e16bball Posted December 28, 2022 Share Posted December 28, 2022 34 minutes ago, lavar703 said: You can't possibly believe a guy who's been slow with his decision making in the pocket since his NDSU days suddenly changed because he sat for 10 weeks? I think we all recognize that something sorta changed with him during that COVID season where he was so terrible. But you said “since his NDSU days,” so it might be important to point out that Heinicke’s career sack percentage is higher than Wentz’s. And even last year, Wentz’s sack percentage was 5.8%, which is substantially lower than anything Heinicke has ever produced with us. I really do think that that time to sit will help speed up the process for him. When he was playing, I often compared Wentz to Russell Wilson, who was also just painfully slow in getting to where he needed to go (mentally). It seems like it’s just not as easy as we’d imagine to absorb these systems and then go out and execute them like second nature against a bunch of guys who are trying to kill you. As I’ve said for over a decade about rookies (including both RGIII and Haskins), there’s a huge benefit to allowing a guy to sit and watch — they can learn from the real life situations and looks without having to cut corners to try to win the next game. They’re going to run the ball an absolute ton against CLE no matter who the QB is, so hopefully it will more closely resemble the Indianapolis attack from last season. We seem to forget (largely due to the fact that they booted him) that this is a guy who threw 27 TDs to 7 INTs last season, with a QBR that ranked 9th in the league. Protect him with a strong ground attack — which we did not, when he was starting before — and he can be pretty solid. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MKnight82 Posted December 28, 2022 Share Posted December 28, 2022 3 minutes ago, e16bball said: which we did not, when he was starting before Well we didn't have Brian Robinson. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slappy Mc Posted December 28, 2022 Share Posted December 28, 2022 21 minutes ago, MKnight82 said: The data backs me up. The only thing Taylor Heinicke is better at is heart. It's that simple. I pointed out statistically that Carson Wentz was the better QB many times. It's not my fault people fail to understand basic stats. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
e16bball Posted December 28, 2022 Share Posted December 28, 2022 23 minutes ago, MKnight82 said: Well we didn't have Brian Robinson. No doubt. The ability to lean on a power run game is a big difference from when he was in there before. Gives me some hope that they’ll avoid having him chuck it 50 times or whatever. CLE’s run defense is pretty poor (30th in run DVOA, bottom quarter in yards and YPC), so we really should be looking to use B-Rob heavily to control the clock and neutralize that pass rush. This is a team with nothing left to play for — it’s really been a wasted season for them with the whole Watson fiasco — so we just need to be physical with them and maybe they’ll go away. Giving that defense something to get fired up about by letting them tee off on Wentz would be disastrous for us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turtle28 Posted December 28, 2022 Share Posted December 28, 2022 41 minutes ago, MKnight82 said: Well we didn't have Brian Robinson. We had Gibby, McKissic, Jonathan Williams & Wentz combine for 142 yards in Dallas. We didn’t need BRob that game. In Chicago we had be BRob. We had 130 yards rushing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turtle28 Posted December 28, 2022 Share Posted December 28, 2022 47 minutes ago, e16bball said: They’re going to run the ball an absolute ton against CLE no matter who the QB is, so hopefully it will more closely resemble the Indianapolis attack from last season. We seem to forget (largely due to the fact that they booted him) that this is a guy who threw 27 TDs to 7 INTs last season, with a QBR that ranked 9th in the league. Protect him with a strong ground attack — which we did not, when he was starting before — and he can be pretty solid. Carson had 8 fumbles last year in Indy. He had 6 fumbles in 6 games for us this year. Fumbling is as much of a concern w/ Carson as it was with Heinicke & maybe more of a concern. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aceinthehouse Posted December 28, 2022 Share Posted December 28, 2022 Going to Wentz these final 2 games is the right move, imo. I can see an argument for Heinicke as well & certainly understand that. But I look at it from a couple of different perspectives. #1) How much of the Offense is Wentz comfortable with, compared to beginning of the season. #2) We need to score points. 20 points or less is not gonna do it. We have the weapons to do it, but haven't been able to deliver the ball for those situations. #3) We didn't have Robinson with Wentz at QB. No real threat to run the ball. How much of a difference will this make vs earlier in the year? Well, we don't know & won't until Wentz plays. #4) Our Defense is playing much better with Willie Jackson gone & now Chase Young is back. How good would we be with Wentz vs Taylor having this information? Well, we don't know & won't until Wentz plays. We've now lost 2 of 3 games & the other was a tie. Taylor played admirable in our run & deserves props for getting us where we are. But if Wentz is more comfortable & can get us even just 4-to-7 more pts a game, than what Taylor provided? How much better would that make us? How many more games can we win doing that. The fact is gentleman....Taylor & Carson are likely both gone next year with a new Owner, Coaching staff, etc. Why not give it one more shot to see what Wentz can do with these Offensive weapons? With a RB in Robinson to take a little pressure off him in tough situations. We can argue, complain, ***** & moan about who should be starting at QB all day. But there's one thing that isn't debatable.... Carson has the better arm & can not only get the ball to these playmakers in stride, but the ability to hit the long ball like we saw vs Jacksonville & games earlier in the year. And that my friends might be the difference of us playing in the Playoffs vs watching them from our couch. And if Wentz gets it done? Maybe has success in the playoffs? Maybe, just Maybe we don't have to go QB shopping next year & can focus on other more important positions. Cause we do know Taylor Heinicke is not going to be the starter for us next year. I'm not even sure he will be out backup. C'mon guys. Let's watch Wentz rip these final 2 games & see if he can do, what he failed to do in Indianapolis last year. Let's give Wentz his LAST shot at redemption. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Land Posted December 28, 2022 Share Posted December 28, 2022 13 minutes ago, turtle28 said: Carson had 8 fumbles last year in Indy. He had 6 fumbles in 6 games for us this year. Fumbling is as much of a concern w/ Carson as it was with Heinicke & maybe more of a concern. 1/6 of Carson's fumbles were lost. 5/7 of Taylor's have been lost. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lavar703 Posted December 28, 2022 Share Posted December 28, 2022 53 minutes ago, Slappy Mc said: The data backs me up. The only thing Taylor Heinicke is better at is heart. It's that simple. I pointed out statistically that Carson Wentz was the better QB many times. It's not my fault people fail to understand basic stats. This season? The statistics through Carson Wentz 6 starts are better than Heinicke? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lavar703 Posted December 28, 2022 Share Posted December 28, 2022 10 minutes ago, Scott Land said: 1/6 of Carson's fumbles were lost. 5/7 of Taylor's have been lost. Isn't this a weird way of judging it though? A fumble is a fumble. Obviously its worse if the defense recovers but its really a game of chance once the ball hits the ground. Are we crediting Wentz for other people falling on his fumbles? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Land Posted December 28, 2022 Share Posted December 28, 2022 5 minutes ago, lavar703 said: Isn't this a weird way of judging it though? A fumble is a fumble. Obviously its worse if the defense recovers but its really a game of chance once the ball hits the ground. Are we crediting Wentz for other people falling on his fumbles? Well I know he recovered a couple of his own fumbles, but no I'm not crediting him for this, I was simply stating a fact that his fumbles have been more detrimental to the team. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slappy Mc Posted December 28, 2022 Share Posted December 28, 2022 10 minutes ago, lavar703 said: This season? The statistics through Carson Wentz 6 starts are better than Heinicke? Absolutely. Every statistical category (minus maybe rush yards). I posted them in one of the threads, I can't remember which one. His passer rating, yards, completion pct, yards per game, TD/INT ratio ALL better than Heinickes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slappy Mc Posted December 28, 2022 Share Posted December 28, 2022 10 minutes ago, lavar703 said: Isn't this a weird way of judging it though? A fumble is a fumble. Obviously its worse if the defense recovers but its really a game of chance once the ball hits the ground. Are we crediting Wentz for other people falling on his fumbles? Well one is a turnover and one isn't, so yea I would say there is a difference. I don't want either to happen, but it would be better if we retained possession after it happens. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
e16bball Posted December 28, 2022 Share Posted December 28, 2022 26 minutes ago, turtle28 said: Carson had 8 fumbles last year in Indy. He had 6 fumbles in 6 games for us this year. Fumbling is as much of a concern w/ Carson as it was with Heinicke & maybe more of a concern. That’s true, although I didn’t really reference fumbling. But yes, their fumble frequency has been basically equal over the last two seasons (Carson has 14 in 23 starts, Taylor has 14 in 24 starts). The problem with Taylor is that — as with most parts of his game — it gets worse as the winter sets in. Fumble rate, INT rate, even sack rate is worse in December-January than in September-November. And, since we always talk about him being such a “winner,” he’s also 1-10-1 as a starter in December-January. It’s much harder to be an NFL QB when it’s cold and windy. Some guys just get disqualified as viable options when the weather gets bad, and I think he’s one of them. His arm strength, accuracy, ball security, etc. are marginal in the best of times. When it’s freezing and the wind is whipping, he just can’t do it. Not consistently. As I said, the weather somehow looks like it’ll be decent on Sunday. That would absolutely have been a factor in my decision — and it’s really the only thing that makes me feel torn about which direction to go. It’s going to be about defense and run game, no matter who the QB is. I just think Wentz gives you the better chance to hit some of those chunk throws at FedEx Field in January. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lavar703 Posted December 28, 2022 Share Posted December 28, 2022 (edited) Year Age Tm Pos No. G GS QBrec Cmp Att Cmp% Yds TD TD% Int Int% 1D Lng Y/A AY/A Y/C Y/G Rate QBR Sk Carson Wentz 2022 30 WAS QB 11 7 6 2-4-0 156 248 62.9 1612 11 4.4 6 2.4 76 75 6.5 6.3 10.3 230.3 86.3 32.6 23 Taylor Heinicke 2022 29 WAS QB 4 9 9 5-3-1 161 259 62.2 1859 12 4.6 6 2.3 93 61 7.2 7.1 11.5 206.6 89.6 45.0 19 @Slappy Mc This is the best I could find brother. I didn't include passing metrics. Edited December 28, 2022 by lavar703 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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