The Lamar offseason talk thread

[AngusMcFife]

10 hours ago, DreamKid said:

If his position is that of wanting a fully guaranteed deal, which is what the indication is, then it's an either/or situation. Either Biscotti is willing to give him the deal or we're forced to trade him. That simple. The three years of regression don't matter.

Option 3: Let Lamar negotiate with other teams, find out that nobody is willing to offer him a Watson-like contract, and he'll adjust his demands accordingly. 

[AngusMcFife]

50 minutes ago, Ray Reed said:

Which is entirely needed on the situation, and I'm with you. But unfortunately over the past year and a half or so it feels like this place has slowly morphed from a Ravens forum into a Lamar forum, and I'm finding it more and more difficult to have good faith conversations about this player on this site.

Typically even the smallest sort of criticism of the guy is met with either harsh backlash or is explained away through a bunch of mental gymnastics as to why his performance declining either a. isn't his fault or b. actually doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things.

Really? I think there are varied opinions of Lamar here, and none are terribly outlandish. 

[Xmad]

45 minutes ago, AngusMcFife said:

Option 3: Let Lamar negotiate with other teams, find out that nobody is willing to offer him a Watson-like contract, and he'll adjust his demands accordingly. 

Option 3: Let those others teams offer a contract that screws over the ravens cap wise, they're not gonna let anyone else dictate their negotiations with their franchise QB. 

*Looks at steelers* while I doubt they'd do it Tomlin sure as hell wouldn't be against giving up two firsts for a top 5 QB from a divisional Rival. 

[M.10.E]

Offer him a similar contract to the last offer maybe slightly better and if he doesn’t budge then start looking for a trade partner. Negotiation is a compromise between both parties and Lamar doesn’t seem to want to budge at all. Pretty simple in my mind. 

Edited January 25, 2023 by M.10.E

[AFlaccoSeagulls]

1 hour ago, M.10.E said:

Offer him a similar contract to the last offer maybe slightly better and if he doesn’t budge then start looking for a trade partner. Negotiation is a compromise between both parties and Lamar doesn’t seem to want to budge at all. Pretty simple in my mind. 

If this is true, it's largely because the only people in his ear are people from his family and the NFLPA who of course are going to tell him he's worth more than Deshaun Watson got without any sense of being objective about it.

At the same time, I am encouraged that EDC was able to get a deal done with Roquan who doesn't have an agent either, but also seems to be a lot more mature in many ways.

[diamondbull424]

4 hours ago, AFlaccoSeagulls said:

If this is true, it's largely because the only people in his ear are people from his family and the NFLPA who of course are going to tell him he's worth more than Deshaun Watson got without any sense of being objective about it.

At the same time, I am encouraged that EDC was able to get a deal done with Roquan who doesn't have an agent either, but also seems to be a lot more mature in many ways.

People say that about Roquan but we offered him record breaking numbers for an ILB at $20m/year APY. It’s easy to be reasonable when the team is offering you a record breaking deal.

Conversely if the Ravens were offering Lamar $50.5m APY, $455m overall, or $232.5m guaranteed… I’m sure Lamar would be mature as well and sign the deal offered.

Outside of Warner at $19m APY the next highest ILB was $17m for CJ Mosley. The Bears were willing to go to $18m APY (by all accounts) when Roquan resorted to, according to Bears fans, shenanigans and asking for a trade.

We don’t have any idea whether Lamar is “not budging” or if he’s “negotiating in good faith” or not. But Lamar didn’t hold out or demand a trade, I’d say that’s pretty mature.

The immature stuff like getting in Twitter finger wars with fans was an absolute bad look. But the injury that Lamar could’ve “played through” is all media driven speculation IMO.

We’ve got players saying he’s been limping around the facility (Humphrey). Even Sammy Watkins said he hoped Lamar could limp his way out there and play for the team. So it’s not as if Lamar was walking without a limp. Which supports the Lamar story about him having a high grade 2 PCL sprain, which is a normal 3-4 month recovery and perhaps sooner for a professional athlete with the best access to trainers and doctors. Maybe he would’ve been ready last week or this week, but assuming it’s contract related sounds like media created hysteria. Especially when we consider Occum’s Razor.

[Ray Reed]

On 1/25/2023 at 11:12 AM, AngusMcFife said:

Really? I think there are varied opinions of Lamar here, and none are terribly outlandish. 

It was more pronounced during the season for sure, but yeah, pretty much couldn’t remotely critique anything about Lamar all season without getting tons of notifications on here of people responding like I had just said he deserved to die or something lol. A lot of the time it was framed as me having “Lamar hate” even if it was something as innocuous as saying the offense should have gotten some more first downs in the 4th to help ice the game. 

I don’t think it’s unique to this forum though. A strong Lamar > Ravens sentiment has grown for the past couple of years throughout social media. Even as we speak we have Qadry arguing against what he calls the “Lamar-ites” on twitter haha

 

[M.10.E]

17 hours ago, Ray Reed said:

It was more pronounced during the season for sure, but yeah, pretty much couldn’t remotely critique anything about Lamar all season without getting tons of notifications on here of people responding like I had just said he deserved to die or something lol. A lot of the time it was framed as me having “Lamar hate” even if it was something as innocuous as saying the offense should have gotten some more first downs in the 4th to help ice the game. 

I don’t think it’s unique to this forum though. A strong Lamar > Ravens sentiment has grown for the past couple of years throughout social media. Even as we speak we have Qadry arguing against what he calls the “Lamar-ites” on twitter haha

 

He's the only player in Ravens history where there is a decent amount of fans want him to get the most money possible from the team. They'd rather him get the Watson contract than a team friendly deal. It's bananas.

Edited January 27, 2023 by M.10.E

[paraven]

14 minutes ago, M.10.E said:

He's the only player in Ravens history where there is a decent amount of fans want him to get the most money possible from the team. They'd rather him get the Watson contract than a team friendly deal. It's bananas.

Thats because a decent amount of fans are Lamar fans and not ravens fan. 

[paraven]

after watching Mahomes last night play on one leg and get the win, its harder and harder to justify giving jackson the kind of guarantee's he is seeking. Let some other team pay that and lets move on. Its clear he self diagnosed himself with that weird grade 2 almost grade 3 statement, when nothing ever came from the ravens about it. Its obvious the team doctors did not diagnose him with that. Its also very unlikely a doctor would go and say something like "almost grade 3". Tie this is with him jumping around on the sidelines, one can deduct he clearly quit on his team.

[diamondbull424]

2 hours ago, paraven said:

after watching Mahomes last night play on one leg and get the win, its harder and harder to justify giving jackson the kind of guarantee's he is seeking. Let some other team pay that and lets move on. Its clear he self diagnosed himself with that weird grade 2 almost grade 3 statement, when nothing ever came from the ravens about it. Its obvious the team doctors did not diagnose him with that. Its also very unlikely a doctor would go and say something like "almost grade 3". Tie this is with him jumping around on the sidelines, one can deduct he clearly quit on his team.

Actually this is incorrect analysis. I legit asked a doctor friend of mine and she stated that it’s not weird.

She mentioned that if the sprain is severe enough to where it’s almost a complete PCL tear it could indeed be described to a patient as “borderline grade 3” so as to simplify to the patient the severity.

A grade 1 is a minor tear, a grade 2 is a moderate tear, and a grade 3 is a complete tear. Thus there is a distinguishing difference in the terminology between a low grade two and a high grade 2 sprain; one being severe to the point where it nearly completely tore, but did not. That’s more severe and is typically a 3-4 month recovery vs a 3-6 week recovery for a “normal” grade 2 sprain. But don’t take my word for it.

Quote

PCL sprains and low-level tears such as grade 1 and low grade 2 tears, have minimal damage to the ligament and can recover quickly within 2-6 weeks, with no need for surgical intervention. More severe injuries such as high grade 2 and grade 3 PCL tears will take longer to recover, without surgery this may be 3-4 months, and if surgery is needed the recovery may be 12 months of rehabilitation.

https://james-mccormack.com/advice-centre/pcl-injury-recovery/

 

[coordinator0]

Yeah. Whatever Mahomes is dealing with is completely irrelevant to Jackson's situation. It's a nice and easy target to hit, but one is not the other. 

[paraven]

50 minutes ago, diamondbull424 said:

Actually this is incorrect analysis. I legit asked a doctor friend of mine and she stated that it’s not weird.

She mentioned that if the sprain is severe enough to where it’s almost a complete PCL tear it could indeed be described to a patient as “borderline grade 3” so as to simplify to the patient the severity.

A grade 1 is a minor tear, a grade 2 is a moderate tear, and a grade 3 is a complete tear. Thus there is a distinguishing difference in the terminology between a low grade two and a high grade 2 sprain; one being severe to the point where it nearly completely tore, but did not. That’s more severe and is typically a 3-4 month recovery vs a 3-6 week recovery for a “normal” grade 2 sprain. But don’t take my word for it.

 

Still doesn’t explain why the team wouldn’t have just come out and say that. Why would they want this rhetoric to start to begin with. The only logical explanation is that the team didn’t have that opinion on his injury. I also asked a Dr friend if someone with a grade 2 or 3 pcl strain could jump up and down on the sideline, they said not likely  

Edited January 30, 2023 by paraven

[SteelKing728]

How are you guys going to pay 2 pro bowl QBs?!?!?

lol

[diamondbull424]

17 hours ago, paraven said:

Still doesn’t explain why the team wouldn’t have just come out and say that. Why would they want this rhetoric to start to begin with. The only logical explanation is that the team didn’t have that opinion on his injury. I also asked a Dr friend if someone with a grade 2 or 3 pcl strain could jump up and down on the sideline, they said not likely  

This is actually quite simple in retrospect. Here is (one of) the initial reports of the injury.

Quote

Ravens’ HC John Harbaugh said Lamar Jackson’s knee injury is “days to weeks”, but it is not season ending, and there will be further testing Monday.
https://twitter.com/AdamSchefter/status/1599513002667307008?s=20&t=mkoCHYXRqfeE9fsMhJsaJg

 

Ravens quarterback Lamar Jackson has been diagnosed with a sprained posterior cruciate ligament after suffering a knee injury in Sunday’s win over the Broncos, according to ESPN’s Adam Schefter. After the game, coach John Harbaugh told reporters that Jackson is “days to weeks” from returning.

PCL injuries typically sideline players for one to three weeks, according to Schefter. The timeline would be in line with Harbaugh saying the injury isn’t season ending.

https://www.si.com/.amp/nfl/2022/12/06/lamar-jackson-suffered-pcl-injury-sunday-per-report

1) So let’s think about this with the full benefit of hindsight. The day of the game Harbaugh reports about Jackson’s injury before further testing (likely an MRI, as Bengals are the only team with an MRI facility at their stadium). He says days to weeks before knowing the extent of the injury.

The Ravens simply announce that Lamar has a PCL strain, they don’t mention what grade it is, just what it is. Schefter is the one who assumed that it was 1-3 weeks based on “normal PCL sprains”. Not based off this situation or any information obtained. This assumption in his reporting, along with Harbaugh’s initial reporting is what created the assumption that Lamar had a grade 1 PCL strain.

We then heard rumors and/or a report that the injury was thought to be a grade two sprain which has a normal recovery time of 3-6 weeks. This wasn’t something confirmed nor denied by the Ravens and they are typically very cryptic regarding injuries for gamesmanship purposes.

Then we later have Harbaugh dog walking back the initial prognosis with the media where he talks about how he didn’t want to comment on the nature of injuries because each one is different.

So either a) Harbaugh misspoke and assumed days to weeks based off perhaps an assumption by the medical staff that they felt it was PCL related and that most PCL injuries take 1-3 weeks to heal… and then that later snowballed because the Ravens were either actively using the lack of injury update as a gamesmanship type of competitive advantage where teams consistently were left preparing for both Huntley AND Lamar, thus also allowing the Lamar narrative to get out of hand in the process…

OR on the same day as the injury, Harbaugh magically already knew that Lamar had a PCL strain and knew the exact medical prognosis of it and Lamar simply quit on the team and were able to verify that based off reporting from the exact same day as the injury.

2) I’m not sure if you’re being facetious with your comment about a doctor friend or not, irrelevant. This one’s simple. I could hop up and down when I was recovering from a torn ACL in my right knee. You see, I would do this thing where I would jump (like an idiot) and then land on my left knee.