Super Bowl LVII - Philadelphia vs Kansas City

[{Family Ghost}]

12 hours ago, hitnhope said:

The only posiive I could give Gute over his leadership is that in year 1 he picked up some good free agents.   The 2022 draft appears to have more promise than earlier ones.   In total the team is getting worse and his management of the roster and salary cap along with key resources has been suspect being kind and poor if honest.  The Packers supposedly had a plan and threw it away to give AR that contract.   I dont think we will go anywhere until this entire leadership team is gone.   I hope I am wrong.

I think they should be on the hot seat for sure, but I think if they make the move to Love they will get a grace period.  If they double down again and bring back #12 and miss the playoffs again they probably should all get pink slips.  

The 2022 draft looks really strong, but the organization slit their own throats when they traded Davante Adams away.  That trade is probably the main reason the Packers didn't make the playoffs.  It never made sense to have Rodgers without Adams.  They should have been tied at the hip until the Rodgers era ended.  They added Hammy Watkins instead of acquiring a legit veteran to the mix.  There were major miscues made this past year.  

[Leader]

1 minute ago, {Family Ghost} said:

I think they should be on the hot seat for sure, but I think if they make the move to Love they will get a grace period.  If they double down again and bring back #12 and miss the playoffs again they probably should all get pink slips.  

The 2022 draft looks really strong, but the organization slit their own throats when they traded Davante Adams away.  That trade is probably the main reason the Packers didn't make the playoffs.  It never made sense to have Rodgers without Adams.  They should have been tied at the hip until the Rodgers era ended.  They added Hammy Watkins instead of acquiring a legit veteran to the mix.  There were major miscues made this past year.  

Your theory leaves out a critical fact (or two) that we're dealing with still today:  simply trading AR's not possible "per se" because he continually plays the "I'm gonna retire" card.  That plus - Davante wanted out.
 

[vegas492]

29 minutes ago, {Family Ghost} said:

I think they should be on the hot seat for sure, but I think if they make the move to Love they will get a grace period.  If they double down again and bring back #12 and miss the playoffs again they probably should all get pink slips.  

The 2022 draft looks really strong, but the organization slit their own throats when they traded Davante Adams away.  That trade is probably the main reason the Packers didn't make the playoffs.  It never made sense to have Rodgers without Adams.  They should have been tied at the hip until the Rodgers era ended.  They added Hammy Watkins instead of acquiring a legit veteran to the mix.  There were major miscues made this past year.  

I just want to add this, to a post that I very much agree with.

The issue with Adams wasn't last year.  It was the year before, when he wanted a new deal in his lame duck season and didn't get the one he wanted.

If we were willing to pay him all that money, they should have done it the year prior, then all would be well.

Our off-season would have looked different for sure.  But in the end, if they were willing to do that deal, they should have done it when 'Vante wanted it a year earlier.

[hitnhope]

3 hours ago, vegas492 said:

It's Pro Football Reference.  Not PFF.

Just say you don't understand it and won't take the 30 seconds to google it to find out that it is in fact, a real NFL metric.

I did google it and only received hits for War.   We don't agree.   Simple as that.  Doesn't make either of us a bad person, or even wrong.   That needs to be played out.  I still call out the value of the metric. 

You think Gute is fine.  I think he is a failure, and we will go nowhere with him.  The next few years will prove who is correct.  I can live with that.  Doesn't mean I'm going to agree with people whose opinion do not match mine.

[Leader]

5 minutes ago, hitnhope said:

You think Gute is fine.  I think he is a failure, and we will go nowhere with him.  The next few years will prove who is correct. 

This is simply stupid. It discounts all the success the Packers have had....for some time.....because why? They lost multiple NFCCGs and didnt get to a SB?

Foolish.

[hitnhope]

14 minutes ago, Leader said:

This is simply stupid. It discounts all the success the Packers have had....for some time.....because why? They lost multiple NFCCGs and didnt get to a SB?

Foolish.

Are we going to go into name calling mode?   If so- Maybe you are too blind to recognize that the success was built off the TT regime of GM'ing and Gute has not maintained that same level of performance.  It has already and will continue to manifest itself in reduced talent in GB.  His first season he was able to sign key free agents due to the cap management during TT regime.  Are we as cap healthy under Gute? 

Why didn't the Packers get over the top in any of those championship games?   Gute did nothing for ST which cost us 2 seasons ago.  He has left major holes on the last few teams that can be overcome during the regular season but cost you wins in post season when the level of competition ramps up.  Do we need to start on discussing the AR contract?

I would suggest you are the foolish person in the mix.

[vegas492]

55 minutes ago, hitnhope said:

I did google it and only received hits for War.   We don't agree.   Simple as that.  Doesn't make either of us a bad person, or even wrong.   That needs to be played out.  I still call out the value of the metric. 

You think Gute is fine.  I think he is a failure, and we will go nowhere with him.  The next few years will prove who is correct.  I can live with that.  Doesn't mean I'm going to agree with people whose opinion do not match mine.

Odd, I googled it because I didn't know what it was either, and Pro Football Reference came up right away.  As did a few other sites.

Gute.  Yes.  I do feel he is fine.

But press me a little bit and see if I think we can win it all with him as GM.  Of that I am not sure.  Like there is wiggle room there.   Most of the wiggle room is due to Rodgers and having to pay him top end dollars while filing in the roster around him.

I'm not going to say he's drafted poorly.  He hasn't.  Also...I can't say he's been great either, and that is because the Jordan Love draft class is still kind of "meh" to me.  And...that could change if Love plays well.  If he plays at all.  I do feel like Gute isn't afraid of taking risks in the draft.  Some hit mightily, some do not.  But I like the risks.  Like JA...the trade and drafting a player that NONE of us here thought he would due to size.  Then there was Gary.  I don't know that he wasn't the riskiest player at the top of that draft.  Then the trade for Watson this year.  Say what you want....Gute will take some risks in the draft, for better or worse (Savage).

I do think Gute has done an exceptional job in free agency.  Except for 'Vante.  And that is a really big one.  I do wish he had offered more money to OBJ, maybe that tilts the equation our way.  

[vegas492]

41 minutes ago, hitnhope said:

Are we going to go into name calling mode?   If so- Maybe you are too blind to recognize that the success was built off the TT regime of GM'ing and Gute has not maintained that same level of performance.  It has already and will continue to manifest itself in reduced talent in GB.  His first season he was able to sign key free agents due to the cap management during TT regime.  Are we as cap healthy under Gute? 

Why didn't the Packers get over the top in any of those championship games?   Gute did nothing for ST which cost us 2 seasons ago.  He has left major holes on the last few teams that can be overcome during the regular season but cost you wins in post season when the level of competition ramps up.  Do we need to start on discussing the AR contract?

I would suggest you are the foolish person in the mix.

Man, I hate doing this, but I'll challenge you here.  And not personally.

Without me looking it up...did TT win 26 games regular season games in two years, consecutively?  

2005 to 2017...I'm looking now.  Maybe he did.  15-1 then 11-5.  Took him 8 years to do it.  Took Gute 4.

Gute's best 3 year stretch is 39 wins.  TT's best 3 year stretch is 36.  

Looks like Dorsey (KC) drafted Kelce.  (As well as helping GB draft Rodgers, Jennings, Matthews...etc.)  Veach drafted Mahomes and Hill.

Gute was able to sign free agents because TT failed pretty spectacularly in the draft at the end of his tenure.

TT is the one that never went "all in" with Rodgers.  He avoided free agency.  We all lamented that fact at the time.  TT had Rodgers in his prime and only got to one Super Bowl.   Gute got an aged Rodgers.

Oddly enough...both GM's inherited older QB's.  I threw KC in there because Veach didn't draft Kelce.

After doing the research....if you liked TT, you should like Gute.  If you didn't like TT, you shouldn't like Gute.  TT won a SB with Prime Rodgers.  First he had to get out from under Favre.  Maybe Gute needs to get out from Rodgers, move onto "his" QB and get a ring.

If that happens...first I'll be shocked.  But then the two GM careers will come full circle.  Which is kind of amazing.  So let's just do it already.  

[Striker]

12 minutes ago, vegas492 said:

Man, I hate doing this, but I'll challenge you here.  And not personally.

Without me looking it up...did TT win 26 games regular season games in two years, consecutively?  

2005 to 2017...I'm looking now.  Maybe he did.  15-1 then 11-5.  Took him 8 years to do it.  Took Gute 4.

Gute's best 3 year stretch is 39 wins.  TT's best 3 year stretch is 36.  

Looks like Dorsey (KC) drafted Kelce.  (As well as helping GB draft Rodgers, Jennings, Matthews...etc.)  Veach drafted Mahomes and Hill.

Gute was able to sign free agents because TT failed pretty spectacularly in the draft at the end of his tenure.

TT is the one that never went "all in" with Rodgers.  He avoided free agency.  We all lamented that fact at the time.  TT had Rodgers in his prime and only got to one Super Bowl.   Gute got an aged Rodgers.

Oddly enough...both GM's inherited older QB's.  I threw KC in there because Veach didn't draft Kelce.

After doing the research....if you liked TT, you should like Gute.  If you didn't like TT, you shouldn't like Gute.  TT won a SB with Prime Rodgers.  First he had to get out from under Favre.  Maybe Gute needs to get out from Rodgers, move onto "his" QB and get a ring.

If that happens...first I'll be shocked.  But then the two GM careers will come full circle.  Which is kind of amazing.  So let's just do it already.  

John Dorsey was actually fired after that draft, so they weren't Veach's picks.

[vegas492]

1 hour ago, Striker said:

John Dorsey was actually fired after that draft, so they weren't Veach's picks.

Wow.  That I did not know.  Further evidence against Veach, I guess.

But when I googled what GM drafted Patrick Mahomes, right away I get a quote from Andy Reid about Veach "finding" Mahomes.  Maybe Veach wasn't the GM but just a head scout or something at the time.

[Striker]

53 minutes ago, vegas492 said:

Wow.  That I did not know.  Further evidence against Veach, I guess.

But when I googled what GM drafted Patrick Mahomes, right away I get a quote from Andy Reid about Veach "finding" Mahomes.  Maybe Veach wasn't the GM but just a head scout or something at the time.

Veach was still employed by KC at the time. First as a Pro and college personnel analyst and then as the Co-Director of player personnel. But that could be really getting into the weeds of who did what considering Gute has been with the Packers since '98 in several different capacities.

[ThatJerkDave]

4 hours ago, hitnhope said:

I did google it and only received hits for War.   We don't agree.   Simple as that.  Doesn't make either of us a bad person, or even wrong.   That needs to be played out.  I still call out the value of the metric. 

You think Gute is fine.  I think he is a failure, and we will go nowhere with him.  The next few years will prove who is correct.  I can live with that.  Doesn't mean I'm going to agree with people whose opinion do not match mine.

Look at the numbers.  It is a pretty good valuation of the players' careers.  Here is just the Packers:

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/gnb/draft.htm

 

So far, Quay Walker is a 7 in value.  Whereas Rasheed Walker has a 0 so far.  If you sort by this metric, Aaron Rodgers has a 163 career value, the highest for a Packer draftee, by nearly 60 points.  It gives a pretty good, and unbiased evaluation of players, and takes into consideration the length of their careers as well.  It is not infallible by any means.  For example, Mark Brunell has a higher value than quite a few Hall of Famers.   But it is a useful tool to use when comparing similar players, or the contribution of a draft class.

[ThatJerkDave]

5 minutes ago, Striker said:

Veach was still employed by KC at the time. First as a Pro and college personnel analyst and then as the Co-Director of player personnel. But that could be really getting into the weeds of who did what considering Gute has been with the Packers since '98 in several different capacities.

It is like Mike McCarthy and Kellen Moore.  When it works, it was all Veach.  When it was a bad pick, that was obviously Dorsey's fault.  

[hitnhope]

4 hours ago, vegas492 said:

Man, I hate doing this, but I'll challenge you here.  And not personally.

Without me looking it up...did TT win 26 games regular season games in two years, consecutively?  

2005 to 2017...I'm looking now.  Maybe he did.  15-1 then 11-5.  Took him 8 years to do it.  Took Gute 4.

Gute's best 3 year stretch is 39 wins.  TT's best 3 year stretch is 36.  

Looks like Dorsey (KC) drafted Kelce.  (As well as helping GB draft Rodgers, Jennings, Matthews...etc.)  Veach drafted Mahomes and Hill.

Gute was able to sign free agents because TT failed pretty spectacularly in the draft at the end of his tenure.

TT is the one that never went "all in" with Rodgers.  He avoided free agency.  We all lamented that fact at the time.  TT had Rodgers in his prime and only got to one Super Bowl.   Gute got an aged Rodgers.

After doing the research....if you liked TT, you should like Gute.  If you didn't like TT, you shouldn't like Gute.  TT won a SB with Prime Rodgers.  First he had to get out from under Favre.  Maybe Gute needs to get out from Rodgers, move onto "his" QB and get a ring.

If that happens...first I'll be shocked.  But then the two GM careers will come full circle.  Which is kind of amazing.  So let's just do it already.  

I agree that TT had poor drafts at the end of his run.  He started drafting to fill holes rather than drafting to his board.  Prior to the last couple years, he was excellent.  What he didn't do was blow the cap while drafting poorly.

I don't think Gute is anything like TT.  Not in drafting, not in moving on from mistakes, not in building roster depth.  TT won a SB.  I honestly don't believe Gute has it in him to win one.

I do agree that it is time to move on from AR.  I just can't forgive that it wasn't done last year when we could have received a bunch of draft capitol, managed the cap better, and not let a player have control over the organization's future.  I don't believe TT would have ever let himself be in the position the Packers are right now.

[Leader]

Just now, hitnhope said:

I do agree that it is time to move on from AR.  I just can't forgive that it wasn't done last year when we could have received a bunch of draft capitol, managed the cap better, and not let a player have control over the organization's future.  I don't believe TT would have ever let himself be in the position the Packers are right now.

Interesting that we may actually move a guy that has control over our future.....after such a short time.