2023 NFL Draft

[Crimmage]

38 minutes ago, m haynes said:

I think you will be scratching your head once you look into his game. Hard pass from me in the 1st Rd and top of the 2nd.

Didn't you not like Olave last year when I was saying he would be amazing on the Patriots . My current knocks I see for him based off the two games I watched are:

• He's incredibly small. He is listed as 175 but he could be even smaller, you're going to have the same issues with press that Thornton has now. I don't think you can play him on the outside because of that. This offseason they may decide the same for Thornton and want to play him 50/50 in the slot for free releases.. then you're going to end up with all your players only being good out of the slot!?
• He lacks breakaway speed .. his route running is legit, awesome agility and quickness.. but he's going to get run down at the next level. Not a deal breaker but if you are going to spend a top 15 pick I'd like the guy to be the complete package. 

At least with Smith-Njigba he is 200lb so I don't have that concern about size. They both lack elite speed but at least with Smith-Njigba I think he can be a #1 in the league and play inside/outside. Losing a year to a hamstring injury is a bit scary to me but I don't think he's ever had other injuries so that may be a fluke. His 2021 tape is top 10 pick though, if you can get him 15-20 I think you're in incredible shape because he would compliment Thornton very well. 

38 minutes ago, m haynes said:

DB's talent out shines all (wide margin) in this draft.  They are 2 RDs  deep with talent.  You could trade down however your not going to get much. There's no one worth giving up multiple  picks.  More like... I'll trade my 25th and a 3rd for 20 !!!!

I agree that DB talent is all over the place, but that's also why you may be able to wait till the 4th and get a guy who should be a 2nd round talent. 

Don't forget that Rams pick is practically a 3rd rounder with how awful they've been.. you can get a good DB there. Same with if you fall in love with another player you could package those other 2 fourth rounders and jump up to get someone in the 3rd. 

I also believe this is a pretty deep TE draft, you could have 5+ guys who are starters in this league for a long time. Not elite, but good starters. If you bring in an OC who wants a TE catching passes, you'd be foolish to pass up on one of those guys in the first 3 rounds. 

38 minutes ago, m haynes said:

Top of the draft yes, QB falls or someone is love with a certain player. After 15 most team make minor trades or just wait to see who falls.

Anthony Richardson will be that guy, Bill and Matt Groh should dangle him to every team after them and try to get a free 1st round pick next year. As a reminder of that trade it was: 

Bears Trade: 20th overall pick, 5th rounder, a future 1st and a future 4th

Giants Trade: 11th overall pick

This is right around where the Patriots should be picking if they lose out the rest of the way which appears most likely. You can gather a future 1st from a bad team which will help you trade up next year if Mac isn't the guy.. and you can still get a good LT / WR.. or even trade back up from there if you feel you'll lose a guy within a couple picks. 

38 minutes ago, m haynes said:

PS This draft is so bad, I see 2 DTs worth a 1/2 RD pick and 3/4 (just) LB's  as well !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I have been disappointed in the reports for ILB so far.. really not many guys projected to be impact players. I think you could bandaid that though with free agency if necessary, their are a few OLB/ILB available who are under 30 and would be decent starters here (Bobby Okereke / David Long). We won't hear much about who to look out for on day 3 for awhile though.. the senior bowl could tell a lot. Look at a guy like Malcolm Rodriguez last year, he was a guy I liked and he ended up going in the 6th... he's now a major contributor on that Lions defense that could make the playoffs. Give me 1-2 free agents along with a developmental guy and I'll be happy. 

 

They are going to have 11 picks, I'm also 100% fine with them turning that into 6 picks and getting them all in the top 100 for impact guys. Do I think that will happen? Nope, but this early in the draft process we are always saying a draft is either garbage or great and it's usually somewhere in between. I'm confident Groh will find some players here, the Senior Bowl this year is stacked.. go there and you'll find plenty of guys worthy of being drafted. 

[m haynes]

21 hours ago, Crimmage said:

pretty deep TE draft,

Flowers is the same guy. Only difference is QB at Pitt/USC. You can get him in the 2nd RD.

21 hours ago, Crimmage said:

pretty deep TE draft

I have yet to look at the TE.  This has been depressing season.  The effort right now concerning the draft is low.  Why waste my time when you know BB will do little to fix the offense. He will use his guys until he leaves or is fired.  IMO I think he feels set at TE which is nuts!!!!!

Josh goes to the Raiders with all those weapons and the Raiders offense ( Pats offense ) stinks.  So i have to say, who in the world can fix the problems???? There is only one person, and its YOUNG TB.   Who is not walking through the door. Also I would lose it if they bring him back.  That's just like the Pats i grew up with. Bring in some old guy with no future, to keep the fans coming!!!! No Thanks.

You need to blow up this offense, until than its wait til BB leaves. Billy O'Brien. Talking sports heads acting like he's some Pats guru,  GMAFB!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Just look at the QB situation, your looking at least  3/4 years till you MIGHT have one, if Mac doesn't work out. If you keep this offense it will be longer!!!!! What BB did this year with Fat Matt has put the future of the Pats in serous jeopardy. Who hang thier young QB out to dry???? Look at the old Pats players coming out against Mac, why, BB will see crap!!! Yup way to build for the future!! MOF they don't have a future until he gets the record or is fired.

BB will keep this offense. he has no choice. Why because with a complete overhaul, he would be about 100 years old to get the record!!!!!!!!  Yes I'm being sarcastic to make my point.  Placing Fatt Matt is the second monumental mistake, right behind getting rid of Tom Brady. Forgot to compound that mistake his (NO) plan had Cam Newton replacing him!!!! 

This draft will be 4 years without TB. Now add the Fat Matt factor that's another 3/4 years, maybe more. I have seen this before 3/4 years turn into 20 with a blink of a eye. Pats fan can't use the excuse, in BB we trust because he only cares about HIS FUTURE.  Do Pats fans actually believe he will make major changes to what he knows and done for years???

Sorry for the rant, but I'm to old to go through this crap again.   I'm sitting here shaking my head, Fat Matt !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Edited December 24, 2022 by m haynes

[Crimmage]

It's going to be very interesting to see what happens with Marcus Jones this offseason too, BB could go in a lot of different directions with him. 

• 5ft 8in in a league where big slots are becoming more and more common 
  • He has been moss'd a few times .. but he holds his own against bigger guys
• Easily 4.3 speed even though he didn't run at the combine. He has been recorded as the only player to go over 20MPH on the team twice.. I'm assuming Thornton has more high end speed but Jones reaches his speed near instantly
• He has tremendous ball skills 
• Amazing in space ( hence all the screens and his ability to make things happen on special teams) 

 

The question is.. where should he play? 

• The easy answer is full time slot, I think he could be a pro bowler in the slot
  • the counter argument is that he's so talented his skills may be best used elsewhere
  • Playing DB is going to keep him healthier overall given that he won't be getting tackled all the time
• Full time slot WR
  • Could he handle taking those hits full time at 174 pounds? 
  • Zay Flowers is the same size, assuming he is as fast as they claim.. certainly possible they fall in love with him seeing how well Marcus Jones has done this season
  • Marcus may have a say in this too.. he has made a point multiple times that he is a DB who will help the team however they need. I don't think he wants to be a WR full time. 
• FS
  • Given how smart he is, his make up speed, and ball skills.. could he be the perfect McCourty replacement? Tyrann Mathieu probably weighs more but is about the same size and has been a great player for a long time
  • I'd argue that it's harder to find an elite FS than an elite slot
  • His size won't matter so much at FS because he will primarily be a help guy/last line of defense and you've got another safety who will focus on TE's 

 

Given how great this DB draft is.. whoever is available may help decide things, but I think that's going to be talking point among the coaches this offseason. The same with special teams, I would probably replace him on kickoffs and keep him on punts to help lessen the workload too. 

 

Right now I lean towards keeping him in the slot and moving Jon Jones to FS assuming they resign him. If they don't, i would strongly consider moving him to FS and drafting 2 more CB's this draft (1 Slot, 1 Outside). I would keep the Marcus Jones package on offense but use it very sparingly, not an every game thing.. poor guy can't keep that going all season

Edited December 26, 2022 by Crimmage

[silence22]

Seems like Jaylon Jones is a perfect fit...he's a CB, his last name is Jones, and he's currently projected by a bunch of people to go in the 2nd...sounds like a Belichick dream come true. 

[m haynes]

Sleeper  Under develop player from a big program that plays multiple positions.  Work full time as a TE they could have something.

Cade Stover 

Cade Stover - Draft Network

Cade Stover || Ohio State Buckeyes Tight End || 2022 Senior Highlights - YouTube

I always like this type of player. Loves football and will play anywhere the team needs him.

Edited December 29, 2022 by m haynes

[Crimmage]

I stand by the belief that TE will be a large need this offseason. For one of two reasons: 

1) They will re-dedicate themselves to focusing on the TE position in the offense

2) They will reduce the impact of the position as it relates to the passing game and focus more on blocking

 

Either way, the current TE's they have aren't ideal.. especially for their collective cost. At least one of them needs to go, if you can trade them that would be great.. otherwise cut away. Given that the market for receivers is pretty bad this year, I think you could get someone to trade for Hunter Henry. After Gesicki is signed, he may be the next best option for someone. This would be 10M off the cap, which would go a long way towards getting a RT/DL/Extending your own players. Jonnu is a good transition player, especially if Bill O'Brien is back. Let him be the starter at the beginning of the season then transition a rookie into his spot. After this season you can cut him on the last year of his deal and save something like 12M. 

I want to see how these guys do at the Senior Bowl / Combine.. I think TE is a position that really needs guys to be elite athletes for the position to be special. 

Injured this past year, probably an early day 3 project. Went against bad competition so I think he could be there in the 4th-5th round.. he seems like a worthy risk to take. 

 

I've loved watching this guy all season. Probably goes 2nd round. Not a blocker and not an elite athlete which is what holds him back, but I think he will be a very reliable TE for a long time. 

 

Musgrave may be one of the best athletes at the position in this draft. Probably a 2nd or 3rd round pick at this point. He could blow up with a great combine but I think we see a run of 2-3 TE's go in the 50-70 range. 

 

annnnnd my wild card if Bill O'Brien becomes the OC... Cameron Latu .. I mention him for multiple reasons: 

- Bill O'Brien has spent time with him already, IF he likes him, he can get him to transition into the offense quickly

- He is smaller than most of the above guys (244) but he seems to care about blocking more than most .. for a team that cares about running the ball as much as the Patriots, they are going to care about this. It's also a way he can take snaps away from Smith right away

- He hasn't been a lifelong TE, so maybe he has a bit more room to grow than most.

 

- The best ability is AVAILABILITY.. this is a deep TE draft.. and he regressed a bit this past season. I think he could be available late. He's 100% worth it as a developmental guy in the 4th-5th round imo 

 

I think Smith and Latu would be decent together next year. Smith with O'Brien would be a bit better because he would at least try to use him for more YAC .. at least bring him back to how he played with the Titans. Then Latu would be a better blocking option day 1.. he also was a great red zone target 2 years ago, which would be a welcome addition to this team given how bad they are in the red zone. Things work out and by year 2 Latu could be a starter, or worse case you've at least got a decent TE2 

Edited December 30, 2022 by Crimmage

[Crimmage]

[Crimmage]

 

Another potential Mack Wilson replacement. Speedy guy who can play ILB, but would probably have issues against the run / really good OL. Which is fine for the Pats given that they have Bentley 

[m haynes]

Tyree Wilson

I have watched this player several times and I just didn't see it. Didn't notice his impact. Boy was I wrong.

This kid is Deatrich Wise on steroids!!!!  Who's much more athletic. Take a look at (small stuff)  this and watch what he does for the total defense.

He doesn't jump out as a flashy player but his impact is stunning.

He 6'6 275lbs he could play any where on the line. Barmore will have his partner to dominate.  He's now one of my favorites in the 1st RD.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sseIgndecGg

 

Edited December 31, 2022 by m haynes

[Crimmage]

26 minutes ago, m haynes said:

Tyree Wilson

I have watched this player several times and I just didn't see it. Didn't notice his impact. Boy was I wrong.

This kid is Deatrich Wise on steroids!!!!  Who's much more athletic. Take a look at (small stuff)  this and watch what he does for the total defense.

He doesn't jump out as a flashy player but his impact is stunning.

He 6'6 275lbs he could play any where on the line. Barmore will have his partner to dominate.  He's now one of my favorites in the 1st RD.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sseIgndecGg

 

He's huge and incredibly powerful. If he were there 15-18 I could see BB falling in love with him. I fully expect him to be gone by the time the Patriots pick though

 

Speaking of big and powerful, Quentin Johnson is future N'Keal Harry.. I don't see him being the 1st WR taken. I want nothing to do with that guy. He isn't going to get separation at the next level. 

 

I also found my comparison for Jaylin Hyatt .... Mecole Hardman .. no thank you. You can talk me into Zay Flowers late 2nd/3rd, but i'm a no go on Hyatt until day 3. 

[m haynes]

57 minutes ago, Crimmage said:

Jaylin Hyatt .... Mecole Hardman

I don't see that at all.

For one Hardman is a (relies on gifts) knuckle head. Hasn't done anything to improve.  He's the product of KC offense. He's not a #1.  And the fear factor is nonexistent compared to Hyatt and that going back to MH college days.  JH has great hands natural ball catcher.

I'm still shaking my head with this one. 

Added   I use to have a problems with  guys coming out with limited skills ... Rt tree, college offenses.  No more Metcalf (and others)changed my mind completely. He more like Hyatt. Scared the living crap out of defenses. He has two (routes) moves  called,  Oh ship and damn!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Edited January 1, 2023 by m haynes

[Crimmage]

- Both are going to test incredibly well 

- Both don't run a wide variety of routes

- Both play the deep threat / burners role on an offense 

- Both are in offenses which scheme them to get free releases because they don't handle press/contact well 

- I remember reading that Hyatt had the most free releases in all of college football thanks to the way their offense works. They spread the field so much horizontally to achieve this. 

 

I know a lot of people love him and I'm in the minority on this one.. but he feels like a college star player.. not an NFL star player. He's going to have a role and could even make a pro bowl or two if he's in the right system. But, most importantly.. I think his success will be be extremely team dependent. If Kadarius Toney wasn't already traded to the Chiefs I would have said he would be perfect for them because they would know exactly how to use him. He is a bust on the Patriots unfortunately.. they just are too much of an old school offense to use him. I think Tyquan Thornton is a taller, better route running version of Hyatt so I am incredibly confused by mock drafts picking him for the Patriots, Josh Downs / Zay Flowers / Charlie Jones / Ronnie Bell /etc. are all better options. The Patriots depend on the slot position too much for him to work here, they need someone with a large route tree who can create separation in small spaces. Troy Brown / Wes Welker / Danny Amendola / Julien Edelman / Jakobi Meyers.. I just don't see how Hyatt fits on this team.

 

A team I would like to see him get drafted to is the Bengals. 

- Chase will dominate attention, which will help him avoid double teams

- Burrow is a top QB with a good arm for the deep ball, not elite but well above average for him to focus on deep balls

- They aren't a team which historically spends money.. Higgins/Boyd's contracts expire next season.. so they need to draft a receiver this year ... put Hyatt in the slot on that team and send him deep to either create space make a big play

- While they don't use as much motion as a team like Miami, I think they would be creative enough with him to get him in space to make plays 

 

The other two teams which I think he would do very well on are the Rams and 49ers. Brandon Aiyuk will be on the last year of his deal so the 49ers could want his replacement. Tutu Atwell has been ok for the Rams too but I think Hyatt could be a bigger version of him in that offense if they want to move on from Atwell. 

[m haynes]

2 hours ago, Crimmage said:

they don't handle press/contact well 

IMO that's scout speak that, I use to take into acct when I looked at WR. Dotson comes to mind. It funny Waddle and Hill are tiny and they have no problems burning people with their speed, getting off press.  Press has zero effect when i look at WR now.

2 hours ago, Crimmage said:

I remember reading that Hyatt had the most free releases in all of college football thanks to the way their offense works. They spread the field so much horizontally to achieve this. 

If that's true I will hire him to turn Thornton and Hyatt loose!!!! 

Pats  WRs  have suck for the most part. TB made them look so much better. Now without out him our pass offense is nonexistent. I think we should try (screaming for) speed because the guys that can get off press can't get open to save their lives. 

Also IMO their is not a CB in the NFL that  can keep a speedster press for the whole game and the ( lets say) 5 times the WR beats him its 35 points!!! So press all day.  Also press for a speedster needs cover over the top, that releases our run game.

Your so concern with press while I could care less.

2 hours ago, Crimmage said:

He is a bust on the Patriots unfortunately..

You could say this for Jerry Rice.   Matter fact I will agree with to a point don't bother to draft a WR because its a waste of a pick.  Pats have a new offense no WR or TE.  They should put out 6 RBs!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!   No I'm not drinking !!!🤣

2 hours ago, Crimmage said:

Tyquan Thornton is a taller, better route running

Sorry, He has no clue. He doesn't even know how to use his speed. He takes way to many steps to cut. It almost looks like he is stopping to think, it that bad. Take a look at Hyatt again, he breaks ankles, explodes out of his breaks.  Bama game he killed those top DBs. Also I would assumed, they pressed him, jump him, punched him nothing worked, he's what 16.4 yards per catch.  That tells me press or no press he's a nightmare.

2 hours ago, Crimmage said:

Troy Brown / Wes Welker / Danny Amendola / Julien Edelman / Jakobi Meyers..

That's old thinking.  I don't what that at all.   That's works when you have TB. That offense is dead and gone, it old, the nfl is the KC, Dolphins explosion not the machine ran by Brady.  What your looking for is just not going to happen, that history. We don't even pass to the TEs or use the middle other than 5/ 10 yard what 4 passes a game. its over.

---------------------

The rest of your comments it what I want for the Pats. i just praying Groh gets more draft power after this mess and goes for more speed. 

I forgot some reports I have seen,  compare Hyatt to Jamerson Williams.  If the Pats could get 50 % of William it would be like winning the SB compared to the current crap, both in players and scheme.

 

Your looking at this with BB in charge.

I'm looking at it with Kraft laying down the law and forcing a change. Better OC no more buddies and Groh with more influence.  If no change BB still runs the show, Hyatt a pipe dream.  IMO its another wasted year in 2023.

I have zero faith in BB turning our offense around.

Tom Brady not walking through the door!!!! 

 

 

Edited January 1, 2023 by m haynes

[Crimmage]

20 hours ago, m haynes said:

Your looking at this with BB in charge.

I'm looking at it with Kraft laying down the law and forcing a change. Better OC no more buddies and Groh with more influence. 

I'll give you that .. Matt "Al Davis" Groh will draft Hyatt if he has full control of the draft lol 

[m haynes]

13 hours ago, Crimmage said:

I'll give you that .. Matt "Al Davis" Groh will draft Hyatt if he has full control of the draft lol 

Ya and if BB in charge he's drafting  Quentin Johnston or Andre Carter II !!!!🤣🤣🤣