GDT Week 14: Broncos vs Chiefs

[germ-x]

Just to put some of my thoughts out there and clarify some stuff.

1. Wilson was frustrated with Seattle because he’s always been viewed as the interchangeable piece.  Seattle missed the playoffs 3x during Wilson’s time there and all 3x it’s when they were outside the top 10 in rushing.  He also felt he wasn’t treated like some of the other elite QBs because Carroll and the FO didn’t include him in decision making.     Wilson wanted to go somewhere where the offense revolved around him and he felt his opinions were considered by the coaches and FO.

Denver hires Hackett who is a QB coach, is highly respected by Aaron Rodgers, and comes from an offense that revolves around the QB.  Denver is now a destination Wilson would love to go to. 

I have little doubt that when traded for and signed to a long term contract it was under the intentions that the offense would revolve around him and he would have a voice amongst staff and FO.

2.  The system Denver is running is a version of the west coast offense.  Both Hackett and Kubiak’s backgrounds are in that system.  In Seattle,  Bevell and Schottenheimer used a similar philosophy with a bigger emphasis on the running game, but I’ve addressed some of that in point #1.

3.  What to do with Hackett and the coaching staff is not as simple as it might seem.  I 100% would understand firing Hackett just on some of the game management blunders, not preparing starters in the preseason which both cost Denver at least 2 games.  That’s just from a HC perspective.

In terms of what is best to get this offense right?  I’m not sure firing and hiring a new group is as beneficial as it seems.  For starters it doesn’t appear that Wilson even half way through the year has a grasp of the offense with the report from Tyler Polumbus that he was confusing players by mixing it audible calls from Seattle.  If that’s true bringing in a new staff and system that must be learned might not make a lot of sense.

I didn’t feel this was early in the season, but I think it might be a better move to keep Hackett.  Chalk it up to growing pains and injuries.  Go through an entire offseason with clearly defined roles for staff.  For example, Hackett HC only and Kubiak as OC instead of that move happening half way through the season. Put an emphasis on getting players healthy and improving the OL and running game.  This also makes sure that you don’t lose a good young defensive mind in Evero unless he’s hired for an HC job.  

Anyway, that’s kind of where I am at right now.

[AKRNA]

3 hours ago, germ-x said:

I mean I’m sure there is some of that weaved in and I am by no means advocating for keeping Hackett or that he is a good coach.

However, when I see a team that’s averaging 15 points a game in the NFL over 12 games my first thought isn’t about coaching it’s that they must have a terrible QB or the starting QB is hurt and they’ve been playing a backup.  

I haven’t seen this mentioned yet, but what if Wilson is just declining?  He just turned 34 and the trend of guys playing at their best until they’re 40 isn’t going to happen for everyone.  

That's kinda funny. My first thoughts go to OL and coaching.

[big_palooka]

5 hours ago, jolly red giant said:

The problem here lies with Hackett and Paton - not with Wilson. I made this point on the Paton thread - what the hell were they doing trading for Wilson without ensuring that the HC could actually maximise Wilson's skillset and minimise his deficiencies. Furthermore, even if they were willing to allow Wilson have a major input in the offence (and I don't think he has because he doesn't appear to have the brains for it) - it was clear after a couple of games that what they were doing wasn't working - nearly 3 months later there has been no effort to fix it - and that is on Hackett. There is no reason why Hackett (and Paton) couldn't sit Wilson down - say 'this is not working' - and we are going to have to go back to basics to stop your reputation and ours from being destroyed. But Hackett hasn't made any attempt to do this because he doesn't know what he is doing.

Again, I think you are missing what @germ-x said. This system is what Wilson wanted. He wanted to be a pocket passer. He wanted to "cook". Pete humored the idea for a stretch and he played terribly with a string of turnovers. Pete pulled the plug on "let Russ cook" and went back to establishing the run and working off play action, getting Wilson in space.

Wilson wanted out. He wanted to "cook". It's said he has input in the offense. The problem lies in Wilson. To further the point, Hackett is not on the field missing reads and refusing to throw over the middle. That's the QB.

[broncos67]

4 hours ago, germ-x said:

Yeah I can see that.  Injuries impact everyone, including coaches.  

I guess my perspective is you trade multiple 1s and pay a guy $250M for him to win games when you lose offensive lineman or WRs.  

I agree with you, but in fairness there's inevitably a number of injuries where any QB is going to be less effective. We're down to 3rd string lineman and a bunch of practice squad WRs and RBs signed off other teams' practice squads. The WR talent on this team is just bad. That was a conscious choice by Paton/Hackett not to restock the coffers with FA talent when Patrick got hurt.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not absolving Russ of blame. He shoulders a fairly significant chunk of blame, but I don't think you can fault him when Hinton, Brandon Johnson, Jalen Virgil etc...are the starting WRs.

[germ-x]

45 minutes ago, AKRNA said:

That's kinda funny. My first thoughts go to OL and coaching.

Not saying it couldn’t be the cause or part of it, but good QBs score points.  I guess I think of it as, do you think Mahomes, Allen, etc. would score 2 TDs a game?

[jolly red giant]

1 hour ago, germ-x said:

I didn’t feel this was early in the season, but I think it might be a better move to keep Hackett.  Chalk it up to growing pains and injuries.  Go through an entire offseason with clearly defined roles for staff.  For example, Hackett HC only and Kubiak as OC instead of that move happening half way through the season. Put an emphasis on getting players healthy and improving the OL and running game.  This also makes sure that you don’t lose a good young defensive mind in Evero unless he’s hired for an HC job.  

The problem with this approach is that keeping Hackett and another terrible year next season - and you still do not know what you have with Wilson. It would be a wasted year. Hackett has shown zero signs that he gets what it takes to be a HC (or install an offence that can function).

Better to get a new approach and see if Wilson can perform as a top ten QB - if he can't then we need to cut bait, dump him and eat the dead cap. Don't waste another year waiting to find that out.

[jolly red giant]

26 minutes ago, big_palooka said:

Again, I think you are missing what @germ-x said. This system is what Wilson wanted. He wanted to be a pocket passer. He wanted to "cook". Pete humored the idea for a stretch and he played terribly with a string of turnovers. Pete pulled the plug on "let Russ cook" and went back to establishing the run and working off play action, getting Wilson in space.

Wilson wanted out. He wanted to "cook". It's said he has input in the offense. The problem lies in Wilson. To further the point, Hackett is not on the field missing reads and refusing to throw over the middle. That's the QB.

The problem is that the offence is a mixed up hybrid - some of what Wilson wants plugged into what appears to be a very complicated scheme that Hackett wants to run. The end result is that the offence is a mess, it lacks identity and it doesn't function. This is coupled with the horrible play-calling by Hackett. By all accounts Hackett and Wilson have been at loggerheads over the offence since pre-season - and that is on the HC to figure out how to sort it. And all of this has been compunded by the injuries (something else that Paton needs to fix).

Now - it is clear that Wilson is not a cerebrial QB like Manning - but it would have been delusional to ever think that he was. He does have a definite skillset that can be utilised. The responsibility is on the HC to make sure that happens. This stuff about 'Russ cooking' is hype and bears no relation to the reality on the ground. Should Wilson have a say in what decisions are made - I absolutely think that you get the QB's views on stuff that can impact him on the field. That doesn't mean that Wilson should be making concrete decisions - that is the job Paton gets paid for. The Broncos are tied to Wilson because of the investment of picks and cap space - they are not tied to Hackett - and he has to go. Find someone who will adopt a different approach to the happy buddy nonsense from Hackett and see if they can sort the problem. If not - the next head to roll has to be Wilson.

[The Helicopter]

2 hours ago, AKRNA said:

Good post. As far as OC, I'm curious, just wondering when auditions start. Someone else mentioned this but I hope Russ has to sit for a week or two. I'd like to see what Kubiak can do with Rypien running the offense. This is about Kubiak and what kind of offense he'll provide with a QB that can actually execute it. Right now we don't know.

I'd love to shut Wilson down for the year and let Rypien finish this season. I feel like we know exactly what we have with Russ. He's a terrible pocket QB. I feel like we don't know exactly what we have with Hackett, but at least he's willing to self-reflect and change. No, he's not even in the same ballpark as Kyle S., but that ship has sailed. I'm more worried about RW not being able to adjust his game and I don't see how a different coach will get him moving.

[germ-x]

1 hour ago, broncos67 said:

I agree with you, but in fairness there's inevitably a number of injuries where any QB is going to be less effective. We're down to 3rd string lineman and a bunch of practice squad WRs and RBs signed off other teams' practice squads. The WR talent on this team is just bad. That was a conscious choice by Paton/Hackett not to restock the coffers with FA talent when Patrick got hurt.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not absolving Russ of blame. He shoulders a fairly significant chunk of blame, but I don't think you can fault him when Hinton, Brandon Johnson, Jalen Virgil etc...are the starting WRs.

Definitely.  I also think though there’s only so much you can do as a GM and coach as well. 

Part of why I think it may be the best option to return the staff.  

[broncos67]

17 hours ago, germ-x said:

Definitely.  I also think though there’s only so much you can do as a GM and coach as well. 

Part of why I think it may be the best option to return the staff.  

If Paton and Co make the decision to retain Hackett, a few things have to change. Outten has to be fired. He offers nothing, does nothing. We need more experience in the OC position and on offense in general. An experienced OL coach needs to be brought in. Bring back Munchak or whomever, but needs to be someone with somewhat of a pedigree.

Dwayne Stukes needs to be fired as ST coach. Once again, bring in someone with experience not an up and comer. We've been absolute bottom of the barrel garbage for as long as I can remember at ST. 

Finally, if you bring Hackett back, there absolutely needs to be more communication, transparency and accountability with the fan base because people are dangerously apathetic about the team and there's a deep dislike for Hackett. No amount of new jerseys or scoreboard upgrades is going to change that. He should have an EXTREMELY short leash if he's brought back. Like, if this team doesn't have a winning record by Week 6, he's gone. Otherwise, it's just rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic.

[AnAngryAmerican]

I‘m just not sure if the Walmarts can stomach the PR backlash they’ll get by keeping Hackett, even with significant changes. It’s going to be hard enough keeping George given the way the radio and social media have turned on him, foolishly, yes, as we’ve discussed, but it’s there and loud nonetheless. 

If the team finishes the season strongly, and some major changes are made to the ST, offense and strength and conditioning staffs, I could possibly get on board with giving Hackett another season but I really doubt the Walmarts can or will, if for nothing other than PR. 

[broncos67]

1 hour ago, AnAngryAmerican said:

I‘m just not sure if the Walmarts can stomach the PR backlash they’ll get by keeping Hackett, even with significant changes. It’s going to be hard enough keeping George given the way the radio and social media have turned on him, foolishly, yes, as we’ve discussed, but it’s there and loud nonetheless. 

If the team finishes the season strongly, and some major changes are made to the ST, offense and strength and conditioning staffs, I could possibly get on board with giving Hackett another season but I really doubt the Walmarts can or will, if for nothing other than PR. 

Forgot to add Loren Landow to my list of people that need to be fired. Good call.

[BroncoBruin]

Mario Vetanze does work on a lot of the players and he suggested it’s a lack of investment (both time and resources) in the athletic training/strength and conditioning programs that is the root of the problem, not Landow. Said that Landow has not had the freedom to fully implement his program and constantly butted heads with Fangio (who didn’t?) about this. They do everything on the cheap, use a stable of interns instead of hiring professionals etc

 

[AnAngryAmerican]

2 hours ago, BroncoBruin said:

Mario Vetanze does work on a lot of the players and he suggested it’s a lack of investment (both time and resources) in the athletic training/strength and conditioning programs that is the root of the problem, not Landow. Said that Landow has not had the freedom to fully implement his program and constantly butted heads with Fangio (who didn’t?) about this. They do everything on the cheap, use a stable of interns instead of hiring professionals etc

 

I could understand being cheap in the final year of the Ellis’ regime and butting heads with Vic, who is a total tool.

But why hasn’t that changed since the Walmarts took over? Are they the ones being cheap? They sure as hell boasted to everyone who would listen this week about $100m for a new Jumbotron and upgrades for the rich people parts of Mile High. Sure as hell don’t want fans to think they’re cheap.

[BroncoBruin]

8 minutes ago, AnAngryAmerican said:

I could understand being cheap in the final year of the Ellis’ regime and butting heads with Vic, who is a total tool.

But why hasn’t that changed since the Walmarts took over? Are they the ones being cheap? They sure as hell boasted to everyone who would listen this week about $100m for a new Jumbotron and upgrades for the rich people parts of Mile High. Sure as hell don’t want fans to think they’re cheap.

My read is more that it’s just tough to overhaul an entire program right before the season. And they couldn’t see how clearly broken the processes were until the injuries started piling up.