RUMOR: Vance Joseph to be let go?

[champ11]

This was laughable at the time and even better now. John lookin a lot like his good buddy. 

[Broncofan]

5 minutes ago, champ11 said:

This was laughable at the time and even better now. John lookin a lot like his good buddy. 

To be fair to Elway, that was in response to the rumors we were pursuing AJ McCarron for a 2018 2nd round pick - and CIN turned us down (LOOL, that's why I still say was a huge plant by the Cincinnati Bengals to our local media, although the Browns coaching staff bit on that later lol).   Imagine where we'd be giving up a top 5 2nd round pick (and no, I don't see McCarron as changing our fate this year)?  Horrific.

[champ11]

1 hour ago, broncos67 said:

I don't know if it's totally true, but I think Elway definitely struck a nerve with the whole "soft" comment. 

That said, I'll provide a semi rebuttal:

1) I think this is slightly overblown. I think we partially moved on from Wade because of Kubiak leaving, Wade's D took a step back, and it was a team in flux. Considering how god awful this season has gone, what would Wade have offered?

2) This is the criticism that gets me the most heated. TJ Ward was not good last year. He just wasn't. Liability in coverage, missed a lot of tackles, and struggled with injuries. We had a young group behind him who performed, and we let him go. Guess what? That's how the NFL works. Ward is currently injured and when he was healthy, he was in a timeshare in an AWFUL TB secondary. That move was savvy.

3) This is wrong. He drafted Oz to be Manning's successor. That alone is the first step. What else was he supposed to do? Oz was supposed to be successor, but Manning lasted longer than expected. But they won a SB, which they wouldn't have done without Brock. I guess I don't quite understand the revisionist stuff here because everyone was happy we weren't paying Brock that big money.

4) I don't think anyone took "hometown discounts"- I think Elway struck while the iron was hot on some of these guys, got them at a below market deal but assumed (correctly) they would continue an upward trajectory. I would actually argue that Elway has offered very few "bad contracts" in the $$$ sense. You could argue whether a guy like DT should have been paid by this team, but I think an argument about whether he was worth (and still is worth) his contract is a joke.

Von isn't requesting a trade. He said it himself, he's upset because he feels like he's in great shape and they're losing games. The reason the team is all bent out of shape is because for most of the time these guys were Broncos, they've been the #1 seed, in Superbowls, and winning titles. This is FAR from that reality.

Evaluated him correctly from watching him in practice for 3 years. It's actually quite embarrassing, IMO. 

[1234567]

4 hours ago, big_palooka said:

He traded up to draft Paxton Lynch in the first round. So he attempted to draft their QBOTF, but by all accounts missed terribly.

That said, Lynch was seen as a guy who would take a couple years to develop having never played in a college offense. Is it worth being patient with him, or is he a bust? He looked miserable on Sunday.

Honestly, I think he's got bust written all over him at this point. It's one thing to need some time to develop, but he's been here 1.5 years now and he still looks like he's never played football before. Zero pocket presence, hit or miss accuracy, zero grasp of the offense, zero progression from his rookie season. He actually looked better in the first pre-season game of his career than he does now, and that's not a good sign.

[1234567]

2 hours ago, broncos67 said:

I don't know if it's totally true, but I think Elway definitely struck a nerve with the whole "soft" comment. 

That said, I'll provide a semi rebuttal:

1) I think this is slightly overblown. I think we partially moved on from Wade because of Kubiak leaving, Wade's D took a step back, and it was a team in flux. Considering how god awful this season has gone, what would Wade have offered?

- I would agree that Wade's defense took a step back, however I think that was more due to the loss of Trevathan and Jackson vs anything he was doing schematically. I think he would have provided some much needed stability and motivation this year. It's hard for me to see that Defense just laying down and giving up on the season if Wade was still here. I could be wrong though.

2) This is the criticism that gets me the most heated. TJ Ward was not good last year. He just wasn't. Liability in coverage, missed a lot of tackles, and struggled with injuries. We had a young group behind him who performed, and we let him go. Guess what? That's how the NFL works. Ward is currently injured and when he was healthy, he was in a timeshare in an AWFUL TB secondary. That move was savvy.

- Totally agree that Ward was a liability. When some players lose a step in coverage, it happens fast. And he couldn't stay healthy. BUT.. the way it was done was really unprofessional and it just.. I don't know.. to me it came across as a slap in the face to everyone on that defense. 

3) This is wrong. He drafted Oz to be Manning's successor. That alone is the first step. What else was he supposed to do? Oz was supposed to be successor, but Manning lasted longer than expected. But they won a SB, which they wouldn't have done without Brock. I guess I don't quite understand the revisionist stuff here because everyone was happy we weren't paying Brock that big money.

- I was referring more to the situation post Brock. Once he left after Manning, it suddenly donned on everyone that we had NO ONE to play QB. It's like it never occurred to Elway that it might be a good idea to have some sort of a contingency plan in place in case Oz didn't work out. He then reached for a 1st round project qb, and has allowed a bunch of used car salesmen to compete for the single most important position on the field ever since. It's mind blowing to me. 

4) I don't think anyone took "hometown discounts"- I think Elway struck while the iron was hot on some of these guys, got them at a below market deal but assumed (correctly) they would continue an upward trajectory. I would actually argue that Elway has offered very few "bad contracts" in the $$$ sense. You could argue whether a guy like DT should have been paid by this team, but I think an argument about whether he was worth (and still is worth) his contract is a joke.

- To me Harris and Wolfe both took what I would consider hometown discounts. There's no way they wouldn't have landed much larger contracts if they had decided to hit the FA market. They had to have known that; Wolfe even hinted at this during an interview.

Von isn't requesting a trade. He said it himself, he's upset because he feels like he's in great shape and they're losing games. The reason the team is all bent out of shape is because for most of the time these guys were Broncos, they've been the #1 seed, in Superbowls, and winning titles. This is FAR from that reality.

- I hope you're correct. Von is easily the best player on this team, and I'd hate to see him go. 

 

[AKRNA]

3 hours ago, jolly red giant said:

This is precisely the problem - of all the HCs hired in the last year, Joseph has been by far and away the worst performing. 

Elway clearly zeroed in on VJ and never seemed to give any serious thought to hiring someone else - why?

Maybe because of Russell - maybe because he was doing the same thing hiring a HC as he was with players in the draft - reaching for his 'guy'.

Vance Joseph was the bottom of my list (of the three candidates given 'serious' consideration) for HC consistently - but he would also have been behind every other candidate hired in the past off-season. Elway needs to take off the blinkers.

I hear what you're saying, but how many of those guys would have let Elway pick their staffs? From the day he was signed I thought VJ was Elways perfect idea of a compliant HC.

[broncos67]

2 hours ago, champ11 said:

Evaluated him correctly from watching him in practice for 3 years. It's actually quite embarrassing, IMO. 

I'm not necessarily disputing that, but the notion that Elway hasn't given forethought to the QB position is a little bit off base. I think it's fair and completely accurate to say he's failed in identifying QB talent, but to say he's done nothing is wrong. Brock wasn't a great pick, but he did perform decently well for a limited amount of time and then wasn't worth the contract. We went out and got Sanchez with the thought being that he could bridge the gap as a relatively safe player until Lynch was ready (not uncommon in the NFL) but Siemian performed very well all things considered, and now here we are. It hasn't worked out the way you would expect, but we did TRY to address the position, we just failed. That's all I'm saying.

[thebestever6]

33 minutes ago, broncos67 said:

I'm not necessarily disputing that, but the notion that Elway hasn't given forethought to the QB position is a little bit off base. I think it's fair and completely accurate to say he's failed in identifying QB talent, but to say he's done nothing is wrong. Brock wasn't a great pick, but he did perform decently well for a limited amount of time and then wasn't worth the contract. We went out and got Sanchez with the thought being that he could bridge the gap as a relatively safe player until Lynch was ready (not uncommon in the NFL) but Siemian performed very well all things considered, and now here we are. It hasn't worked out the way you would expect, but we did TRY to address the position, we just failed. That's all I'm saying.

I think Elway has been too antsy to address the position most times you let the chips fall where they lay. We should of done it up to this point if that Happens we take Presscott in 2016 two rounds later and keep the 1st rounder. If we do that we may pass on Brock to get the best qb to back up Manning either Wilson or Cousins but Elway wanted the guy that was the rawest that had the highest ceiling. The guy who could absorb everything Manning was about which Brock did he just doesn't have the natural gifts to read a d.

This is the year he needs to be agressive with a top 10 pick. I hope history  doesn't  get to him. Either land one of the big 2 possibly in getting the best of the Browns like the drive, Taking a chance on Mayfield probably a better risk than Brock or Lynch. Or even drafting Lamar Jackson who has the mental makeup and there might  be better players for bpa.  But hes a guy that can give you top 10 to 15 qb production for a limited time frame 6 to 10 years maybe even 3 to 5 years of elite qb play with his running ability factored in. Thats not a bad top 10 pick.

I hope he doesn't go the free agent route with qb that will show he is just complacent with a competitive but not championship contending team.

[BroncoBruin]

The free agent route is the wrong way to go and I'm afraid that's what Elway is bound to pursue. I was intrigued by Brees in September. 8 New Orleans wins ago. No way he's leaving that franchise now. Cousins is just not worth the investment, that's a good way to ensure a string of 7-8 win seasons until 2022. 

[AnAngryAmerican]

19 hours ago, elliot878 said:

Constantly recycled NFL head coaches are for the most part worthless.  They haven't figured it out, most likely won't, and the game is moving in a new direction that they're typically unwilling to adapt to. 

I'm not so sure. Mike Shanahan and Gary Kubiak had some success here in their second-stints as HCs.

Same goes for Bill Belichick, Tom Coughlin, Pete Carroll and Tony Dungy. 

[AnAngryAmerican]

19 hours ago, AKRNA said:

If I remember correctly Brian Xanders was the GM in the 2011 draft, not Elway. Xanders left after that season and I seem to remember his scouting department left as well. 2012 and beyond are Elways, 2011 was not.

Brian Xanders, who was fired after the 2012 draft because he was a yes-man and spent more than a year unemployed before Detroit made him a glorified scout, was the GM in name-only. Elway was VP of Football Operations and had final-say authority. The 2011 draft, free agency period and decision to hire John Fox as HC, were all made by Elway. Xanders may have been in the room, but Elway has had final-say authority on all matters football related since Bowlen Ellis hired him to clean up the mess McDaniels made. 

[AnAngryAmerican]

6 hours ago, broncos67 said:

But isn't it possible we just keep picking the wrong "hot coordinator?" Are you telling me you wouldn't want Sean McVay as the HC of this team after how he's turned around the Rams? You wouldn't want Dan Quinn as the HC of this team after his SB appearance last year? Anthony Lynn has the chargers playing well. Another "hot coordinator." Sean McDermott isn't having an awful season. Doug Pederson seems to be doing half decent. 

Maybe, instead of bashing these guys, we should be looking inward at why we're not successful. Because there's a hell of a lot of "young coordinators" around the league who seem to be doing pretty well. I know you're all bent out of shape about McDaniels, and now Joseph, but maybe that's not the whole issue. Just saying.

I'm not saying I wouldn't consider going for another hot, young coordinator, I'm on record as having preferred both Kyle and Toub to Vance since last December. I think all the ones you've mentioned have had success. We didn't interview one of them, however. 

My point is that I don't think after getting burned by a rookie HC that we're going to go back to that same well. When a girl cheats on you and you break up, your next girl friend isn't a clone of the cheater. It's human nature. 

[broncos67]

47 minutes ago, AnAngryAmerican said:

I'm not saying I wouldn't consider going for another hot, young coordinator, I'm on record as having preferred both Kyle and Toub to Vance since last December. I think all the ones you've mentioned have had success. We didn't interview one of them, however. 

My point is that I don't think after getting burned by a rookie HC that we're going to go back to that same well. When a girl cheats on you and you break up, your next girl friend isn't a clone of the cheater. It's human nature. 

This is fair, and I do agree with you. My point is more that it's not the profile of the coach that's not working, it's the candidate themselves.

[broncos67]

1 hour ago, BroncoBruin said:

The free agent route is the wrong way to go and I'm afraid that's what Elway is bound to pursue. I was intrigued by Brees in September. 8 New Orleans wins ago. No way he's leaving that franchise now. Cousins is just not worth the investment, that's a good way to ensure a string of 7-8 win seasons until 2022. 

I agree with you. I do think Cousins is a hell of a player for what he's done in WAS, but at around $30MM/year, there's no way in hell. We wouldn't have any other talent on the team. I think Denver would be smarter to do the following:

Sign someone like Teddy Bridgewater or even Bradford to a 1-year prove it deal. It's as good as they could hope for in this environment, frankly. 

Draft a QB early.

We need both, IMO. A short term, capable stop gap like Teddy makes a lot of sense in the near term, and then you turn the reigns over. It's better than throwing someone to the wolves, unless it's Darnold, whom I believe can start competently from Day 1.

[paul-mac]

Elway needs to go right back to day one, pretend it's late 2010 and he's just been hired to turn a broken franchise around, armed with a top-5 draft pick and his free choice of head coaches (Including the option to keep Joseph but I don't want him to go down that route)

 

On that occasion he went for an experienced, defensive minded head coach that got the team playing mistake free football. Now, that coach was never going to elevate his team to world beaters and Elway arguably kept him a year too long, but in his first couple of seasons he did exactly what he needed to do. We've seen with both Fox himself and Jeff Fisher in their most recent coaching stops that this kind of guy really wear out their welcomes in the NFL so it's important to me that we find a guy with head coaching experience but also not TOO MUCH head coaching experience. A defensive minded guy who enjoyed moderate success in his first head coaching stop is what Elway should look for.

 

The standout guy that I can think of to this point is Tampa Bay Buccaneers Defensive Coordinator Mike Smith. Smith spent seven years as the Falcons head coach, making the playoffs four times. He couldn't win in January but that's not what we need right now.