Jump to content

Super Bowl LVII - Philadelphia vs Kansas City


Leader

Recommended Posts

2 hours ago, vegas492 said:

Do they, though?

Going from memory...Eric Fisher was a #1 overall pick, right?  Hard bust.

Dee Ford.  First round pick.  Bust.

Marcus Peters...so good for them that he didn't get a second contract?  I mean, I feel like he was a very good corner at one time, but not someone they wanted to keep.  First round pick.

Clyde Edwards Helaire....he's a bust, isn't he?  

And those are first rounders.  I think they went a while without a first round pick, too.  But guys like Mercole Hardman are kinda of busts.  Breeland Speaks.  

Chiefs got a generational talent at QB.  And hit a generational talent in the second round with Chris Jones.  

Overlooked character stuff and got Hill in the 5'th.  Hunt in the 3rd.  Kelce in the third.

But make no mistake, they win because they have a generational talent at QB.  And they've hit gold a few times in the mid rounds with Kelce, Hill and Jones.

 

Look at the contribution from players with less than 3 years in the league vs. the contribution from Packers picks.   

You are very kind to Packers picks and downplaying the KC picks in your review.   KC drafted 2 CB's in late rounds last year who contributed more than our 2021 1st round rookie.

Having Mahomes work out certainly helps, but football is a team game.  The success is built on getting All pro's such as Creed Humphrey (after we pick in your vernacular a bust like Myers).  It rests on getting players like Pacheko in the 7th round.  Watson who made big plays at CB drafted in the 7th round last year.   Joshua Williams giving up 0 TD's after playing over 500 snaps at CB - a 4th round pick.

A contribution like the Chiefs get from Hardmann, or Helaire would look pretty good compared to the poor play of a higher pick such as Savage.

Don't downplay getting a Kelse in the 3rd, a Chris Jones in the 2nd.   This is what separates the franchises.   GB under Gute haven't found enough diamonds in the rough to be a long-term successful franchise.  Our talent base has been slowly eroding and people are still marveling at the couple good picks and ignoring the balance.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, vegas492 said:

Do they, though?

Going from memory...Eric Fisher was a #1 overall pick, right?  Hard bust.

Dee Ford.  First round pick.  Bust.

Marcus Peters...so good for them that he didn't get a second contract?  I mean, I feel like he was a very good corner at one time, but not someone they wanted to keep.  First round pick.

Clyde Edwards Helaire....he's a bust, isn't he?  

And those are first rounders.  I think they went a while without a first round pick, too.  But guys like Mercole Hardman are kinda of busts.  Breeland Speaks.  

Chiefs got a generational talent at QB.  And hit a generational talent in the second round with Chris Jones.

Overlooked character stuff and got Hill in the 5'th.  Hunt in the 3rd.  Kelce in the third.

But make no mistake, they win because they have a generational talent at QB.  And they've hit gold a few times in the mid rounds with Kelce, Hill and Jones.

 

Don't forget the fact that Travis Kelce, Chris Jones, and Patrick Mahomes were drafted by the prior GM. Criticizing the current Packers GM while lifting up the present KC GM who also inherited his best players or needed to trade/sign FAs for other impact players sure is a choice.

Also, I find it funny that Mahomes succeeded with an all-Pro receiving option, MVS, and JAGs and this is being applauded as the other team doing what Gute could not but then Rodgers comes up small with an All-Pro weapon, MVS, and JAGs and that is somehow Gute's tremendous failing.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, Striker said:

Don't forget the fact that Travis Kelce, Chris Jones, and Patrick Mahomes were drafted by the prior GM. Criticizing the current Packers GM while lifting up the present KC GM who also inherited his best players or needed to trade/sign FAs for other impact players sure is a choice.

Also, I find it funny that Mahomes succeeded with an all-Pro receiving option, MVS, and JAGs and this is being applauded as the other team doing what Gute could not but then Rodgers comes up small with an All-Pro weapon, MVS, and JAGs and that is somehow Gute's tremendous failing.

We should ignore everything that is not Rodgers for some reason?   Let's forget about the other players and put the onus solely on 1 player.  If that makes it easier to be a fan than fine.   Denial is strong.

It doesn't make sense or address the other differences.   You made no comment about the contributions from young players drafted by both current regimes so you can put forward the tired argument that it all falls on AR.    

Our 2020 and 2021 drafts were brutally bad and have contributed to the overall decline in talent.  KC got more out of their 2022 draft picks taken after the 3rd round than the Packers got out of the entire 2020 and 2021 drafts.

I was strongly against the last AR contract but can't ignore the rest of the organizations failures that couple with the bad contract to make the current outlook bleak.  Gute has done a poor job over his tenure.   I guess you ca blame Murphy if you want for AR but that doesn't change the poor draft results,

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, hitnhope said:

Look at the contribution from players with less than 3 years in the league vs. the contribution from Packers picks.   

You are very kind to Packers picks and downplaying the KC picks in your review.   KC drafted 2 CB's in late rounds last year who contributed more than our 2021 1st round rookie.

Having Mahomes work out certainly helps, but football is a team game.  The success is built on getting All pro's such as Creed Humphrey (after we pick in your vernacular a bust like Myers).  It rests on getting players like Pacheko in the 7th round.  Watson who made big plays at CB drafted in the 7th round last year.   Joshua Williams giving up 0 TD's after playing over 500 snaps at CB - a 4th round pick.

A contribution like the Chiefs get from Hardmann, or Helaire would look pretty good compared to the poor play of a higher pick such as Savage.

Don't downplay getting a Kelse in the 3rd, a Chris Jones in the 2nd.   This is what separates the franchises.   GB under Gute haven't found enough diamonds in the rough to be a long-term successful franchise.  Our talent base has been slowly eroding and people are still marveling at the couple good picks and ignoring the balance.

Pacheco contributed because CEH, a first round pick, has been a bust and got injured. If we want to play the hindsight game that happens so often with Gute, KC also passed on Higgins, Pittman, Swift, and Jonathan Taylor to draft CEH.

Watson and Williams have been incredibly inconsistent all season. Very up and down. Good on them for doing what they needed to in the AFCG, but they could easily get roasted in the Super Bowl when KC isn't facing a team down 3 starting offensive linemen. Hell, the KC defense gave up the most passing touchdowns during the regular season. I'm pretty sure those kinds of results would get Gute shredded.

re: Hardman - He's basically MVS. But a second round pick. And, again, if we want to play the hindsight game KC passed on Metcalf, Diontae Johnson, and Terry McLaurin to pick him.

re: CEH part 2 - His numbers are comparable to AJ Dillon's, and CEH has been the started for almost all of the game's he's appeared in, has played in a better offense, and has been the lead back in a series of committees with underwhelming competition for snaps/targets.

And, again, Kelce and Jones have been there longer than the current GM. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 minutes ago, hitnhope said:

We should ignore everything that is not Rodgers for some reason?   Let's forget about the other players and put the onus solely on 1 player.  If that makes it easier to be a fan than fine.   Denial is strong.

It doesn't make sense or address the other differences.   You made no comment about the contributions from young players drafted by both current regimes so you can put forward the tired argument that it all falls on AR.    

Our 2020 and 2021 drafts were brutally bad and have contributed to the overall decline in talent.  KC got more out of their 2022 draft picks taken after the 3rd round than the Packers got out of the entire 2020 and 2021 drafts.

I was strongly against the last AR contract but can't ignore the rest of the organizations failures that couple with the bad contract to make the current outlook bleak.  Gute has done a poor job over his tenure.   I guess you ca blame Murphy if you want for AR but that doesn't change the poor draft results,

I have touched on the other drafts and team building differences multiple times. But the bolded is a flaw in how you look at these situations/use it to criticize Gute/elevate other GMs.

That criticism you made could also be used to knock Veach since the 2022 draft class looks like it may also contribute more than his own 2018, 2019, and 2020 drafts combined.

Sometimes GMs just run absurdly hot/cold with picks. Veach had a rough 2018 and 2019. 2020 has been a mixed bag, mostly because of injury luck. 2021 and 2022 have been on fire. 

Gute's 2021 still could be good. 2022 could also have a high ceiling with the first three picks alone, if they all develop. And that's not including contributions from the other 7 players still on the roster who have variably flashed.

...also this is ignoring the good work done in terms of UDFA/FA.

And, again, Gute's teams had 13 win seasons three straight times. Two of those three teams were in serious contention. Now they hit a down a season. 

These. Bad. Runs. Happen.

Especially with QBs who are not playing at a Patrick Mahomes/prime Manning/prime Rodgers/prime Brady level. Just in recent history the 49ers have had 3/6 losing seasons, including one after a Super Bowl appearance. The Rams absolutely imploded. The Bucs fell apart. Yes, they made the playoffs but the NFC South sucked and someone had to win. The Saints, with Drew Brees playing really good football, had three straight 7-9 seasons during the 2010s. The Eagles slid after their SB win, blew it all up (with the same GM blowing it all up), and are back on top of the NFC. The Steelers have had multiple down seasons throughout Tomlin's tenure.

This year's Packers team had an unfavorable SOS. They had unexpected regression from some of their best players. A few others didn't make a leap. They had bad injury luck/didn't get some of their better players back quickly. They could easily bounce back next year, even with the cap situation. Do I still think keeping Rodgers was a mistake? Yes, absolutely. But, as we've seen with a lot of these other GMs brought up over this past year (and whose bad runs are conveniently ignored), Gute will get a chance to fix it.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Striker said:

Pacheco contributed because CEH, a first round pick, has been a bust and got injured. If we want to play the hindsight game that happens so often with Gute, KC also passed on Higgins, Pittman, Swift, and Jonathan Taylor to draft CEH.

Watson and Williams have been incredibly inconsistent all season. Very up and down. Good on them for doing what they needed to in the AFCG, but they could easily get roasted in the Super Bowl when KC isn't facing a team down 3 starting offensive linemen. Hell, the KC defense gave up the most passing touchdowns during the regular season. I'm pretty sure those kinds of results would get Gute shredded.

re: Hardman - He's basically MVS. But a second round pick. And, again, if we want to play the hindsight game KC passed on Metcalf, Diontae Johnson, and Terry McLaurin to pick him.

re: CEH part 2 - His numbers are comparable to AJ Dillon's, and CEH has been the started for almost all of the game's he's appeared in, has played in a better offense, and has been the lead back in a series of committees with underwhelming competition for snaps/targets.

And, again, Kelce and Jones have been there longer than the current GM. 

You realize all this and more could be done with the Packers picks?   The simple FACT is that KC has been getting much more out of their draft classes than GB has.    I wish it were not true, but it is undeniable.  That is why they are in the SB and the Packers had a losing record.

The 2020 and 2021 drafts were flat out bad.  You are holding out hope for GB players while labeling players that have contributed more for KC busts.  Is Dillon a bust?   His stats mirror Helaire's who you label a bust.

I get it.  You're a fan.  With a fans eye view making the judgements.

Still holding out hope for 2022.   There are players that showed promise that didnt get much time.  Watson looks like a good pick

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

52 minutes ago, hitnhope said:

You realize all this and more could be done with the Packers picks?   The simple FACT is that KC has been getting much more out of their draft classes than GB has.    I wish it were not true, but it is undeniable.  That is why they are in the SB and the Packers had a losing record.

The 2020 and 2021 drafts were flat out bad.  You are holding out hope for GB players while labeling players that have contributed more for KC busts.  Is Dillon a bust?   His stats mirror Helaire's who you label a bust.

I get it.  You're a fan.  With a fans eye view making the judgements.

Still holding out hope for 2022.   There are players that showed promise that didnt get much time.  Watson looks like a good pick

 

Actually, I'm someone who pays attention to the rest of the league instead of just cherry picking GMs/teams/players that I see on national games doing "better" than the Packers in this moment in time and then using it to criticize the GM.

I used Dillon as an example because you brought up CEH, a running back, as someone whose performance would "look pretty good compared to the poor play of a higher pick" such as Savage. Which, first off, you're comparing a RB and a S. Both of whom (Savage/CEH) had similar starts to their careers in terms of contribution to their respective roles on their teams before one (Savage) hit a wall and kept regressing (for whatever reason) while the other also started to fall in standing and has likely lost his job to a 7th round rookie. 

And while I see your attempted gotcha with Dillon/CEH, CEH:

-Is/was a starter.
-Never stood out in situations where he had the majority of the snaps AND in situations where he was in a time share with worse players than Aaron Jones for two years.
-Pacheco took his job in year three and still looked better than him despite sharing snaps with McKinnon.

One could also point out that if you throw PFF scores into the mix, Dillon was significantly better than CEH. And, as mentioned, he's playing with a far better RB than CEH has.

Regarding the listed hindsight players - obviously all of those players could have been picked by the Packers. You all have listed them multiple times. So then grade it out consistently instead of randomly deciding the KC picks are acceptable because...reasons...while dragging the Packers in similar spots. Either both teams failed or look at the context for both teams as to why they picked who they did when.

Also, maybe don't say that their performance would look "pretty good" compared to Savage when those performances are equal to players drafted after them (Dillon/MVS) who have been held up as reasons that Gute has failed.

Which gets to what I've come back to multiple times:

If you're going to make points, at least make them consistent and make them make sense. We saw it constantly during the entirety of the Thompson years (both the good and the bad) where "x" team or players gets elevated, folks criticize Thompson/Gute using that team/player as evidence why they failed, and then that team/player does worse (or the Packers player does better) and then folks move on to the next shiny object. And, of course, maybe add a little bit of context to the picks/players/etc.

Has Gute had bad drafts? Absolutely. Has Veach? Also yes. 

Also, calling either of those drafts "flat out bad" is just a bit of a stretch. For 2020, most of it hinges on what Love will do, but Dillon, Runyan, and Deguara are still in play. Garvin flashed a bit. Jake Hanson exists.

2021? Stokes was injured all year, Myers is fine (no, he's not all pro, but he's fine), Slaton flashed last year bit, and Jean-Charles, Newman, and McDuffie all exist. 

Great? Obviously not. Flat out bad? Come on. 

Edited by Striker
  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Striker said:

Has Gute had bad drafts? Absolutely. Has Veach? Also yes. 

Also, calling either of those drafts "flat out bad" is just a bit of a stretch. For 2020, most of it hinges on what Love will do, but Dillon, Runyan, and Deguara are still in play. Garvin flashed a bit. Jake Hanson also exists.

2021? Stokes was injured all year, Myers is fine (no, he's not all pro, but he's fine), Slaton flashed last year bit, and Jean-Charles, Newman, and McDuffie all exist. 

Great? Obviously not. Flat out bad? Come on.

2020 was a bad draft.   Runyan is a marginal starter being kind.  DeGuara is a very minimal contributor.  Love hasn't contributed anything through 3 years.  Jake Hansen isn't an NFL player.  Using him as a positive is humorous.

2021 = Stokes showed promise as a rookie.  Was playing poorly prior to injury not a positive sophomore jump that was expected.  Myers wasnt fine this year.  He wasn't very good and certainly didn't show expected improvement in year 2.  Slaton was a decent pick.   The rest are replacement level players and shouldn't be used to offset any real contributor in the discussion.

You say you watch the whole league, but fail to recognize that Gute's results are much more similar to the bad organizations that tread water at best and not the teams improving.

The only posiive I could give Gute over his leadership is that in year 1 he picked up some good free agents.   The 2022 draft appears to have more promise than earlier ones.   In total the team is getting worse and his management of the roster and salary cap along with key resources has been suspect being kind and poor if honest.  The Packers supposedly had a plan and threw it away to give AR that contract.   I dont think we will go anywhere until this entire leadership team is gone.   I hope I am wrong.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

pulled the GB and KC drafts from pro-football reference.  looking at the wAV (weighted approximate value) for the draft from 2018 -2022

 

GB  has a total of 284

                  284
Year Rnd Player Pick Pos To AP1 PB St wAV
2022 1 Quay Walker 22 LB 2022 0 0 0 7
2022 1 Devonte Wyatt 28 DT 2022 0 0 0 1
2022 2 Christian Watson 34 WR 2022 0 0 0 7
2022 3 Sean Rhyan 92 OL 2022 0 0 0 0
2022 4 Romeo Doubs 132 WR 2022 0 0 0 4
2022 4 Zach Tom 140 OL 2022 0 0 0 3
2022 5 Kingsley Enagbare 179 DE 2022 0 0 0 4
2022 7 Tariq Carpenter 228 DB 2022 0 0 0 1
2022 7 Jonathan Ford 234 DT   0 0 0  
2022 7 Rasheed Walker 249 OL 2022 0 0 0 0
2022 7 Samori Toure 258 WR 2022 0 0 0 1
2021 1 Eric Stokes 29 DB 2022 0 0 1 6
2021 2 Josh Myers 62 C 2022 0 0 0 12
2021 3 Amari Rodgers 85 WR 2022 0 0 0 2
2021 4 Royce Newman 142 G 2022 0 0 1 12
2021 5 Tedarrell Slaton 173 DL 2022 0 0 0 3
2021 5 Shemar Jean-Charles 178 DB 2022 0 0 0 1
2021 6 Cole Van Lanen 214 OL 2022 0 0 0 1
2021 6 Isaiah McDuffie 220 LB 2022 0 0 0 3
2021 7 Kylin Hill 256 RB 2022 0 0 0 0
2020 1 Jordan Love 26 QB 2022 0 0 0 3
2020 2 AJ Dillon 62 RB 2022 0 0 0 17
2020 3 Josiah Deguara 94 TE 2022 0 0 0 3
2020 5 Kamal Martin 175 LB 2021 0 0 0 4
2020 6 Jon Runyan Jr. 192 T 2022 0 0 1 18
2020 6 Jake Hanson 208 C 2022 0 0 0 1
2020 6 Simon Stepaniak 209 T   0 0 0  
2020 7 Vernon Scott 236 S 2021 0 0 0 1
2020 7 Jonathan Garvin 242 DE 2022 0 0 0 3
2019 1 Rashan Gary 12 LB 2022 0 0 1 15
2019 1 Darnell Savage Jr. 21 S 2022 0 0 3 19
2019 2 Elgton Jenkins 44 C 2022 0 1 2 29
2019 3 Jace Sternberger 75 TE 2020 0 0 0 1
2019 5 Kingsley Keke 150 DT 2021 0 0 1 9
2019 6 Ka'dar Hollman 185 CB 2020 0 0 0 1
2019 6 Dexter Williams 194 RB 2020 0 0 0 0
2019 7 Ty Summers 226 LB 2022 0 0 0 4
2018 1 Jaire Alexander 18 CB 2022 0 2 3 30
2018 2 Josh Jackson 45 CB 2022 0 0 0 8
2018 3 Oren Burks 88 ILB 2022 0 0 0 8
2018 4 J'Mon Moore 133 WR 2018 0 0 0 0
2018 5 Cole Madison 138 G   0 0 0  
2018 5 JK Scott 172 P 2022 0 0 0 7
2018 5 Marquez Valdes-Scantling 174 WR 2022 0 0 3 24
2018 6 Equanimeous St. Brown 207 WR 2022 0 0 1 8
2018 7 James Looney 232 DE 2018 0 0 0 0
2018 7 Hunter Bradley 239 LS 2022 0 0 0 3
2018 7 Kendall Donnerson 248 OLB   0 0 0  

 

KC has a total of 249

                  249
Year Rnd Player Pick Pos To AP1 PB St wAV
2022 1 Trent McDuffie 21 CB 2022 0 0 0 3
2022 1 George Karlaftis III 30 DE 2022 0 0 0 7
2022 2 Skyy Moore 54 WR 2022 0 0 0 2
2022 2 Bryan Cook 62 SAF 2022 0 0 0 1
2022 3 Leo Chenal 103 LB 2022 0 0 0 4
2022 4 Joshua Williams 135 CB 2022 0 0 0 2
2022 5 Darian Kinnard 145 T 2022 0 0 0 0
2022 7 Jaylen Watson 243 DB 2022 0 0 0 3
2022 7 Isiah Pacheco 251 RB 2022 0 0 0 7
2022 7 Nazeeh Johnson 259 SAF 2022 0 0 0 1
2021 2 Nick Bolton 58 LB 2022 0 0 1 13
2021 2 Creed Humphrey 63 OL 2022 0 1 1 22
2021 4 Joshua Kaindoh 144 DE 2021 0 0 0 0
2021 5 Noah Gray 162 TE 2022 0 0 0 3
2021 5 Cornell Powell 181 WR 2022 0 0 0 0
2021 6 Trey Smith 226 OL 2022 0 0 1 18
2020 1 Clyde Edwards-Helaire 32 RB 2022 0 0 1 15
2020 2 Willie Gay Jr. 63 LB 2022 0 0 2 14
2020 3 Lucas Niang 96 T 2022 0 0 0 7
2020 4 L'Jarius Sneed 138 S 2022 0 0 1 13
2020 5 Michael Danna 177 DE 2022 0 0 0 5
2020 7 Thakarius Keyes 237 CB 2021 0 0 0 1
2019 2 Mecole Hardman 56 WR 2022 0 1 0 22
2019 2 Juan Thornhill 63 S 2022 0 0 3 17
2019 3 Khalen Saunders 84 DT 2022 0 0 0 5
2019 6 Rashad Fenton 201 CB 2022 0 0 0 7
2019 6 Darwin Thompson 214 RB 2020 0 0 0 2
2019 7 Nick Allegretti 216 G 2022 0 0 1 10
2018 2 Breeland Speaks 46 DE 2018 0 0 0 3
2018 3 Derrick Nnadi 75 DT 2022 0 0 3 27
2018 3 Dorian O'Daniel 100 OLB 2021 0 0 0 5
2018 4 Armani Watts 124 S 2021 0 0 0 3
2018 6 Tremon Smith 196 WR 2022 0 0 0 6
2018 6 Kahlil McKenzie 198 DT 2021 0 0 0 1
  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Based on this they are saying that Savage was a better pick than Gary?

Newman and Myers are better picks than Stokes? 

I could go on but dont need to spend the time.  

I think PFF has outsmarted themselves with this metric.  Just because a player has started doesn't mean it is a good thing.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

35 minutes ago, hitnhope said:

2020 was a bad draft.   Runyan is a marginal starter being kind.  DeGuara is a very minimal contributor.  Love hasn't contributed anything through 3 years.  Jake Hansen isn't an NFL player.  Using him as a positive is humorous.

2021 = Stokes showed promise as a rookie.  Was playing poorly prior to injury not a positive sophomore jump that was expected.  Myers wasnt fine this year.  He wasn't very good and certainly didn't show expected improvement in year 2.  Slaton was a decent pick.   The rest are replacement level players and shouldn't be used to offset any real contributor in the discussion.

You say you watch the whole league, but fail to recognize that Gute's results are much more similar to the bad organizations that tread water at best and not the teams improving.

The only posiive I could give Gute over his leadership is that in year 1 he picked up some good free agents.   The 2022 draft appears to have more promise than earlier ones.   In total the team is getting worse and his management of the roster and salary cap along with key resources has been suspect being kind and poor if honest.  The Packers supposedly had a plan and threw it away to give AR that contract.   I dont think we will go anywhere until this entire leadership team is gone.   I hope I am wrong.

Runyan is a perfectly average guard as a sixth round pick (which you give plus grades for to KC's rookie CBs). 

Deguara doesn't do much on the stat sheet (again, H-back), but he's an important part of the running game and special teams. Is an H-Back a reach in the late third? Probably. 

Love's grade, much like Rodgers, will all hinge on what he does when/if he's the full time starter.

Hanson existing isn't a positive or negative endorsement. Just that he's still on the roster, though he likely won't be much longer. I also forgot to mention Vernon Scott, who also still exists.

Yes, Stokes had regressed this year. So had the rest of the defense. Hopefully he turns it around.

Myers was fine. Stuck in a muddled group of thoroughly "meh" centers you can live with but who needs to do better. And you can do better than him too.

And, if you've been paying attention, you'd see that I've laid out the draft results to at least one average to meh team and the numbers don't really align with your claim regarding draft results.

...and that Gute's results in the draft are also similar to other GMs that have been lauded here. Some who have had MUCH longer careers than Gute. And who have had streaks of real bad and streaks of real good.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 1/30/2023 at 1:04 PM, vegas492 said:

I feel like Mahomes is going to be near 100% but not 100%.  

Not sure about his wideouts.

Do know that their OL is better, but still not top tier.

And Philly's DL and EDGE guys are no joke.

I'll take the Eagles.  Better DL.  Much better OL.

Game will be won in the trenches.

So...reverse jinx anyone?

Back on topic:

Since they'll be indoors and not in the elements, Eagles speed at WR could really come into play. 

IMO the Eagles have advantages at almost every position except at QB,TE, and DT. And even with that, the Eagles OL is real good and it's going to be hard to see Chris Jones wreaking havoc. They've also done a good job at containing TEs, though Kelce is on a completely different planet than the others.

I'm 1-7 or something like that predicting against/for KC, but I'll still say PHI by a TD.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 hours ago, hitnhope said:

Look at the contribution from players with less than 3 years in the league vs. the contribution from Packers picks.   

You are very kind to Packers picks and downplaying the KC picks in your review.   KC drafted 2 CB's in late rounds last year who contributed more than our 2021 1st round rookie.

Having Mahomes work out certainly helps, but football is a team game.  The success is built on getting All pro's such as Creed Humphrey (after we pick in your vernacular a bust like Myers).  It rests on getting players like Pacheko in the 7th round.  Watson who made big plays at CB drafted in the 7th round last year.   Joshua Williams giving up 0 TD's after playing over 500 snaps at CB - a 4th round pick.

A contribution like the Chiefs get from Hardmann, or Helaire would look pretty good compared to the poor play of a higher pick such as Savage.

Don't downplay getting a Kelse in the 3rd, a Chris Jones in the 2nd.   This is what separates the franchises.   GB under Gute haven't found enough diamonds in the rough to be a long-term successful franchise.  Our talent base has been slowly eroding and people are still marveling at the couple good picks and ignoring the balance.

Jesus.  Can you read?  I called Jones and Mahomes generational talents.  I didn't downplay them.  Called Kelce (not Kelse) and Hill, "gold".

And I posted nothing about Packer draft picks.

Just pointed out that they flat out whiffed on multiple first round picks for years. 

Like you are drooling over their draft picks over time, like they are all great.  But if you look at their drafts, they are not great at drafting.  They hit on generational talent guys like Kelce, Hill and Jones outside of the first...and Mahomes in the first. 

The Chiefs win because of Mahomes.  Then Jones and Kelce.  But really, it's all about who is under center.

What I have seen from them this year is the offensive line.  Seems like they shored up a few positions over last year.

Also...ain't no one talking about how good Myers is versus Creed.  No one.  On a separate thread, I said that you can win with Myers.  But he isn't in the same conversation as Humphrey.

Funny that you bring up Pacheco.  He got reps because they busted hard on Clyde Edwards Helair, a former first round pick.

Had the Packers drafted him, he's either RB3 who gets no reps outside of injury reps, or he's on the PS.  Because GB hit on a mid round RB in Jones, who is elite, and in the second round with Dillon, who is a power RB.  Because GB drafted well, Pacheco would get no game reps.  Because KC drafted poorly there, Pacheko got reps.

Those corners you cite....they got PT because KC pretty much ignored drafting corners high for years.  None is 2021.  1 in 2020, 7th rounder who didn't make the team or play.  1 in 2019, 6th rounder who played in like 1 game.  0 in 2018.  0 in 2017.  1 in 2016, 3rd rounder, who started all of one game.

Again...had GB drafted those corners, this year, they aren't getting any PT over JA, Stokes or Douglas.

Edited by vegas492
Apologies as @Striker did a better job than this post did.
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 hours ago, hitnhope said:

Based on this they are saying that Savage was a better pick than Gary?

Newman and Myers are better picks than Stokes? 

I could go on but dont need to spend the time.  

I think PFF has outsmarted themselves with this metric.  Just because a player has started doesn't mean it is a good thing.

It's Pro Football Reference.  Not PFF.

Just say you don't understand it and won't take the 30 seconds to google it to find out that it is in fact, a real NFL metric.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 hours ago, Striker said:

Back on topic:

Since they'll be indoors and not in the elements, Eagles speed at WR could really come into play. 

IMO the Eagles have advantages at almost every position except at QB,TE, and DT. And even with that, the Eagles OL is real good and it's going to be hard to see Chris Jones wreaking havoc. They've also done a good job at containing TEs, though Kelce is on a completely different planet than the others.

I'm 1-7 or something like that predicting against/for KC, but I'll still say PHI by a TD.

I'm going to try to be logical here.  And we know that only a part of football is logic.

But we know that the game is won in the trenches.  While Chris Jones is the best DL in the game, the Eagles have Hargrave, Suh, Cox and Jordan Davis. 

On the OL, I feel like KC's line is better than it has been in the past, but....the Eagles line is better.

Trenches is a clear win for Philly.  And that is without talking about EDGE guys, where the Eagles come at you in waves.

Off ball linebackers don't do much for me.  I know the KC guys better by name, but that is it.

Secondary...I'll take Slay over anything the Chiefs have.

I feel like Andy Reid is the best coach in this game.  Mahomes is the better QB.  But Hurts and Sirianna aren't far behind.

Weaponz.  Maybe Kelce is the best offensive skill guy in the game.  But it is close between him and AJ Brown.  For secondary skill players?  Smith/Watkins/Goedert > MVS/Injured Ju Ju/ Injured Hardman>Injured Toney.

Running game.  I'll take the Eagles o-line and Hurts/Sanders/Scot over KCs line Pacheko/Mahomes/McKinnon.

Almost every way I look at it, Philly is the superior team.

Kicker.  I feel like both are good, but I'm thinking that the KC kicker has made more "clutch" kicks. 

But...it's Mahomes and Reid together that will make this one interesting.  And I do still like rooting for Mahomes.

 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...