2023 FA Targets

[Bigbear72]

19 minutes ago, Sugashane said:

I've echoed what @Madmike90 has said when we discussed this a while back, and I respect that you and I have differing opinions on him. But I don't think you're looking at his background in KC fully. They didn't "just" get Mahomes, they moved up to snag him because they identified him as a potential HOF talent. They moved and got him after already having a 14 wins season. But that season was in large part due to the talent around Smith too. While Poles was in KC they also drafted Chris Jones, Travis Kelce, Hunt, Marcus Peters, Dee Ford, Fisher, Poe, Rodney Hudson, Justin Houston, etc. They have drafted a lot of good to great to elite talents. Even just from his last year with KC Bolton, Humphrey and Trey Smith are looking really good.

Now are those all Poles' picks directly? No, but he has been around the scouts, the franchise developing, seeing how Reid coaches, how Veach, Dorsey, and Pioli have run their organization.

As far as you saying you don't like a single move he has made, I don't believe that. You would have kept Eddie Goldman? Him letting Hicks walk? You would have kept Bilal Nichols? Given ARob the 3 year $45 mil deal he took for the Rams? Re-signed Andy Dalton rather than let him walk? I'd like you to be more specific about what he did wrong and what he should have done, otherwise its just sensationalism to say the bolded. And what quality is he lacking in to be a GM? He was a scouting coordinator, Director of College Scouting, Ast Director of Player Personnel, Executive Director of Player Personnel, and then took the job here. Clearly from above he has a solid track record for helping build KC beyond just Mahomes.

It was a tank year with a long-term approach. It netted the #1 overall pick and the most cap space in the league by a significant margin. First step was a success, now he has to build the team up. If the Bears aren't an 11 win team in 2023 that doesn't mean its a failure either.

All very solid points. We live in such a world of instant gratification that most of those points have gone unnoticed by a lot of people. This thing will take time. People also need to get it out of their head that we will make a playoff run next year. Is it possible, sure. But it is far more likely that we make a lesser jump and be in position to make noise in 2024.

[Sugashane]

Just now, Bigbear72 said:

All very solid points. We live in such a world of instant gratification that most of those points have gone unnoticed by a lot of people. This thing will take time. People also need to get it out of their head that we will make a playoff run next year. Is it possible, sure. But it is far more likely that we make a lesser jump and be in position to make noise in 2024.

I've been waiting nearly 30 years to see the Bears be the best team in the NFC North for more than the occasional solid season, now with Fields and basically a near clean slate there is a chance for that. I can wait another year or two, just show me progress. If Fields isn't any better this year or next then move on from him.

If he fails then I would have to see significant progress from the team to now want Warren to go after his own guys and let them pick their QB. I think Poles has done great so far with what his goals obviously were, but building the team is harder than ripping the last regime's failed structure apart.

[StLunatic88]

6 hours ago, brownie man said:

But he’ll trade a 2nd rounder for Claypool? 

I mean how are those two things the same?

Did we give up too much for Claypool, maybe, but hes a proven player vs a draft pick who we cant just bank on (no team can). I would have rather sent the Ravens pick, but we were fending off the Packers for him.

And the Kirk deal was panned by EVERYONE, it legitimately upturned the WR market and GMs had to fend it off when paying Actual #1 WRs. 

6 hours ago, brownie man said:

he almost gave Ogunjobi a huge deal last offseason and now he wants to be cheap? 

Once again, not wanting to give out an outlier contract is not the same as being cheap. As others have pointed out, you seem to be passing off your feeling about Poles as some sort of fact?

6 hours ago, brownie man said:

im really concerned for y’all team man. I don’t think Poles had the right plan for what you guys need. You all honestly should not have been this bad this season. He’s not showing he knows how to construct an offense. 

We were TRYING to be bad. Its obvious the point of what he was trying to do

[brownie man]

3 hours ago, Sugashane said:

As far as you saying you don't like a single move he has made, I don't believe that. You would have kept Eddie Goldman? Him letting Hicks walk? You would have kept Bilal Nichols? Given ARob the 3 year $45 mil deal he took for the Rams? Re-signed Andy Dalton rather than let him walk?

When I say moves I meant draft picks, trades, and FA acquisitions. 
 

He totally ignored the offense. I think Brisker and Gordon are nice players 

But that should’ve been Pickens or Pierce and Oline help. 

your lack of offensive talent stunted the offense. Then you draft Velus Jones a 25 year old rookie instead. Like what?

Im telling y’all based on what I’ve seen and what he says I don’t have confidence in him for you guys. Trade a second rounder for Claypool when you could’ve drafted Pickens in the second round a year before when he was right there. 
 

and if you are gonna trade a second rounder it had to be that Ravens pick. Seems like he’s not a great negotiator either. I’m not hating or trying to be a troll I just want to see Fields succeed. I think Poles is going to be like a Mike Lombardi. 
 

I hope y’all new President really is through on vetting people throughout the organization. Look into Poles plan man I’m telling you. Maybe he got you out of bad contracts, but that’s not that hard. Anybody can do that. Drafting and making the right FA decisions is much tougher and shows if he actually knows what he’s doing. 
 

Red flags to me 

🚩That Ogunjobi contract that didn’t happen

🚩Neglecting the offense last draft passing on Pickens/Pierce and o line early and drafting DBs instead

🚩Drafting a 25 year old rookie instead who is primarily a special teamer. When he should’ve drafted Pickens and then went corner/safety in the third. Like it wasn’t rocket science. 

🚩Trading a second rounder for Claypool and not negotiating the Baltimore pick. But regardless trading your own second rounder for Claypool regardless of the Baltimore pick was a bad move. It’s like now you wanna make a move when you passed up plenty of opportunities and now you gotta overpay. Bad moves man. If it walks like a duck and to me his moves show he’s in over his head. Don’t keep Nathaniel Hackett too long. 

 

Edited January 13, 2023 by brownie man

[Sugashane]

18 minutes ago, brownie man said:

When I say moves I meant draft picks, trades, and FA acquisitions.

Definitely makes more sense with that. I mean, still got out from Mack, Quinn, and Smith before he was overpaid.

And I want to clarify nothing I argue is personal either, I'm just debating views is all.

18 minutes ago, brownie man said:

He totally ignored the offense. I think Brisker and Gordon are nice players 

But that should’ve been Pickens or Pierce and Oline help.

your lack of offensive talent stunted the offense. Then you draft Velus Jones a 25 year old rookie instead. Like what?

I was pounding the table for both Pickens and Pierce, and drafted Pickens in my real-time draft. So I agree there.

In a tank year I'm not concerned about the offense being bad. I was definitely annoyed about it because I'm impatient to a degree, but once the Mack trade happened it was pretty clear what the plan was.

Wasn't a big fan of Jones but I think Getsy did him a disservice my misusing him too. Either he or Eberflus put him in the doghouse early even when the upside was virtually nonexistent for ESB and Pettis. I mean, don't you want the young guys taking their lumps in a tank year of all years?

18 minutes ago, brownie man said:

Im telling y’all based on what I’ve seen and what he says I don’t have confidence in him for you guys. Trade a second rounder for Claypool when you could’ve drafted Pickens in the second round a year before when he was right there. 
 

and if you are gonna trade a second rounder it had to be that Ravens pick. Seems like he’s not a great negotiator either. I’m not hating or trying to be a troll I just want to see Fields succeed. I think Poles is going to be like a Mike Lombardi.

I part that was due to Pringle being hurt and showing that he wanted to have someone else under contract besides Mooney and Velus for 2023. Getting Claypool isn't the issue to me, him not getting reps was.

18 minutes ago, brownie man said:

I hope y’all new President really is through on vetting people throughout the organization. Look into Poles plan man I’m telling you. Maybe he got you out of bad contracts, but that’s not that hard. Anybody can do that. Drafting and making the right FA decisions is much tougher and shows if he actually knows what he’s doing.

A lot of GMs can't help but get themselves into bad deals. That is the issue. He hasn't made a bad big signing yet. At least let him take real swings before judging.

18 minutes ago, brownie man said:

Red flags to me 

🚩That Ogunjobi contract that didn’t happen

🚩Neglecting the offense last draft passing on Pickens/Pierce and o line early and drafting DBs instead

🚩Drafting a 25 year old rookie instead who is primarily a special teamer. When he should’ve drafted Pickens and then went corner/safety in the third. Like it wasn’t rocket science. 

🚩Trading a second rounder for Claypool and not negotiating the Baltimore pick. But regardless trading your own second rounder for Claypool regardless of the Baltimore pick was a bad move. It’s like now you wanna make a move when you passed up plenty of opportunities and now you gotta overpay. Bad moves man. If it walks like a duck and to me his moves show he’s in over his head. Don’t keep Nathaniel Hackett too long. 

 

Now I can see your issues here, but you said you've been concerned about him since his first press conference. That tells me that you're going to be a bit biased.

You have no issue with Kirk's contract because he helps Fields' development, but if they actually use Claypool next year and he helps Fields, then that is a win. Why is it ok to overpay for Kirks but not Claypool? And if you think he is that bad at drafting then you shouldn't value the pick that much anyway. Plus now he doesn't need to overpay for a 2/3 this year in FA.

Jones was primarily a special teamer in his rookie year, yes. I'm not crazy about him being 25 as a rookie, and I didn't draft him in my draft either, but I was looking far more into 2023's season than Poles was.

I don't have an issue with drafting DBs in the 2022 draft. Now those two spots are locked in and cheap. I want to throw money to support Fields and do it this offseason. Even for the 1st rounder I'd be pissed if they took a WR or OT in the top 8. Now if that Fashanu kid from Penn State would have declared I would be good with getting him but still.

Also what do you mean "not negotiating" the BAL pick? That trade happened at the beginning of Nov and it seemed pretty clear that BAL was going to have a better record than GB or CHI. So if GB throws their second rounder then the Bears have just that round to beat them. And I have zero issue with losing a 2nd rounder if it keeps GB out of the postseason, and Claypool not being there absolutely did IMO. Claypool would have been a significant upgrade over Cobb and Doubs. With Claypool they get that win vs DET. Spite or not, that alone makes me like the trade.

Nothing has said he's over his head, he clearly went into tank mode to rid the Bears of Pace's overpaid players and netted the 1st overall pick. If the Bears are near the top 5 next year then I'll be concerned, but I think trying to add as much talent as he could around Fields does nothing but then we get what the 6th or 7th pick? I think netting the top pick is far more valuable, regardless if drafting Anderson/Carter or trading the pick away, than what the Bears would have starting at 1.8. Poles got to evaluate a lot of young players and found guys that he can build around rather than spending blindly.

Fields has star potential, Herbert can be a #1 RB in a rotation, Mooney was proven to be a #2, Kmet showed he can be a solid all around TE but has receiving limitations, Jones was solid at LT for most of the year, Jenkins looked like a future All Pro at times, Borom is not to be counted on at RT long term, Sanborn is a definite building block, Gordon and Brisker are building blocks, EJax can be the vet leader on defense if he heals up, etc.

Like I said, I think you're looking too much into 2022 with the "we should be winning now" mentality. I didn't want to win, even back in 2022 preseason I wanted to lose shootouts. Poles took a more conservative path than I would have, but I wouldn't have netter the top overall pick because of it. That may prove a far more valuable asset than what I would have gotten. Let him at least TRY to improve the team before having your mind absolutely made up. I man there is literally nothing similar to DEN's situation. They were supposed to be a Super Bowl contender, Bears were trying to acquire draft slots.

[CBears019]

I think most Bears fans would agree that we don’t think Poles is great, but we also don’t think he’s horrible.  He’s an unknown at this point.  This offseason he gets to really define himself as a GM.  

[BEAR FACE DOWN ARROW]

I'm with the brown fella on Poles.  In his favor he was pretty ruthless with cutting out anyone who wasn't going to be part of the future.  My biggest problem remains that he didn't create any kind of environment to evaluate Fields,  and if it hadn't been for Fields going full Superman there for a while we'd probably be pretty down on his potential as QB (which may have been the point.)  

While he hasn't been careless with dollars, the way he's handled Fields is just plain bad.  I think his trading for Claypool was an admission of that, and that didn't really work out.  I really think that Fields flaming out would have been an equally good outcome for Poles, which doesn't make sense given how rare QBs are.

Related to his prep for Fields this year is that so far I don't think his eye for talent is good.  It's tough to find a team that spent as little filling out the roster as the Bears did, but a large majority of the players brought in have been real ****ty.  It's fair to say a lot of these guys were league minimum signings, but most of them have played below that level which is frightening.  

Lastly, I don't think his plan is very coherent, and there's lots of instances of that.  Total teardown on the cheap, but with a big contract for a 3T?  Neglect WR but then overpay for Claypool?  Those are the big ones, but they point to someone who's making it up as they go.  Ogunjobi was one of their very first moves;  did the plan to go minimum-spend happen after that? Was he an exception to that?  Why spend in a season where the D was going to get gutted as we went anyway? I'm still holding out hope for Claypool, but if you were willing to give out what turned out to be a high pick for him, why the heck did we pass on all the WR that would have been available for less earlier in the season?   It all points to someone who is reacting instead of carrying out a plan.

Hoping to be very wrong: would be awesome if this off season is a series of shrewd trades and signings followed by a strong draft class, but there is nothing he has done to indicate he knows what that would look like.

[dll2000]

 

[RTD]

Red flags to me 

🚩That Ogunjobi contract that didn’t happen  Free agents don't go to the combine and do physicals before they are signed. They do them after they agree to terms. As for Ogun's performance, how do we know how he is as a 3T in our 43 when he was used as a 5T in Pitt's 34.

🚩Neglecting the offense last draft passing on Pickens/Pierce and o line early and drafting DBs instead Low or little FA $. Few high draft picks. Poles went BPA. Pierce and which Oline? Rainmann? please. As for Pickens, Poles drafted men with football IQ and character . He was taken off half of team draft boards. If he lasts 3 years with out a total meltdown I would be shocked. Tomlin will not put up with a stupid crap Kirby Smart does at UGA. 

🚩Drafting a 25 year old rookie instead who is primarily a special teamer. When he should’ve drafted Pickens and then went corner/safety in the third. Like it wasn’t rocket science. This is a good point.

🚩Trading a second rounder for Claypool and not negotiating the Baltimore pick. But regardless trading your own second rounder for Claypool regardless of the Baltimore pick was a bad move. It’s like now you wanna make a move when you passed up plenty of opportunities and now you gotta overpay. Bad moves man. If it walks like a duck and to me his moves show he’s in over his head. Don’t keep Nathaniel Hackett too long. At the time of the trade ,the valve was #40. That still maybe high for what we saw this year but with a full offseason and TC hanging with JF, Kmet and Mooney. Claypool should develop a good relationship with Fields. 

 

[blkwdw13]

I like how brownie man said he hasn't liked Poles since his first press conference while saying hopefully the Bears don't keep Nathanial Hackett. Seems like another person who really doesn't know the Bears.

[brownie man]

4 minutes ago, blkwdw13 said:

I like how brownie man said he hasn't liked Poles since his first press conference while saying hopefully the Bears don't keep Nathanial Hackett. Seems like another person who really doesn't know the Bears.

I was saying don’t keep a bad mistake around too long. 
 

I know who Poles is and like the other poster said his plan looks like he’s making decisions on the fly. There doesn’t seem to be an actual strategy especially on the offensive side.  

[RTD]

20 minutes ago, brownie man said:

I was saying don’t keep a bad mistake around too long. 
 

I know who Poles is and like the other poster said his plan looks like he’s making decisions on the fly. There doesn’t seem to be an actual strategy especially on the offensive side.  

I think trading Smith and Quinn and the time he traded both, show you Poles scripted a tank. He is not flying by the seat of his pants making decisions. This season went perfect to Poles plan. 

[Sugashane]

So I have a question. Claypool was talked about being a Tight End by a number of people because of his size, being a clear U-end. What about using him as a WR/TE hybrid?

 

Defenses can rotate personnel when you change your own, but he is 6'4" and 230. Taysom Hill played a fair bit of TE in his utility role and is smaller, Engram is only about 10 lbs heavier, Juwan Johnson, etc. Without having a lot of single EMLOS blocking responsibilities I see zero reason he can't fill that role. He can still help chip to the OT, and can be a mismatch in the middle.

 

My rationale is based on the fact that with him and Kmet (Kmet being in-line obviously) the Bears can either go 12 or 11 personnel without changing anything. If they rotate in an extra CB, then Claypool has the size/strength advantage. If they keep 3 LBs then spread them out. If we end up getting Hopkins/Adams/whoever at WR1 then that offers a ton of versatility IMO.

 

X - Hopkins

Y/U - Claypool

Z -  Mooney

F- Kmet

 

Claypool's size/speed could be a massive mismatch with him being able to move to the slot, line up right outside of Kmet, or be the speed end in double tight.

[Madmike90]

2 minutes ago, Sugashane said:

So I have a question. Claypool was talked about being a Tight End by a number of people because of his size, being a clear U-end. What about using him as a WR/TE hybrid?

 

Defenses can rotate personnel when you change your own, but he is 6'4" and 230. Taysom Hill played a fair bit of TE in his utility role and is smaller, Engram is only about 10 lbs heavier, Juwan Johnson, etc. Without having a lot of single EMLOS blocking responsibilities I see zero reason he can't fill that role. He can still help chip to the OT, and can be a mismatch in the middle.

 

My rationale is based on the fact that with him and Kmet (Kmet being in-line obviously) the Bears can either go 12 or 11 personnel without changing anything. If they rotate in an extra CB, then Claypool has the size/strength advantage. If they keep 3 LBs then spread them out. If we end up getting Hopkins/Adams/whoever at WR1 then that offers a ton of versatility IMO.

 

X - Hopkins

Y/U - Claypool

Z -  Mooney

F- Kmet

 

Claypool's size/speed could be a massive mismatch with him being able to move to the slot, line up right outside of Kmet, or be the speed end in double tight.

I want to give him a full offseason playing mainly as an outside receiver before looking to move him anywhere...I think his size/speed is more of a nightmare for #2 CBs around the league rather than anything else...if we can get a #1 and push Claypool to #2/#3 with Mooney playing more in the slot as a #2/#3 which then pushes Kmet down the pecking order for receptions but also coverage from defences...you then have a RB (potentially still Monty) who gives you another target out the backfield and Velus as a gadget player looks fairly strong to me especially before we even look at what we can add in the draft.

[Sugashane]

3 hours ago, Madmike90 said:

I want to give him a full offseason playing mainly as an outside receiver before looking to move him anywhere...I think his size/speed is more of a nightmare for #2 CBs around the league rather than anything else...if we can get a #1 and push Claypool to #2/#3 with Mooney playing more in the slot as a #2/#3 which then pushes Kmet down the pecking order for receptions but also coverage from defences...you then have a RB (potentially still Monty) who gives you another target out the backfield and Velus as a gadget player looks fairly strong to me especially before we even look at what we can add in the draft.

I can see the want for that but I think they need to learn more than one position. Claypool has 2 months already with the playbook and is being paid 7 figures, I see zero reason for him not to have multiple positions (at least X, Y, Z) memorized. That should be a prerequisite for all WRs imo. From what I saw this year they weren't exactly running the most complex system.