running on 3rd and 5 in our first scoring drive, and trying to throw on 3rd down to win the game in the 4Q with no Jeudy/Dulcich on the field - that's ALL scheme/play-calling/personnel), and not the top WR's - when Jeudy/Sutton are there, esp combined with Dulcich. 

It could still be better if we had a reliable WR3 and pass catching RB threat (but those are depth areas to target, and not a high-priority resource-wise, given how deep RB is this year at FA/draft).    OL just has to be our #1 priority this offseason in both FA & draft (find 1 FA starter, 1 swing guy at FA, and 2 of our first 4 picks have to be T & IOL IMO).

I know there’s going to be a lot of big name FA RBs on the market this year. They will all get overpaid and George (or whomever is the GM come March) sure as crap better not give big money to a FA RB.

The position is a rookie contract and no more position; look how badly Dallas screwed up giving big money to Elliot, and that’s just one of dozens upon dozens of examples. The Derrick Henrys and Adrian Petersons of the world are the exceptions, if not unicorns. 

Spend a mid to late round pick on a guy (or two), add some UDFAs who fit the system and fill the rest of the stable with young, low-mileage, cheap guys under 26. Depth guys who know the system and fit the scheme (whatever the new GM/HC/OC wants) and gain experience throughout the offseason and can step in is the way to go. Paying for a name with mileage on the tires is a fools errand.

The FA money needs to be spent adding a real, long term, RT and a C. They should resign Risner, who will take a hometown discount, and add real depth. Resign Dre’mont and add some depth, both in the draft and FA.

Get a legit coverage ILB, or 3 of them, and add more depth late in the draft to the secondary. 

A real coaching staff would help. As would a real training staff.

After Greek - long regarded as one of the very best in the league (even Mac retained him rather than get a Patriot Way trainer) - retired the team turned to Loren Landow, and hired him because his “facility” is down the street from Dove Valley and he does well with the high school kids from Creek and Valor. He is clearly not in any way, shape or form, equipped to be an NFL strength and conditioning coach and should have been fired a long time ago. Ellis hired Landow because he was close, inexpensive and had the endorsement of Dave Logan and other power brokers in the south metro. 

Edited December 6, 2022 by AnAngryAmerican

[Broncofan]

9 minutes ago, AnAngryAmerican said:

I know there’s going to be a lot of big name FA RBs on the market this year. They will all get overpaid and George (or whomever is the GM come March) sure as crap better not give big money to a FA RB.

The position is a rookie contract and no more position; look how badly Dallas screwed up giving big money to Elliot, and that’s just one of dozens upon dozens of examples. The Derrick Henrys and Adrian Petersons of the world are the exceptions, if not unicorns. 

Spend a mid to late round pick on a guy (or two), add some UDFAs who fit the system and fill the rest of the stable with young, low-mileage, cheap guys under 26. Depth guys who know the system and fit the scheme (whatever the new GM/HC/OC wants) and gain experience throughout the offseason and can step in is the way to go. Paying for a name with mileage on the tires is a fools errand.

The FA money needs to be spent adding a real, long term, RT and a C. They should resign Risner, who will take a hometown discount, and add real depth. Resign Dre’mont and add some depth, both in the draft and FA.

Get a legit coverage ILB, or 3 of them, and add more depth late in the draft to the secondary. 

A real coaching staff would help. As would a real training staff.

After Greek - long regarded as one of the very best in the league (even Max retained him rather than get a Patriot Way trainer) - retired the team turned to Loren Landow, and hired him because his “facility” is down the street from Dove Valley and he does well with the high school kids from Creek and Valor. He is clearly not in any way, shape or form, equipped to be an NFL strength and conditioning coach and should have been fired a long time ago. Ellis hired Landow because he was close, inexpensive and had the endorsement of Dave Logan and other power brokers in the south metro. 

Once the top 3-4 RB's are off the board - the 5th-8th RB's will likely be VERY much in the value tier.      Saquon, Jacobs, Tony Pollard, etc. at 10-14M AAV range - no thanks.  But getting a Devin Singletary, D'onta Foreman at 2/8M, or a D'Ernest Johnson at 2/6M?  That's a lot of value, because they can be starters, while Javonte & 2023 rookie get back in shape (and you're not tied to just 1-2 guys, ideally you have 3 guys you're comfortable with - we had 1 this year, MG3 was washed).    Jamaal Williams 12 TD's probably prices him out of the value range, but if he fell, sure.    And to be clear - we should still draft a RB in Day 3 - because this is the year you could find a Kareem Hunt type value (like Dameon Pierce last offseason).   The RB tier is that deep.

We're absolutely going to need to get at least 1 starter on the OL in FA.   We can only rely on Rd1 for a T starter; it's possible, but asking a lot to get a Day 1 IOL starter from Rd3.   And we will need to find a DL difference maker, so that's hard to count on the draft from R3 too, so FA has to provide DL depth there.     Cover ILB is where Rd3-4 (remember I think we have 3 picks in Rd3-4, and early in both rounds) can help IMO.   

In a perfect world, FA gets us a starting IOL, a decent D-lineman to pair with a Dre'mont extension, a WR3 type (budget 6-8M tier, not big $) and a a swing O, along with that value FA RB signing.   Then we can attack the OL / DL / cover ILB / future RB in the draft.    

Edited December 6, 2022 by Broncofan

[AnAngryAmerican]

3 hours ago, Broncofan said:

Once the top 3-4 RB's are off the board - the 5th-8th RB's will likely be VERY much in the value tier.      Saquon, Jacobs, Tony Pollard, etc. at 10-14M AAV range - no thanks.  But getting a Devin Singletary, D'onta Foreman at 2/8M, or a D'Ernest Johnson at 2/6M?  That's a lot of value, because they can be starters, while Javonte & 2023 rookie get back in shape (and you're not tied to just 1-2 guys, ideally you have 3 guys you're comfortable with - we had 1 this year, MG3 was washed).    Jamaal Williams 12 TD's probably prices him out of the value range, but if he fell, sure.    And to be clear - we should still draft a RB in Day 3 - because this is the year you could find a Kareem Hunt type value (like Dameon Pierce last offseason).   The RB tier is that deep.

We're absolutely going to need to get at least 1 starter on the OL in FA.   We can only rely on Rd1 for a T starter; it's possible, but asking a lot to get a Day 1 IOL starter from Rd3.   And we will need to find a DL difference maker, so that's hard to count on the draft from R3 too, so FA has to provide DL depth there.     Cover ILB is where Rd3-4 (remember I think we have 3 picks in Rd3-4, and early in both rounds) can help IMO.   

In a perfect world, FA gets us a starting IOL, a decent D-lineman to pair with a Dre'mont extension, a WR3 type (budget 6-8M tier, not big $) and a a swing O, along with that value FA RB signing.   Then we can attack the OL / DL / cover ILB / future RB in the draft.    

Ok.

[broncos67]

Landow needs to go, but I would say the reason he was hired was because a ton of players at the time were utilizing him as their personal trainer on the side and it made sense to retain him formally. Not saying it's right or wrong, but injuries have absolutely gone up under him. I would be starting with getting rid of him.

[Broncofan]

23 hours ago, broncos67 said:

I don't have anything I've seen, but I will speculate that it starts with the abysmal OL play. We look completely lost up front most of the time. I think scheming is a part of the issue, though I've also seen stats suggesting our WRs do get open but Russ isn't hitting them. If I come across anything on Twitter I'll let you know.

To follow-up - this is the latest, and it's eye opening how much Jeudy alone stands above the crowd vs. man coverage.     Sutton not quite as much (which matches what we've been seeing the last 3 weeks), and both don't fare nearly as well vs. zone - which calls into whether it's Wilson's recognition, their ability to get open, the play-calls, or a combo of all 3.