RUMOR: Vance Joseph to be let go?

[7DnBrnc53]

26 minutes ago, jolly red giant said:

Here is an off the wall thought -

Elway and Kubiak sat down at the end of last year - they decide that this team has too many holes to fix. They decide that the team needs to tank the season and get a shot at a QB but they don't want Kubiak to take the fall for a bad season. Kubiak 'retires' and Elway hires VJ. - then Elway brings Kubiak back into the organisation in a new capacity. As expected, the Broncos have a disaster of a season - Elway makes Joseph the scapegoat and sacks him. Kubiak comes back in as HC with a high draft pick and motivates the players to get the job done.

Am I being cynical or am I being cynical ?

Don't think that will happen, but if it does, Kubiak better improve his play calling. It wasn't too good when he was here.

[Scoundrel]

So serious question. If a team is coming off a tenure with a minority head coach do they have to still meet the Rooney rule for the next interview process?

[AnAngryAmerican]

Conselor - yes I believe so.

[Scoundrel]

1 minute ago, AnAngryAmerican said:

Conselor - yes I believe so.

I thought so. That could just delay our search if we move on from Vance. We should get a pass. 

[AnAngryAmerican]

8 hours ago, broncos67 said:

A couple names I think would merit watching:

Jim Harbaugh, Jim Schwartz, Dave Toub, Mike Smith, Matt LaFleur, Jim Bob Cooter, Teryl Austin, Steve Spagnuolo

I don’t think, just like after the McDisaster, they’ll go for another “hot coordinator” rookie HC after the way Vance has totally crapped the bed. That takes Toub, Austin and Cooter off the list. It will be someone with prior head coaching experience. 

I think the name to watch for is David Shaw. I don’t think Jim Harbaugh (even though it’s a hire I would love) would be in the cards either. Harbaugh is in a location where he has carte blanche at his almamater. And there are alpha males and then there are Jim Harbaugh and John Elway alpha males. Harbaugh (same with a Saban or even a Meyer) only go to the NFL if they get final-say authority. 

I just hope Elway can revert to 2011 Elway, hire the best coach of a large lot of candidates and go BPA at every pick. I also think we get an established QB in free agency or via a trade than roll the dice one of those first round rookies who all have some serious red flags. 

[elliot878]

8 minutes ago, AnAngryAmerican said:

I don’t think, just like after the McDisaster, they’ll go for another “hot coordinator” rookie HC after the way Vance has totally crapped the bed. That takes Toub, Austin and Cooter off the list. It will be someone with prior head coaching experience. 

I think the name to watch for is David Shaw. I don’t think Jim Harbaugh (even though it’s a hire I would love) would be in the cards either. Harbaugh is in a location where he has carte blanche at his almamater. And there are alpha males and then there are Jim Harbaugh and John Elway alpha males. Harbaugh (same with a Saban or even a Meyer) only go to the NFL if they get final-say authority. 

I just hope Elway can revert to 2011 Elway, hire the best coach of a large lot of candidates and go BPA at every pick. I also think we get an established QB in free agency or via a trade than roll the dice one of those first round rookies who all have some serious red flags. 

 

David Shaw would be a dream scenario, but hasn't he said a few years in a row now that he's not interested in leaving Stanford?  It's a shame that we picked the wrong "hot coordinator" because that's mostly the only way you reach the promised land or develop a dynasty.  Constantly recycled NFL head coaches are for the most part worthless.  They haven't figured it out, most likely won't, and the game is moving in a new direction that they're typically unwilling to adapt to. 

Teryl Austin has been the best candidate, imo, the last two times we've interviewed for head coaching candidates.  Not even sure he got an interview this last time around.

[AKRNA]

39 minutes ago, AnAngryAmerican said:

I don’t think, just like after the McDisaster, they’ll go for another “hot coordinator” rookie HC after the way Vance has totally crapped the bed. That takes Toub, Austin and Cooter off the list. It will be someone with prior head coaching experience. 

I think the name to watch for is David Shaw. I don’t think Jim Harbaugh (even though it’s a hire I would love) would be in the cards either. Harbaugh is in a location where he has carte blanche at his almamater. And there are alpha males and then there are Jim Harbaugh and John Elway alpha males. Harbaugh (same with a Saban or even a Meyer) only go to the NFL if they get final-say authority. 

I just hope Elway can revert to 2011 Elway, hire the best coach of a large lot of candidates and go BPA at every pick. I also think we get an established QB in free agency or via a trade than roll the dice one of those first round rookies who all have some serious red flags. 

If I remember correctly Brian Xanders was the GM in the 2011 draft, not Elway. Xanders left after that season and I seem to remember his scouting department left as well. 2012 and beyond are Elways, 2011 was not.

[thebestever6]

3 hours ago, AKRNA said:

If I remember correctly Brian Xanders was the GM in the 2011 draft, not Elway. Xanders left after that season and I seem to remember his scouting department left as well. 2012 and beyond are Elways, 2011 was not.

Very interesting if that's the case. It's interesting to know if the high pick made the 2011 draft or Having a competent gm did.

This off-season should be very interesting we have seen Elway adapt before coming off the 2013 Superbowl embarrassment I'd like to see him do it again. 

[1234567]

8 hours ago, paul-mac said:

I think there’s some weird atmosphere between Elway and the players (particularly the defense).

 

Between those weird rumors of him and Talib arguing at practise on Thursday, Chris Harris basically admitting the defense quit on the team against the Eagles, Derek Wolfe and (I think) Shane Ray’s adverse comments about the commissioner, Brandon Marshall’s twitter account and the defense literally mailing it in yesterday. I’m not sure if it’s the anthem thing, or the defense has finally got tired of carrying the offense and special team, or something else. I think Elway has lost the confidence of the players.

Wouldn't shock me. Let's review:

1) He ditched Wade Phillips to save a buck.

2) He ditched Ward 5 minutes before the season started (probably due to injury/performance concerns); but it looked like he did it to save a buck. 

3) He did essentially nothing to prepare for the departure of Peyton Manning and the realization that Oz wasn't gonna be the guy. 

4) He did all of this after SEVERAL key defenders took hometown discounts to stay here with a commitment to excellence being the main factors why. 

So yeah.. If I was on that defense, I'd be pissed. Like super, borderline "I'm not gonna play for this prick anymore" kinda pissed. How Elway handles this offseason is going to be a really big deal in terms of his long term success with this team. 

And I hate to say it, but at this point I could see Von Miller requesting a trade after the season. Call it a weird gut feeling, but there's been something really off about his demeanor/body language all season. He really doesn't seem like he wants to be here anymore. Neither does Talib. And with the historical friction between them and Elway, I also wouldn't be shocked to see Denver pull the trigger on it. 

[big_palooka]

6 hours ago, 1234567 said:

3) He did essentially nothing to prepare for the departure of Peyton Manning and the realization that Oz wasn't gonna be the guy.  

He traded up to draft Paxton Lynch in the first round. So he attempted to draft their QBOTF, but by all accounts missed terribly.

That said, Lynch was seen as a guy who would take a couple years to develop having never played in a college offense. Is it worth being patient with him, or is he a bust? He looked miserable on Sunday.

[broncos67]

13 hours ago, AnAngryAmerican said:

I don’t think, just like after the McDisaster, they’ll go for another “hot coordinator” rookie HC after the way Vance has totally crapped the bed. That takes Toub, Austin and Cooter off the list. It will be someone with prior head coaching experience. 

I think the name to watch for is David Shaw. I don’t think Jim Harbaugh (even though it’s a hire I would love) would be in the cards either. Harbaugh is in a location where he has carte blanche at his almamater. And there are alpha males and then there are Jim Harbaugh and John Elway alpha males. Harbaugh (same with a Saban or even a Meyer) only go to the NFL if they get final-say authority. 

I just hope Elway can revert to 2011 Elway, hire the best coach of a large lot of candidates and go BPA at every pick. I also think we get an established QB in free agency or via a trade than roll the dice one of those first round rookies who all have some serious red flags. 

But isn't it possible we just keep picking the wrong "hot coordinator?" Are you telling me you wouldn't want Sean McVay as the HC of this team after how he's turned around the Rams? You wouldn't want Dan Quinn as the HC of this team after his SB appearance last year? Anthony Lynn has the chargers playing well. Another "hot coordinator." Sean McDermott isn't having an awful season. Doug Pederson seems to be doing half decent. 

Maybe, instead of bashing these guys, we should be looking inward at why we're not successful. Because there's a hell of a lot of "young coordinators" around the league who seem to be doing pretty well. I know you're all bent out of shape about McDaniels, and now Joseph, but maybe that's not the whole issue. Just saying.

[broncos67]

8 hours ago, 1234567 said:

Wouldn't shock me. Let's review:

1) He ditched Wade Phillips to save a buck.

2) He ditched Ward 5 minutes before the season started (probably due to injury/performance concerns); but it looked like he did it to save a buck. 

3) He did essentially nothing to prepare for the departure of Peyton Manning and the realization that Oz wasn't gonna be the guy. 

4) He did all of this after SEVERAL key defenders took hometown discounts to stay here with a commitment to excellence being the main factors why. 

So yeah.. If I was on that defense, I'd be pissed. Like super, borderline "I'm not gonna play for this prick anymore" kinda pissed. How Elway handles this offseason is going to be a really big deal in terms of his long term success with this team. 

And I hate to say it, but at this point I could see Von Miller requesting a trade after the season. Call it a weird gut feeling, but there's been something really off about his demeanor/body language all season. He really doesn't seem like he wants to be here anymore. Neither does Talib. And with the historical friction between them and Elway, I also wouldn't be shocked to see Denver pull the trigger on it. 

I don't know if it's totally true, but I think Elway definitely struck a nerve with the whole "soft" comment. 

That said, I'll provide a semi rebuttal:

1) I think this is slightly overblown. I think we partially moved on from Wade because of Kubiak leaving, Wade's D took a step back, and it was a team in flux. Considering how god awful this season has gone, what would Wade have offered?

2) This is the criticism that gets me the most heated. TJ Ward was not good last year. He just wasn't. Liability in coverage, missed a lot of tackles, and struggled with injuries. We had a young group behind him who performed, and we let him go. Guess what? That's how the NFL works. Ward is currently injured and when he was healthy, he was in a timeshare in an AWFUL TB secondary. That move was savvy.

3) This is wrong. He drafted Oz to be Manning's successor. That alone is the first step. What else was he supposed to do? Oz was supposed to be successor, but Manning lasted longer than expected. But they won a SB, which they wouldn't have done without Brock. I guess I don't quite understand the revisionist stuff here because everyone was happy we weren't paying Brock that big money.

4) I don't think anyone took "hometown discounts"- I think Elway struck while the iron was hot on some of these guys, got them at a below market deal but assumed (correctly) they would continue an upward trajectory. I would actually argue that Elway has offered very few "bad contracts" in the $$$ sense. You could argue whether a guy like DT should have been paid by this team, but I think an argument about whether he was worth (and still is worth) his contract is a joke.

Von isn't requesting a trade. He said it himself, he's upset because he feels like he's in great shape and they're losing games. The reason the team is all bent out of shape is because for most of the time these guys were Broncos, they've been the #1 seed, in Superbowls, and winning titles. This is FAR from that reality.

[jolly red giant]

15 minutes ago, broncos67 said:

But isn't it possible we just keep picking the wrong "hot coordinator?" Are you telling me you wouldn't want Sean McVay as the HC of this team after how he's turned around the Rams? You wouldn't want Dan Quinn as the HC of this team after his SB appearance last year? Anthony Lynn has the chargers playing well. Another "hot coordinator." Sean McDermott isn't having an awful season. Doug Pederson seems to be doing half decent. 

This is precisely the problem - of all the HCs hired in the last year, Joseph has been by far and away the worst performing. 

Elway clearly zeroed in on VJ and never seemed to give any serious thought to hiring someone else - why?

Maybe because of Russell - maybe because he was doing the same thing hiring a HC as he was with players in the draft - reaching for his 'guy'.

Vance Joseph was the bottom of my list (of the three candidates given 'serious' consideration) for HC consistently - but he would also have been behind every other candidate hired in the past off-season. Elway needs to take off the blinkers.

[jolly red giant]

22 minutes ago, broncos67 said:

I don't know if it's totally true, but I think Elway definitely struck a nerve with the whole "soft" comment. 

That said, I'll provide a semi rebuttal:

1) It was also known that Wade wanted to move closer to his family

2) I agree about Ward - the only argument in favour of keeping him was his leadership and locker room presence - but he was a serious liability on the field.

3) Again I agree - he has tried to find the QB - he just hasn't done a good job of it.

4) Elway negotiated the contracts that suited the Broncos - yes the players may have taken less than they could have got elsewhere, but that doesn't mean that they necessarily did it to help the Broncos. I do think that the defence is p*ssed because they have been carrying the can for so long and Elway has not addressed any of the issues with the offence.

The last thing I would do is trade Von Miller - you don't trade your best player - we could never replace him. The only basis on which you could argue that it would be viable is if the Broncos got a staring caliber QB and a host of top draft picks. 

[Broncofan]

9 hours ago, 1234567 said:

Wouldn't shock me. Let's review:

1) He ditched Wade Phillips to save a buck.

2) He ditched Ward 5 minutes before the season started (probably due to injury/performance concerns); but it looked like he did it to save a buck. 

3) He did essentially nothing to prepare for the departure of Peyton Manning and the realization that Oz wasn't gonna be the guy. 

4) He did all of this after SEVERAL key defenders took hometown discounts to stay here with a commitment to excellence being the main factors why. 

So yeah.. If I was on that defense, I'd be pissed. Like super, borderline "I'm not gonna play for this prick anymore" kinda pissed. How Elway handles this offseason is going to be a really big deal in terms of his long term success with this team. 

And I hate to say it, but at this point I could see Von Miller requesting a trade after the season. Call it a weird gut feeling, but there's been something really off about his demeanor/body language all season. He really doesn't seem like he wants to be here anymore. Neither does Talib. And with the historical friction between them and Elway, I also wouldn't be shocked to see Denver pull the trigger on it. 

 

30 minutes ago, broncos67 said:

I don't know if it's totally true, but I think Elway definitely struck a nerve with the whole "soft" comment. 

That said, I'll provide a semi rebuttal:

1) I think this is slightly overblown. I think we partially moved on from Wade because of Kubiak leaving, Wade's D took a step back, and it was a team in flux. Considering how god awful this season has gone, what would Wade have offered?

2) This is the criticism that gets me the most heated. TJ Ward was not good last year. He just wasn't. Liability in coverage, missed a lot of tackles, and struggled with injuries. We had a young group behind him who performed, and we let him go. Guess what? That's how the NFL works. Ward is currently injured and when he was healthy, he was in a timeshare in an AWFUL TB secondary. That move was savvy.

3) This is wrong. He drafted Oz to be Manning's successor. That alone is the first step. What else was he supposed to do? Oz was supposed to be successor, but Manning lasted longer than expected. But they won a SB, which they wouldn't have done without Brock. I guess I don't quite understand the revisionist stuff here because everyone was happy we weren't paying Brock that big money.

4) I don't think anyone took "hometown discounts"- I think Elway struck while the iron was hot on some of these guys, got them at a below market deal but assumed (correctly) they would continue an upward trajectory. I would actually argue that Elway has offered very few "bad contracts" in the $$$ sense. You could argue whether a guy like DT should have been paid by this team, but I think an argument about whether he was worth (and still is worth) his contract is a joke.

Von isn't requesting a trade. He said it himself, he's upset because he feels like he's in great shape and they're losing games. The reason the team is all bent out of shape is because for most of the time these guys were Broncos, they've been the #1 seed, in Superbowls, and winning titles. This is FAR from that reality.

 

9 minutes ago, jolly red giant said:

1) It was also known that Wade wanted to move closer to his family

2) I agree about Ward - the only argument in favour of keeping him was his leadership and locker room presence - but he was a serious liability on the field.

3) Again I agree - he has tried to find the QB - he just hasn't done a good job of it.

4) Elway negotiated the contracts that suited the Broncos - yes the players may have taken less than they could have got elsewhere, but that doesn't mean that they necessarily did it to help the Broncos. I do think that the defence is p*ssed because they have been carrying the can for so long and Elway has not addressed any of the issues with the offence.

The last thing I would do is trade Von Miller - you don't trade your best player - we could never replace him. The only basis on which you could argue that it would be viable is if the Broncos got a staring caliber QB and a host of top draft picks. 

 

1.  The fact that Elway & Russell chose a D-minded guy clearly gets huge negative marks here.     I actually supported hiring an OC who would then leave Wade as DC - but Joe Woods hasn't been the issue - our lack of talent at ILB, interior pass rush are our D's big Achilles...and again, that's on the GM/talent acquisition side of things.

2.  TJ Ward can't even start for a bottom 5 pass D.  Let that sink in.  How he did it was wrong, but Elway absolutely made the right call here.   It's revisionist fiction to think otherwise.

3.   Elway's biggest downfall besides his Day 2 reaches (and of late, going need over true overall BPA last 3-4 drafts, starting with Sly), is his inability to correctly ID the QBOTF.  He's tried - just that he's failed miserably so far.  I'm not even talking about Siemian, he was never plan A - it was committing to Oz (the failed FA contract bailed him out), and then Lynch.   He gets 1 more swing at the plate, before the heat really starts (because let's face it, he's still got teflon-like security here, for now - he'd have to fail in his 3rd attempt at QBOTF for the heat to really stick to him).

4.   The only really team-friendly deals were Wolfe & Harris - but they were done well ahead of UFA that it was a decision made with their eyes wide open - trading security and guaranteed $ vs. injury risk of losing much, much more.   Marshall's deal was a slight discount - but as we already see, it's probably one that Marshall was smart to take - because he'd likely not have gotten the same $ if he played out the string last year and hit the market this past offseason.   

5.  Von's not going anywhere - he's already said as much.

I do think @broncos67 's Q is the better one - VJ's hire may not have been the right fit at all - but our FO is still the one who made that call.   We're the same FO that keeps missing on Day 2 picks since 2011....and we've been reaching for need at Rd 1 for 3-4 years running now, which might have been justifiable when were "1 player away" - but we're still doing it, when we're a shell of that team.   Does Elway see the entire big picture?  Because if he did, it goes beyond replacing VJ:

1.  Get the OC/HC combo that is instrumental at deciding who your QBOTF is. THAT is the one angle that justifies a one-and-done decision with VJ.

2.  Get a real college scouting director with actual power...so he can play devil's advocate and save Elway from his Day 2 reaches...and hopefully go back to overall BPA based drafting, especially in the early rounds.  

3.  Let Elway do what he's still great at - cap management, FA value finds, and yes, Day 3 draft gold.  He's still great there in all 3 aspects.  Let's not throw out the baby with the bathwater.