2023 QB

[Ray Reed]

 

[baltimoreRebel]

2 minutes ago, Ray Reed said:

 

This all but confirms that Lamar won't be available for any game in the playoffs. Time to rally behind Huntley. 

[Ray Reed]

21 minutes ago, baltimoreRebel said:

This all but confirms that Lamar won't be available for any game in the playoffs. Time to rally behind Huntley. 

yayyyy.

Time for a legendary JK DOBBINS performance. GO GETCHA SOME YOUNG MAN

[AngusMcFife]

36 minutes ago, Ray Reed said:

 

Is it just me or is it very obvious Lamar didn't write that? 

[Ray Reed]

12 minutes ago, AngusMcFife said:

Is it just me or is it very obvious Lamar didn't write that? 

Haha no shot he wrote it, def a PR person

[Ray Reed]

Ravens +9.5. Who else riding?!

[baltimoreRebel]

41 minutes ago, Ray Reed said:

Ravens +9.5. Who else riding?!

I'm taking that all day. 

[AFlaccoSeagulls]

1 hour ago, AngusMcFife said:

Is it just me or is it very obvious Lamar didn't write that? 

I was just coming here to say the same thing. Absolutely no chance he had any part in writing that lol

[DreamKid]

Probably not a great sign that it looks like Lamar is now dealing with a PR firm for public statements(Which previously has never appeared to be the case). Definitely positioning himself for other teams so they don't think he's just sitting out to preserve $$$.

My two cents on the situation is that Lamar would 100% play if he could, that's just how he's built. Unfortunate how all of this played out. 

 

[diamondbull424]

9 hours ago, AFlaccoSeagulls said:

And he got the best out of those players, did he not? Lamar is also a unanimous MVP in this offense at the professional level. It's not a media notion that we constructed this offense to maximize Lamar's skillset, it's a straight up proven fact. I don't even know how that's a controversial point, honestly.

However, like you pointed out here, he couldn't develop either of those guys as NFL-caliber passers and here we are with Lamar following that same trend to an extent because Greg Roman's passing scheme is so sloppy/lazy that it seems almost impossible for QB's to actually grow within it.

 

7 hours ago, Ray Reed said:

Not sure why @diamondbull424 is getting so defensive at the idea that a run-centric, option based offense was put into place in 2018 to utilize Lamar Jackson’s skillset. 

I never said Lamar couldn’t succeed in other offenses. I said the reason we continue to run pistol, option-based stuff under Roman is because Lamar is a mobile quarterback that makes that system effective, and when other guys who aren’t as talented as him try to take over that offense, that aren’t nearly as productive.

You really are going to argue against that? You don’t think Roman’s system is the way it is as currently constructed because Lamar is a talented running QB? You think this offense would run the same stuff if we had a Tom Brady or Flacco type back there?

Guess common sense is just “foolishly parroting media narratives” nowadays if someone (incorrectly) perceives it to be a slight against Lamar Jackson.

 

Both of you are clearly missing the boat. When do we say “Patrick Mahomes has an offense built specifically around him” or “Joe Burrow has an offense built specifically around his skill set.”

No, it’s an assertion that Lamar is a system QB and that the Roman system is somehow a system designed SPECIFICALLY so that Lamar can win and have success. Thus parroting that this system is designed specifically for Lamar’s skill set is INCREDIBLY LAZY because it’s a FACT that it is not. If it were, then how could Lamar have had so much success in any system outside of this one? If he’s had apex success (one heisman and a top 3 finish the following year) outside of Roman’s system, then it is not indeed designed specifically for him. And if Roman has used this system with other QBs and they’ve all failed to develop as passers but the offense had short term success running the football at an elite level before leveling back to simply good, then it’s also not a system that was designed to somehow maximize Lamar, but rather have Lamar maximize IT.

Which said another way, sure Lamar has succeeded with this offense, but I’m sure Deshaun Watson also would’ve excelled within this offense or Josh Allen or Kyler Murray or Jalen Hurts. The offense is designed for someone with mobility to take advantage of a numbers game. Yet all of those other QBs have excelled in other offenses as well and it’s only because Lamar is attached to Roman that somehow we act like this offense is somehow unique to Lamar himself and not unique to Greg Roman. We don’t say that Deshaun Watson or Josh Allen had offenses designed specifically around their “unique skill sets” yet we do this for Lamar? Why? The answer IMO is obvious. It’s a parroted narrative that the media orchestrated to cover up their inability to admit Lamar was more talented than they perceived. Instead the “offense designed for him” became synonymous with Lamar is a “system QB” that was somehow unlocked by Greg Roman’s offense while simultaneously ignoring this offense is far more bogged down than his collegiate offense.

 

Thus my point is that this system was NOT designed specifically FOR Lamar. It was designed FOR Greg Roman to have success running the football with misdirection plays and taking advantage of lighter boxes where he had the obvious numbers advantages within the box. It was designed specifically to compliment our defense and shorten the possessions of the game so that we could suffocate the more explosive offenses from having as many chances to execute off of explosive big plays. That is what this system was designed for, not Lamar’s “unique skill set.”

We saw Lamar in a more pro style offense with Bobby Petrino where we see more 12 personnel and 21 personnel vs the 22, 23, and 32 personnel that we’ve seen from Roman’s offense.

Louisville’s more pro style system resembles more closely what Philly has done for Hurts whereby they are threatening defenses from the outside as well as inside so defenses have to respect the entire field and that leaves more space for Lamar to target the middle of the field and more space so that less accurate throws have a greater chance of being completed, it also provides more space when scrambling as defenders are left trying to cover more speed on the field all at once vs not having to truly focus coverage on guys like Nick Boyle and Patrick Ricard because they’re not going to get behind defenders.

What’s more now that defenses no longer respect any threat of the pass, partly because our WRs suck so bad this season, partly because the scheme has so many slow threats on the field that aren’t going to expose blown coverages to any great degree, and partly because the offensive scheme has become incredibly predictable, there is no space to target the middle as defenses pack it in to account for all the garbage that goes that way. So really this offense is very much NOT designed for Lamar’s unique player profile on many levels. 

 

[diamondbull424]

1 hour ago, DreamKid said:

Probably not a great sign that it looks like Lamar is now dealing with a PR firm for public statements(Which previously has never appeared to be the case). Definitely positioning himself for other teams so they don't think he's just sitting out to preserve $$$.

My two cents on the situation is that Lamar would 100% play if he could, that's just how he's built. Unfortunate how all of this played out. 

 

I don’t see why this can’t just be family helping to put together a tweet. Considering the obvious grammatical mistake along with some language that I would see Lamar legitimately using like “my guys.”

But I think it’s smart anyway and I think Lamar should’ve come out with something like this, PR firm or not (I still think it’s just a mom/advisor approved tweet), I think he should’ve controlled the nature of his injury the moment that false info came out.

Whats more Harbaugh’s handling of this injury and the Stanley injury from a reporting perspective was complete garbage and helped to foster the unnecessary response from fans.

[AFlaccoSeagulls]

49 minutes ago, diamondbull424 said:

Both of you are clearly missing the boat. When do we say “Patrick Mahomes has an offense built specifically around him” or “Joe Burrow has an offense built specifically around his skill set.”

No, it’s an assertion that Lamar is a system QB and that the Roman system is somehow a system designed SPECIFICALLY so that Lamar can win and have success. Thus parroting that this system is designed specifically for Lamar’s skill set is INCREDIBLY LAZY because it’s a FACT that it is not. If it were, then how could Lamar have had so much success in any system outside of this one? If he’s had apex success (one heisman and a top 3 finish the following year) outside of Roman’s system, then it is not indeed designed specifically for him. And if Roman has used this system with other QBs and they’ve all failed to develop as passers but the offense had short term success running the football at an elite level before leveling back to simply good, then it’s also not a system that was designed to somehow maximize Lamar, but rather have Lamar maximize IT.

How is this system not designed for Lamar's skill set, which is being one of the most electric runners we've ever seen? That's literally the center piece of the entire thing. 

Lamar is definitely a system QB, in the same way Mahomes and Burrow are. If you put them in this offense running the plays Lamar does, you'd laugh your *** off at how ineffective it is. Likewise, trying to imagine Lamar in a pure pocket-passing offense is equally laughable, much like how laughable it was when the 49ers had Kaepernick do it. Lamar's a much better passer than Kaepernick but it's still his biggest weakness as a player.

Regardless of how you look at it, the offensive system that Lamar's in was specifically designed for a QB with Lamar's ability to run, and Lamar took that scheme and elevated it as you said. 

You ask how Lamar could have so much success in a system outside of this one, and the fact is, he hasn't, because the only other system we've seen him in was college, and that system still utilized a lot of the same running concepts you see here...College is an entirely different game. Tim freaking Tebow had success in college. Lamar looked like a decent passer in college, got to the NFL and couldn't even throw a spiral his entire rookie year. We have no idea what he would do in a different system that focused more on passing and less on running.

We both 100% agree that currently defenses do not respect the threat of the pass at all. The scheme has gotten so blatantly lopsided because of our lack of receivers that teams are just daring us to throw and we can't do it. However, it wasn't really like this when we had adequate weapons outside.

[Ray Reed]

7 hours ago, diamondbull424 said:

 

Both of you are clearly missing the boat. When do we say “Patrick Mahomes has an offense built specifically around him” or “Joe Burrow has an offense built specifically around his skill set.”

No, it’s an assertion that Lamar is a system QB and that the Roman system is somehow a system designed SPECIFICALLY so that Lamar can win and have success. Thus parroting that this system is designed specifically for Lamar’s skill set is INCREDIBLY LAZY because it’s a FACT that it is not. If it were, then how could Lamar have had so much success in any system outside of this one? If he’s had apex success (one heisman and a top 3 finish the following year) outside of Roman’s system, then it is not indeed designed specifically for him. And if Roman has used this system with other QBs and they’ve all failed to develop as passers but the offense had short term success running the football at an elite level before leveling back to simply good, then it’s also not a system that was designed to somehow maximize Lamar, but rather have Lamar maximize IT.

Which said another way, sure Lamar has succeeded with this offense, but I’m sure Deshaun Watson also would’ve excelled within this offense or Josh Allen or Kyler Murray or Jalen Hurts. The offense is designed for someone with mobility to take advantage of a numbers game. Yet all of those other QBs have excelled in other offenses as well and it’s only because Lamar is attached to Roman that somehow we act like this offense is somehow unique to Lamar himself and not unique to Greg Roman. We don’t say that Deshaun Watson or Josh Allen had offenses designed specifically around their “unique skill sets” yet we do this for Lamar? Why? The answer IMO is obvious. It’s a parroted narrative that the media orchestrated to cover up their inability to admit Lamar was more talented than they perceived. Instead the “offense designed for him” became synonymous with Lamar is a “system QB” that was somehow unlocked by Greg Roman’s offense while simultaneously ignoring this offense is far more bogged down than his collegiate offense.

 

Thus my point is that this system was NOT designed specifically FOR Lamar. It was designed FOR Greg Roman to have success running the football with misdirection plays and taking advantage of lighter boxes where he had the obvious numbers advantages within the box. It was designed specifically to compliment our defense and shorten the possessions of the game so that we could suffocate the more explosive offenses from having as many chances to execute off of explosive big plays. That is what this system was designed for, not Lamar’s “unique skill set.”

We saw Lamar in a more pro style offense with Bobby Petrino where we see more 12 personnel and 21 personnel vs the 22, 23, and 32 personnel that we’ve seen from Roman’s offense.

Louisville’s more pro style system resembles more closely what Philly has done for Hurts whereby they are threatening defenses from the outside as well as inside so defenses have to respect the entire field and that leaves more space for Lamar to target the middle of the field and more space so that less accurate throws have a greater chance of being completed, it also provides more space when scrambling as defenders are left trying to cover more speed on the field all at once vs not having to truly focus coverage on guys like Nick Boyle and Patrick Ricard because they’re not going to get behind defenders.

What’s more now that defenses no longer respect any threat of the pass, partly because our WRs suck so bad this season, partly because the scheme has so many slow threats on the field that aren’t going to expose blown coverages to any great degree, and partly because the offensive scheme has become incredibly predictable, there is no space to target the middle as defenses pack it in to account for all the garbage that goes that way. So really this offense is very much NOT designed for Lamar’s unique player profile on many levels. 

 

No.

We haven't missed the boat on anything. 

You've entirely miscomprehended what we've said in this thread, what the original impetus of the argument was, and created a strawman argument about Lamar being a "system QB" because it's incredibly hard for you nowadays to have a good faith conversation about Lamar Jackson without taking everything as some perceived slight towards him.

First off, I want you to read the original statement I made in this thread that you're arguing against:

Quote

To be fair - this is an offense (both schematically and personnel wise) that was built entirely around the skillset of Lamar Jackson. Obviously when you have an offense built completely around what he does, and another player comes in and can’t do what he does (Huntley and Brown) within the framework of the offense, it’s going to look like crap.

If Lamar indeed does leave, the offense isn’t going to be built the same way and it won’t be run the same way.

The first thing you need to understand is that there's a difference between saying an offense is built around the skillset of a player, and calling that player a "system QB" (which you seem to keep using as synonyms). They aren't the same thing. They're quite different. Saying an offense is built around the skillset of a player implies that the offense tries to exploit the defense using a particular + trait or two that QB has (in this example, Lamar's mobility/ability to run the option). A "system QB" implies that QB can only succeed in that type of offense. These are not the same thing, and I never said the latter about Lamar Jackson. You have entirely projected the idea that I think Lamar Jackson is a system QB. I never said it. In fact I said the opposite - that the offense relies entirely on his unique skillet to work, and when he's not operating the offense, it goes to crap.

The second thing you need to understand is that yes, this offense is built around and predicated on Lamar Jackson's mobility to be effective. That is inarguable. If you've been watching this offense for the past 5 years and you're still unable to deduce that the offense is built off of the threat of Lamar Jackson running the ball - effectively playing 11 v 11 instead of 10 v 11 - and that everything in the offense builds from that, I'd suggest checking out these film channels who make that abundantly clear:
https://www.youtube.com/@all_22_films
https://www.youtube.com/@TopBillinSports
https://www.youtube.com/@edgarallen789

It's how the offense is designed. That's the reality of the situation. It's why our offense has traditionally been at its most efficient when the read-option was working well and everything could be built off of that (see: entire 2019 season, 2nd half of 2020), and why the offense is way less effective when teams have done a good job taking that element of the offense away (see: 2018 chargers playoff game). 

The third thing you need to understand is that Lamar Jackson isn't the only QB whose offense is built around their strengths. It's not some uncommon practice, and it certainly isn't the insult you seem to take it as. And quite frankly its asinine to argue against. The Bears offense is built around Fields' running ability. The Cardinals offense is built around Kyler's running ability. The Eagles (yes, even 12 personnel offenses can be built around a QB's running ability) offense is built around Hurts' running ability. The difference is those teams (outside of the Bears) have done a better job supplementing that core foundation of their mobile-QB offense with a passing game to compliment it. Roman and the Ravens haven't, and that's why when a QB who doesn't have the generational running ability of Jackson comes in and tries to run it, the offense looks significantly worse. Because our offense is built around the read-option working effectively.

That's what @AFlaccoSeagulls and I are getting at. And don't bother responding if you're just going to revert back to the "YOURE CALLING LAMAR A SYSTEM QB, THATS MEDIA PROPAGANDA, HE CAN SUCCEED IN ANY SYSTEM). Because that's not remotely what is being said in this thread, no matter how bad you want it to be or not.

Edited January 13, 2023 by Ray Reed

[diamondbull424]

@AFlaccoSeagullsand @Ray Reed this offense isn’t built SPECIFICALLY for Lamar, which is the point of contestation.

It’s a parroted narrative that the Ravens built this offense SPECIFICALLY for Lamar. Where do we hear the media say this with any other QB? Where do they say it with Josh Allen, Jalen Hurts, Patrick Mahomes, Joe Burrow, etc?

They don’t. And I made abundantly clear from my first post that I was referring from the get go the media driven narrative that this offense is built FOR Lamar and that the language used is likely being subverted FROM those talking points.

I think both of you are falling into the trap by the media that this offense was designed for Lamar and not that Lamar is in this offense and they incorporated Roman’s offense because he is here and that was their most creative approach of how to use his talents. This offense has been recycled and Lamar just supercharged it with his athleticism.

You’re legit getting defensive basically saying I’m putting words in your mouth when I’ve made it abundantly clear that the verbiage you use is the problem, not your actual beliefs itself.

So no. It’s built around the mobility of a QB, not Lamar specifically. It’s why Tyler Huntley was added, for his mobility within Roman’s system. It’s why Kaepernick ran it. It’s why Tyrod Taylor ran it.

Many QBs have run the west coast offense, yet we don’t say the west coast offense was “designed specifically for Peyton Manning’s unique skill set” or we don’t talk about the Air Coryell system and say “this offense was designed specifically for Joe Flacco’s unique skill set.” No, we just acknowledge that those QBs are within those offenses. And with Flacco many felt (myself included) that he might’ve been better within a west coast system.

So @Ray Reed you talking about how this offense works is condescending tbqh. I’ve mentioned that and those concepts are RUN FOCUSED. Whereas this is a passing league.

You’re getting offended when I’m referring to the general diagnosis that this offense is somehow specific to Lamar and not specific to Roman.

9 hours ago, AFlaccoSeagulls said:

Lamar looked like a decent passer in college, got to the NFL and couldn't even throw a spiral his entire rookie year. We have no idea what he would do in a different system that focused more on passing and less on running.

This is no different than the Jamar Chase effect. The NFL ball is different than the college ball. Chase went from one of the GOAT college WRs to dropping everything in sight to start. Than he got used to the ball and the rest is history.

Lamar took time to get used to the NFL ball (and he mentioned as a rookie that he was adjusting to the NFL ball) because as you mentioned he looked like a capable passer in college and then he weirdly looked like a JV QB to start. And as we know Flacco likely got the majority of the practice reps his rookie season and so that likely played a part in the broken spirals so far into his rookie (2018) season.

Anyways back to my point in pushing back against this Roman offense being designed specifically for Lamar as if it takes all of his strengths and weaknesses into the equation. Just like the Air Coryell was not designed specifically for Flacco and he should’ve been in an offense with more West Coast concepts earlier in his career and he might’ve had more success (but Harbaugh is always trying to be counter culture and “different.”)

The Roman offense historically uses more 23 and 32 personnel. Whereas it was EDC that likely wanted to add more weapons to make this more of a 21 and 12 personnel offensive attack like we saw briefly last season (albeit with a below average OL).

Yet typically when we refer to an offense we talk about the passing concepts and how they’re differentiated from one another. Roman’s PASSING CONCEPTS are not built for Lamar and his run concepts actually incorporate speed deficiencies which clog passing lanes and condense defenders. That helps if you can get them all on the wrong side of there LOS and use Lamar’s speed to run the other way or catch them off guard on jet motion, but when a QB needs to pass through that clutter it’s very much ineffective and inefficient.

So yeah from a pure running perspective this offense utilizes Lamar’s legs, but so would many others. It doesn’t take a genius to use a QBs mobility to fuel a run game. We see it around the NFL, but these pass concepts are rudimentary, basic, and underdeveloped. They’re not designed to activate Lamar as a passer in the same way the Air Coryell system didn’t help Flacco the passer and it wasn’t until we switched the concepts from Cam Cameron to Jim Caldwell and then again when we had Kubiak who both were disciples of the west coast offense that Flacco had his best performances (playoffs and regular season).

Roman’s offense isn’t specifically designed for Lamar, it’s designed for a mobile QB to activate the run offense by a numbers advantage only. And then it puts minimal emphases on how to win in the passing game with proper spacing and layering of receivers.

Lamar having an offense built around him would incorporate passing concepts that would be predicated on his strengths as a passer as well. So no, saying this offense is somehow tailor made to him isn’t true. He’s just better at running it then our backups because he’s one of the most as you put it:

9 hours ago, AFlaccoSeagulls said:

Lamar's skill set, which is being one of the most electric runners we've ever seen?

So yeah he’s electrifying and so he operates it better than our backups. But the system is flawed and he’s just talented enough to make a flawed system look better than 9 points a game.

Which you’ve acknowledged. You’ve acknowledged that the passing attack is incredibly rudimentary. That is a PART of this offense. So it’s weird that you would also subscribe to the narrative that this offense was build specific to Lamar.

Edited January 13, 2023 by diamondbull424

[AngusMcFife]

10 hours ago, diamondbull424 said:

I don’t see why this can’t just be family helping to put together a tweet. Considering the obvious grammatical mistake along with some language that I would see Lamar legitimately using like “my guys.”

But I think it’s smart anyway and I think Lamar should’ve come out with something like this, PR firm or not (I still think it’s just a mom/advisor approved tweet), I think he should’ve controlled the nature of his injury the moment that false info came out.

Whats more Harbaugh’s handling of this injury and the Stanley injury from a reporting perspective was complete garbage and helped to foster the unnecessary response from fans.

I would have preferred a video of Lamar speaking rather than a statement he obviously didn't write. 

I'm also intrigued by his mention of a grade 2 sprain that is borderline a grade 3. Do we know that is true? If it is, then Harbaugh and the Ravens made a massive blunder implying that Lamar could be back for the Falcons game at earliest. 

I have my doubts. I feel like it is grade 1-2 sprain that is healing slowly. If it was a close to a grade 3 then the Ravens would have indicated he would be out multiple weeks and might not come back.