GDT Week 14: Broncos vs Chiefs

[Broncofan]

8 minutes ago, Zukhyubern said:

I don’t think I’ve seen a single person, Broncos fan or otherwise, defend Hackett. 

Plenty of fans keep saying Wilson is the bigger problem, though.   To be clear - Wilson's not blameless, but it's literally impossible to figure out how much isn't fixable, until Hackett's gone.   And each time Hackett speaks, the more it becomes clear how he has literally no depth, complexity or nuance to his OC & scheme.    Just when you think he can't show he's outmatched any more than he's been - he opens his mouth and it only gets worse for him.

Yes, Sutton & Jeudy get open, but I think it's far more about their talent.   And yes, there's still plenty of blame on Wilson, esp with some key moments/games (IND TNF, for example).    But with a better scheme/play-calling fit and a better OL, well, we may not get the top 6 QB we thought Wilson could be, but I remain hopeful we'll get far more than ppl dread seeing the O this year.   Still a bad deal for us, but the price/toll may not be nearly as bad as it's looked at times this year...once Hackett's gone.    This week's game gives me more hope for 2023 with the O....unlike the last 2-3 games before.

Edited December 13, 2022 by Broncofan

[germ-x]

21 hours ago, Broncofan said:

Plenty of fans keep saying Wilson is the bigger problem, though.   To be clear - Wilson's not blameless, but it's literally impossible to figure out how much isn't fixable, until Hackett's gone.   And each time Hackett speaks, the more it becomes clear how he has literally no depth, complexity or nuance to his OC & scheme.    Just when you think he can't show he's outmatched any more than he's been - he opens his mouth and it only gets worse for him.

Yes, Sutton & Jeudy get open, but I think it's far more about their talent.   And yes, there's still plenty of blame on Wilson, esp with some key moments/games (IND TNF, for example).    But with a better scheme/play-calling fit and a better OL, well, we may not get the top 6 QB we thought Wilson could be, but I remain hopeful we'll get far more than ppl dread seeing the O this year.   Still a bad deal for us, but the price/toll may not be nearly as bad as it's looked at times this year...once Hackett's gone.    This week's game gives me more hope for 2023 with the O....unlike the last 2-3 games before.

100% Wilson is the biggest problem.  Not that Hackett deserves to stay, but this is a QB driven league and not a single fan with any sense would say Mahomes, Brady, Rodgers, Brees, Manning, Allen, any elite QB would perform the same as Wilson in any offense.  Wilson is the 2nd highest paid QB in history.  I don’t care what the offense is or the talent, that caliber of player wins at the QB position.   You put any of them on this team at 32 years old and Denver is a playoff team regardless of the injuries.  That’s a 100% fact.

Hackett sucks, but Wilson is worse.  He doesn’t have any idea of where the ball should go pre snap or where it should go post snap.  The best plays he made vs KC were with his legs which we need to see more of, but you run the risk of what happened (concussion protocol) and getting injured. 

Wilson is the future.  No way you can get out of that contract, but I’d love to see Rypien get a couple games as the starter and taking all the practice reps.  I think he understands the offense and can operate within it, which gives us a far better picture of what Hackett and Kubiak are doing offensively. 

[germ-x]

Since 2015 this fan base has said “It’s the QB” “If we had a QB” “need to get a QB”

They go supposedly get one and now it’s the coach. The problem hasn’t changed, “ ITS THE QB.”  

[broncos67]

9 hours ago, germ-x said:

Since 2015 this fan base has said “It’s the QB” “If we had a QB” “need to get a QB”

They go supposedly get one and now it’s the coach. The problem hasn’t changed, “ ITS THE QB.”  

I think it can be both. Russ has been well, well below expectation. Hackett has been downright terrible. Injuries have decimated the offense. There's a lot of things that went wrong this year. 

[jolly red giant]

it is nonsense to suggest that Wilson is the biggest problem on the team - the biggest problem is Hackett.

Wilson's last four seasons in Seattle he had a rating higher than 100 - now it is 85. Wilson is not a Manning or a Brady who effectively operated as an OC on the field. Pete Carroll knew Wilson's strengths and weaknesses and build the offsence around this knowledge - Hackett is trying to jam a square peg into a round hole using an offensive scheme that does not have any identity.

I keep going back to what Sean Payton said more than a month ago about what he would do to fix the Broncos offence and he said that he would watch film on every TD pass that Wilson threw in his career and every completed pass he made in the redzone and use those plays as the basis for the offence. Hackett is incapable of figuring this out - and until we get a HC (and an OC) who is at least competent we will not know what Wilson is and is not capable of doing.

The worst thing for the team would be keeping Hackett next year - it will delay any resolution to the problem, it will waste another year of an aging QB - and it would demonstrate to mee that the Walmarts do not care about doing anything other than raking in the profits from the franchise.

[germ-x]

36 minutes ago, jolly red giant said:

it is nonsense to suggest that Wilson is the biggest problem on the team - the biggest problem is Hackett.

Wilson's last four seasons in Seattle he had a rating higher than 100 - now it is 85. Wilson is not a Manning or a Brady who effectively operated as an OC on the field. Pete Carroll knew Wilson's strengths and weaknesses and build the offsence around this knowledge - Hackett is trying to jam a square peg into a round hole using an offensive scheme that does not have any identity.

I keep going back to what Sean Payton said more than a month ago about what he would do to fix the Broncos offence and he said that he would watch film on every TD pass that Wilson threw in his career and every completed pass he made in the redzone and use those plays as the basis for the offence. Hackett is incapable of figuring this out - and until we get a HC (and an OC) who is at least competent we will not know what Wilson is and is not capable of doing.

The worst thing for the team would be keeping Hackett next year - it will delay any resolution to the problem, it will waste another year of an aging QB - and it would demonstrate to mee that the Walmarts do not care about doing anything other than raking in the profits from the franchise.

This is exactly why Wilson is the biggest problem.  He’s a system QB. You’re also leaving out the fact that the biggest reason Wilson wanted out of Seattle is because they treated him like a system QB.  

Hackett is doing exactly what Russell Wilson wanted when traded to Denver.  He wanted to get paid ($250M) and get treated like Brady, Mahomes, Manning, Rodgers, etc. That’s exactly what Denver and Hackett have tried to do for him.  I would be shocked if Wilson isn’t a HUGE part of deciding on the system and the gameplan each week again it was a lack of this that upset him in Seattle.

Further if anyone has followed anything out of Seattle over the years and what Wilson was like within that organization he doesn’t seem like the type that is easily going to concede he isn’t that type of player after banging the table for years saying that he is.

[germ-x]

1 hour ago, broncos67 said:

I think it can be both. Russ has been well, well below expectation. Hackett has been downright terrible. Injuries have decimated the offense. There's a lot of things that went wrong this year. 

For sure.  As a frustrated fan it’s easy to forget the amount of injures this team has on the offensive side.  Definitely plays a role in the offensive struggles.  

[germ-x]

Now to Hackett.  From the start his funny guy personality gave me pause in how well he could lead a team.  I also think the decision to not play starters in the preseason was a huge mistake.  I think the joke around off-season and lack of chemistry from starters to go along with poor game management from Hackett directly cost us games early in the year.

Hackett went hired someone to help him manage the game.

Then when the offense couldn’t score it was that Hackett was a bad play caller and couldn’t be HC+OC on gamedays.  So he turned over play call duties to Kubiak.  Not to go off on another Wilson rant, but even Kubiak doesn’t trust him within the offense.  Look at all the screens this team runs and play calls in the red zone.  Kubiak had more faith in Rypien last week than he did with Wilson.

Back on track, I’ll give that to Hackett, he’s been able to put ego aside and make changes on his role if he felt it could better the team.  

Denver has also played their butts off this year, even in losses this team has been in basically every single game.

Andy Reid in his press conference pointed that out and said there’s no give up in that team. So in terms of positives for Hackett he still doesn’t appear to have lost the team.  

[jolly red giant]

33 minutes ago, germ-x said:

This is exactly why Wilson is the biggest problem.  He’s a system QB. You’re also leaving out the fact that the biggest reason Wilson wanted out of Seattle is because they treated him like a system QB.  

Hackett is doing exactly what Russell Wilson wanted when traded to Denver.  He wanted to get paid ($250M) and get treated like Brady, Mahomes, Manning, Rodgers, etc. That’s exactly what Denver and Hackett have tried to do for him.  I would be shocked if Wilson isn’t a HUGE part of deciding on the system and the gameplan each week again it was a lack of this that upset him in Seattle.

Further if anyone has followed anything out of Seattle over the years and what Wilson was like within that organization he doesn’t seem like the type that is easily going to concede he isn’t that type of player after banging the table for years saying that he is.

The problem here lies with Hackett and Paton - not with Wilson. I made this point on the Paton thread - what the hell were they doing trading for Wilson without ensuring that the HC could actually maximise Wilson's skillset and minimise his deficiencies. Furthermore, even if they were willing to allow Wilson have a major input in the offence (and I don't think he has because he doesn't appear to have the brains for it) - it was clear after a couple of games that what they were doing wasn't working - nearly 3 months later there has been no effort to fix it - and that is on Hackett. There is no reason why Hackett (and Paton) couldn't sit Wilson down - say 'this is not working' - and we are going to have to go back to basics to stop your reputation and ours from being destroyed. But Hackett hasn't made any attempt to do this because he doesn't know what he is doing.

[broncos67]

11 minutes ago, germ-x said:

Now to Hackett.  From the start his funny guy personality gave me pause in how well he could lead a team.  I also think the decision to not play starters in the preseason was a huge mistake.  I think the joke around off-season and lack of chemistry from starters to go along with poor game management from Hackett directly cost us games early in the year.

Hackett went hired someone to help him manage the game.

Then when the offense couldn’t score it was that Hackett was a bad play caller and couldn’t be HC+OC on gamedays.  So he turned over play call duties to Kubiak.  Not to go off on another Wilson rant, but even Kubiak doesn’t trust him within the offense.  Look at all the screens this team runs and play calls in the red zone.  Kubiak had more faith in Rypien last week than he did with Wilson.

Back on track, I’ll give that to Hackett, he’s been able to put ego aside and make changes on his role if he felt it could better the team.  

Denver has also played their butts off this year, even in losses this team has been in basically every single game.

Andy Reid in his press conference pointed that out and said there’s no give up in that team. So in terms of positives for Hackett he still doesn’t appear to have lost the team.  

How much of the playcalling is a result of the available talent and the OL injuries though? There's enough to criticize Russ for, but the one thing I will say is that he has pressure in his face almost instantly most of the time. Sometimes he holds the ball for too long and creates his own issues, but the OL has been a sieve and that's on Hackett and 100% impacts the playcalling. 

[jolly red giant]

7 minutes ago, germ-x said:

Now to Hackett.  From the start his funny guy personality gave me pause in how well he could lead a team.  I also think the decision to not play starters in the preseason was a huge mistake.  I think the joke around off-season and lack of chemistry from starters to go along with poor game management from Hackett directly cost us games early in the year.

Hackett went hired someone to help him manage the game.

Then when the offense couldn’t score it was that Hackett was a bad play caller and couldn’t be HC+OC on gamedays.  So he turned over play call duties to Kubiak.  Not to go off on another Wilson rant, but even Kubiak doesn’t trust him within the offense.  Look at all the screens this team runs and play calls in the red zone.  Kubiak had more faith in Rypien last week than he did with Wilson.

Back on track, I’ll give that to Hackett, he’s been able to put ego aside and make changes on his role if he felt it could better the team.  

Denver has also played their butts off this year, even in losses this team has been in basically every single game.

Andy Reid in his press conference pointed that out and said there’s no give up in that team. So in terms of positives for Hackett he still doesn’t appear to have lost the team.  

I disagree with most of this -

1. There has been a marked improvement on the offence since Kubiak took over play calling - and remember, Hackett is still deciding whether to go run or pass - and then Kubiak calls the appropriate play. That is why you end up running four passing plays from 1st and goal on the 2 and you get lucky on fourth down. The reality is that the Broncos could well have won the game if Wilson hadn't been injured - Brett Rypien is a smart guy but a mediocre talent with a weak arm.

2. The changes made had nothing to do with Hackett putting aside his ego - it had everything to do with the fact that he doesn't have the capacity to be a HC or the brain to process in real time and make the correct decisions. The changes were all about saving face and trying to avoid further embarrassment - designed to save what is left of his reputation. 

3. Look at the Broncos offensive output - 16pts - 11 - 23 - 9 - 16 - 9 - 21 - 10 - 16 -10 - 9 - 28       -    The 21 were against the Jags in London - against a very poor team. There has been a consistent decline in offensive output - and it was only since last week against Ravens that it looked like things started to turn a corner with Kubiak calling the plays. That decline should be going in the opposite direction - especially with a touted 'offensive guru' as HC - but it is not and that is down to the incompetence of Hackett.

4. The Broncos have been in games because of the defence - not the offence - and Hackett has already admitted that he has no input into the defence - he wasn't even looking at the defence when they were on the field because he was so inept at trying to figure out what to do on the next offensive series.

5. I am sure that Hackett is a very likeable guy and that the players want to play for him - but likeable is not getting the job done. There is clearly a lack of discipline on the team - the Broncos have had 97 penalties so far this season - costing 826 yards (including 6 penalties against the Chiefs) - and that is not to talk about all the other f*ck-ups in terms of game management. Mr Niceguy is not cutting it - irrespective of whether he still has the locker room or not. There is not a single Broncos player who would be surprised if Hackett is sacked on Black Monday and that is as far as his likeability goes.

6. We are stuck with Wilson - Hackett has proven he does not know how to fix the problem so he has to go - and the first question any HC candidate will have to answer is 'how will you go about fixing the problem?. Until we get a competent HC we will not know if Wilson can play QB at a top ten level - if after next season it demonstrates that it doesn't matter who the HC is then you cut Wilson - eat the $85million in dead cap and rebuild.

[germ-x]

20 minutes ago, broncos67 said:

How much of the playcalling is a result of the available talent and the OL injuries though? There's enough to criticize Russ for, but the one thing I will say is that he has pressure in his face almost instantly most of the time. Sometimes he holds the ball for too long and creates his own issues, but the OL has been a sieve and that's on Hackett and 100% impacts the playcalling. 

Yeah I can see that.  Injuries impact everyone, including coaches.  

I guess my perspective is you trade multiple 1s and pay a guy $250M for him to win games when you lose offensive lineman or WRs.  

[germ-x]

41 minutes ago, jolly red giant said:

I disagree with most of this -

1. There has been a marked improvement on the offence since Kubiak took over play calling - and remember, Hackett is still deciding whether to go run or pass - and then Kubiak calls the appropriate play. That is why you end up running four passing plays from 1st and goal on the 2 and you get lucky on fourth down. The reality is that the Broncos could well have won the game if Wilson hadn't been injured - Brett Rypien is a smart guy but a mediocre talent with a weak arm.

2. The changes made had nothing to do with Hackett putting aside his ego - it had everything to do with the fact that he doesn't have the capacity to be a HC or the brain to process in real time and make the correct decisions. The changes were all about saving face and trying to avoid further embarrassment - designed to save what is left of his reputation. 

3. Look at the Broncos offensive output - 16pts - 11 - 23 - 9 - 16 - 9 - 21 - 10 - 16 -10 - 9 - 28       -    The 21 were against the Jags in London - against a very poor team. There has been a consistent decline in offensive output - and it was only since last week against Ravens that it looked like things started to turn a corner with Kubiak calling the plays. That decline should be going in the opposite direction - especially with a touted 'offensive guru' as HC - but it is not and that is down to the incompetence of Hackett.

4. The Broncos have been in games because of the defence - not the offence - and Hackett has already admitted that he has no input into the defence - he wasn't even looking at the defence when they were on the field because he was so inept at trying to figure out what to do on the next offensive series.

5. I am sure that Hackett is a very likeable guy and that the players want to play for him - but likeable is not getting the job done. There is clearly a lack of discipline on the team - the Broncos have had 97 penalties so far this season - costing 826 yards (including 6 penalties against the Chiefs) - and that is not to talk about all the other f*ck-ups in terms of game management. Mr Niceguy is not cutting it - irrespective of whether he still has the locker room or not. There is not a single Broncos player who would be surprised if Hackett is sacked on Black Monday and that is as far as his likeability goes.

6. We are stuck with Wilson - Hackett has proven he does not know how to fix the problem so he has to go - and the first question any HC candidate will have to answer is 'how will you go about fixing the problem?. Until we get a competent HC we will not know if Wilson can play QB at a top ten level - if after next season it demonstrates that it doesn't matter who the HC is then you cut Wilson - eat the $85million in dead cap and rebuild.

I mean I’m sure there is some of that weaved in and I am by no means advocating for keeping Hackett or that he is a good coach.

However, when I see a team that’s averaging 15 points a game in the NFL over 12 games my first thought isn’t about coaching it’s that they must have a terrible QB or the starting QB is hurt and they’ve been playing a backup.  

I haven’t seen this mentioned yet, but what if Wilson is just declining?  He just turned 34 and the trend of guys playing at their best until they’re 40 isn’t going to happen for everyone.  

[jolly red giant]

25 minutes ago, germ-x said:

I haven’t seen this mentioned yet, but what if Wilson is just declining?  He just turned 34 and the trend of guys playing at their best until they’re 40 isn’t going to happen for everyone.  

It is distinctly possible that Wilson is declining - but compared to last season it is like falling off a cliff - and QBs of Wilson's age generally do not fall off a cliff.

Now - the problem we have is that we don't know whether Wilson is in decline - we cannot know because the coaching is abominably bad. We need a competent HC and OC at the very least (getting some other competent offensive coaches and fitness and conditioning staff would help as well). In fact the only coaches I would consider keeping on the offensive side are KUbiak and Azzanni - and simply because they aren't there because of Hackett's nepotism.

Getting a competent HC and OC with an offence that fits Wilson's skillset and then we can see if there is any point in keeping Wilson beyond next season. We will have to eat $85million in dead cap money - but at least it will be gone off the books and the rebuild can start in earnest. 

The key is getting the right HC - and that is wehre Paton has to step up to the plate). I still think that Dan Quinn is probably the most suitable candidate available (given the difficulties in getting the likes of Payton).

[AKRNA]

5 hours ago, jolly red giant said:

it is nonsense to suggest that Wilson is the biggest problem on the team - the biggest problem is Hackett.

Wilson's last four seasons in Seattle he had a rating higher than 100 - now it is 85. Wilson is not a Manning or a Brady who effectively operated as an OC on the field. Pete Carroll knew Wilson's strengths and weaknesses and build the offsence around this knowledge - Hackett is trying to jam a square peg into a round hole using an offensive scheme that does not have any identity.

I keep going back to what Sean Payton said more than a month ago about what he would do to fix the Broncos offence and he said that he would watch film on every TD pass that Wilson threw in his career and every completed pass he made in the redzone and use those plays as the basis for the offence. Hackett is incapable of figuring this out - and until we get a HC (and an OC) who is at least competent we will not know what Wilson is and is not capable of doing.

The worst thing for the team would be keeping Hackett next year - it will delay any resolution to the problem, it will waste another year of an aging QB - and it would demonstrate to mee that the Walmarts do not care about doing anything other than raking in the profits from the franchise.

Good post. As far as OC, I'm curious, just wondering when auditions start. Someone else mentioned this but I hope Russ has to sit for a week or two. I'd like to see what Kubiak can do with Rypien running the offense. This is about Kubiak and what kind of offense he'll provide with a QB that can actually execute it. Right now we don't know.