2023: Offseason

[Ozzy]

13 minutes ago, Chiefer said:

I think he’s a ravens fan, and a big Orlando Brown stan

Maybe you should get out of Chiefs kingdom every once in awhile.  

 

[RedGold]

Yeah I could care less about LT/RT.   Regardless of where he plays we are, for sure, settled at 4 out of 5 spots.   I think we try him at LT first, but even if we slide him back to RT.   Mahomes is still going to be Mahomes with good play at 4 out of 5 spots.     

And I love his mentality of he’s going to do whatever the coaching staff asks of him.   

[Chiefer]

38 minutes ago, Ozzy said:

Maybe you should get out of Chiefs kingdom every once in awhile.  

 

I’m pretty regular everywhere else, I thought you were a Ravens fan because of your username and love of OB, but now I’m not to sure.

[Chiefer]

27 minutes ago, RedGold said:

Yeah I could care less about LT/RT.   Regardless of where he plays we are, for sure, settled at 4 out of 5 spots.   I think we try him at LT first, but even if we slide him back to RT.   Mahomes is still going to be Mahomes with good play at 4 out of 5 spots.     

And I love his mentality of he’s going to do whatever the coaching staff asks of him.   

Agreed I’m hopeful he can make the transition, but he’s shown out at RT so that’s at least a good backup plan. I think we draft a Tackle in the first regardless let ‘em battle it out. 

[onejayhawk]

On the general subject of LT, Tunsil signed an extension.
https://www.arrowheadpride.com/2023/3/19/23647204/chiefs-free-agency-2023-takeaways-brandin-cooks-trade-laremy-tunsil-extension

According to reports, Tunsil’s extension is for three years and $75 million, including a $30 million signing bonus, $50 million fully guaranteed and $60 million in total guarantees. With a contract worth $25 million per year, that makes Tunsil the league’s highest-paid tackle. This is good news for the Chiefs, who now have Taylor committed to four years at 20% below the top of the market. As long as Taylor performs at a high level (whether it is at left or right tackle) his contract will be a good deal. 

18 minutes ago, Chiefer said:

Agreed I’m hopeful he can make the transition, but he’s shown out at RT so that’s at least a good backup plan. I think we draft a Tackle in the first regardless let ‘em battle it out. 

I have quite a bit more confidence in this than some of you. Ultimately, any game is about finding the talent and developing the skillset. In this case we don't have a skillset of a man playing LT. However, we do have a skillset of a man pass blocking effectively. So, the task is not to create the skill from raw materials but move it too a new position and integrate it into the unit. In this, the coaches and teammates have the experience of Orlando Brown's move to draw upon. I think that they can get it done. 

In other news, the Texans traded Brandin Cook to the Cowboys. That means that Dallas is out of the WR market. 

Edited March 19, 2023 by onejayhawk

[RedGold]

16 minutes ago, Chiefer said:

Agreed I’m hopeful he can make the transition, but he’s shown out at RT so that’s at least a good backup plan. I think we draft a Tackle in the first regardless let ‘em battle it out. 

Yup this off-season has been pretty chalk in terms of what we need.  I anticipate us still looking at vet help at IDL and WR.   Maybe another vet DE post draft that wants to ride out their career. 
Setting up very nicely to go heavy DL/OL/WR up top, with just the need for package specific players immediately. 

[kingseanjohn]

23 minutes ago, RedGold said:

Yup this off-season has been pretty chalk in terms of what we need.  I anticipate us still looking at vet help at IDL and WR.   Maybe another vet DE post draft that wants to ride out their career. 
Setting up very nicely to go heavy DL/OL/WR up top, with just the need for package specific players immediately. 

Plus drafting potential replacements for next year's free agents. Luckily, the only expensive ones should be Jones and Sneed. As of today, this is what I'm thinking:

Extend: Jones, Sneed, Townsend, Danna, Winchester (though he's damn close to retirement)

Let walk: CEH, Herring, Johnson, Cochrane

Too early to say (health/price/production/etc): Tranquill, Edwards, Wharton, Tega Wanogho, Gay, Fortson, Buechele

 

That's just 2024 though. 2025 looks expensive (Bolton, Humphrey, and Smith primarily) and I don't see how we pay everyone. So we could draft some guys to eventually take over there.

[RedGold]

3 minutes ago, kingseanjohn said:

Plus drafting potential replacements for next year's free agents. Luckily, the only expensive ones should be Jones and Sneed. As of today, this is what I'm thinking:

Extend: Jones, Sneed, Townsend, Danna, Winchester (though he's damn close to retirement)

Let walk: CEH, Herring, Johnson, Cochrane

Too early to say (health/price/production/etc): Tranquill, Edwards, Wharton, Tega Wanogho, Gay, Fortson, Buechele

 

That's just 2024 though. 2025 looks expensive (Bolton, Humphrey, and Smith primarily) and I don't see how we pay everyone. So we could draft some guys to eventually take over there.

Yup, that’s kind of what I meant with this.   Come out of the draft with high end investments at;  2 DL(do not care between Edge/DT), OL, and WR.    After that start tackling RB, TE, LB, CB, Saf.    Would not mind another mid investment into Safety just as insurance to Justin Reid.   Would much rather make sure we lock Sneed up and have a combo of Cook/2023 Rookie at safety rolling into 2024. 

[TedLavie]

2 hours ago, RedGold said:

Yeah I could care less about LT/RT.   Regardless of where he plays we are, for sure, settled at 4 out of 5 spots.   I think we try him at LT first, but even if we slide him back to RT.   Mahomes is still going to be Mahomes with good play at 4 out of 5 spots.      

I do. It can't be argued that the market values a LT much more than a RT. And if we're committing 20M on Taylor to play RT, then we likely won't have the resources (whether that's cash or draft picks) to pursue a good LT.

If Taylor is Lane Johnsoneque I can get behind that. But we're an offseason away from him being in danger of losing his starting spot in JAX, so I have big big doubts on that question.

[RedGold]

17 minutes ago, TedLavie said:

I do. It can't be argued that the market values a LT much more than a RT. And if we're committing 20M on Taylor to play RT, then we likely won't have the resources (whether that's cash or draft picks) to pursue a good LT.

If Taylor is Lane Johnsoneque I can get behind that. But we're an offseason away from him being in danger of losing his starting spot in JAX, so I have big big doubts on that question.

That’s where the contract structure comes in for me.    Don’t get me wrong,  I wasn’t expecting Taylor.   But I get the upside. 
 

I think you try him at LT Year 1,   Still invest draft capital into OT.   If it doesn’t work out,  you can slide him over to RT year 2.   After that you can move on, if you need the allocate that cap space elsewhere.   I would much prefer that, than Brown’s contract of locking it in for basically all 4 years 

Edited March 19, 2023 by RedGold

[TedLavie]

1 minute ago, RedGold said:

That’s where the contract structure comes in for me.    Don’t get me wrong,  I wasn’t expecting Taylor.   But I get the upside. 
 

I think you try him at LT Year 1,   Still invest draft capital into OT.   If it doesn’t work out,  you can slide him over to RT year 2.   After that you can move on, if you need the allocate that cap space elsewhere.   I would much prefer that, than Brown’s contract of locking it in for basically all 4 years 

I don't. I know what I get from Brown (on the field at least). He might not be Laremy Tunsil, but he's still a good LT on both facets of the game, he's durable and we've seen him perform for us. I think there is little downside for the Bengals on this deal.

Taylor is a huge gamble we're locked on for two years (and even if we cut him in 2024, it's still 10mil of dead money). The fact that we have an out this early to me is a sign we've signed this deal ready for failure. Not a good sign to me.

Also I think the "worst case we kick him to RT" is nice and all, but are we sure he's that good of a RT to begin with? PFF has him as a below average RT (average as a pass blocker, awful as a run blocker) and this has been the description I've seen from Jags fans as well.

[RedGold]

11 minutes ago, TedLavie said:

I don't. I know what I get from Brown (on the field at least). He might not be Laremy Tunsil, but he's still a good LT on both facets of the game, he's durable and we've seen him perform for us. I think there is little downside for the Bengals on this deal.

Taylor is a huge gamble we're locked on for two years (and even if we cut him in 2024, it's still 10mil of dead money). The fact that we have an out this early to me is a sign we've signed this deal ready for failure. Not a good sign to me.

Also I think the "worst case we kick him to RT" is nice and all, but are we sure he's that good of a RT to begin with? PFF has him as a below average RT (average as a pass blocker, awful as a run blocker) and this has been the description I've seen from Jags fans as well.

I agree about the Bengals.  It can be a good move for them,  and also us.    The improvement this year is key,  and all of what I say regarding Taylor involves some trust in our FO.  Which I believe they have earned.   

Yes, we knew what we had with Brown and it’s possible we just didn’t want to move forward with it.   His stance on LT only is hard, what happens if we draft a guy that outproduces him at LT and he refuses to move.   I don’t like that mentality, nor locking in long term to a guy it’s very possible we can improve on.    With Taylor you have the flexibility to just draft who you feel is best and he is comfortable flipping over.   

[TedLavie]

8 minutes ago, RedGold said:

I agree about the Bengals.  It can be a good move for them,  and also us.    The improvement this year is key,  and all of what I say regarding Taylor involves some trust in our FO.  Which I believe they have earned.   

Yes, we knew what we had with Brown and it’s possible we just didn’t want to move forward with it.   His stance on LT only is hard, what happens if we draft a guy that outproduces him at LT and he refuses to move.   I don’t like that mentality, nor locking in long term to a guy it’s very possible we can improve on.    With Taylor you have the flexibility to just draft who you feel is best and he is comfortable flipping over.   

I understand trusting our FO, and their track record is really good. With that being said this deal reminds me of the Hitchens deal in that we're massively overpaying a player on flashes we're trying to project in a role he never occupied in his previous team. 

I also disagree on the Brown stance. First of, I 100% understand his stance of playing LT only - whether that's for the business side of it or for what it means for him personally. Also, I don't think we should aim at improving from an above average LT. If we have one, we should aim at keeping him. If by miracle we find someone in the draft that is a better LT than Brown - which is doubtful given how low we're picking - then we can either play that guy on the right or force Brown to play RT or trade him. But that's a rich man choice which I would be very happy to have. Now we need either Taylor to pan ou as LT or to find a guy that slides towards the bottom of the draft to be ready to play LT by next year. 

 

[RedGold]

7 minutes ago, TedLavie said:

I understand trusting our FO, and their track record is really good. With that being said this deal reminds me of the Hitchens deal in that we're massively overpaying a player on flashes we're trying to project in a role he never occupied in his previous team. 

I also disagree on the Brown stance. First of, I 100% understand his stance of playing LT only - whether that's for the business side of it or for what it means for him personally. Also, I don't think we should aim at improving from an above average LT. If we have one, we should aim at keeping him. If by miracle we find someone in the draft that is a better LT than Brown - which is doubtful given how low we're picking - then we can either play that guy on the right or force Brown to play RT or trade him. But that's a rich man choice which I would be very happy to have. Now we need either Taylor to pan ou as LT or to find a guy that slides towards the bottom of the draft to be ready to play LT by next year. 

 

It could very well turn into a Hitchens deal, but it fits the FO mold of signing middle aged FA’s they think still have room to grow.  
I also don’t hate Brown for his stance,  but it’s just a personal thing I don’t like,  if you’re getting paid you do what’s best for the team.   And one all the leaders on this buy into.  If it meant winning football games, Kelce would have no quarrels about sliding inside and blocking all game.  
I would say our biggest disagreement is on the strict importance of LT.   Even if we are forced to move him to RT,   That is 4/5 of the line that is playing average/good football.  This coaching staff is great enough, along with Mahomes to make the 1 starter not as noticeable.    
I just don’t buy into locking in decent money long term for a guy that isn’t producing at an elite level.  

I guess my argument isn’t so much that this deal can’t backfire,   It’s that I don’t think it was worth locking ourselves into Brown at LT for the foreseeable future 

 

[TedLavie]

12 minutes ago, RedGold said:

It could very well turn into a Hitchens deal, but it fits the FO mold of signing middle aged FA’s they think still have room to grow.  
I also don’t hate Brown for his stance,  but it’s just a personal thing I don’t like,  if you’re getting paid you do what’s best for the team.   And one all the leaders on this buy into.  If it meant winning football games, Kelce would have no quarrels about sliding inside and blocking all game.  
I would say our biggest disagreement is on the strict importance of LT.   Even if we are forced to move him to RT,   That is 4/5 of the line that is playing average/good football.  This coaching staff is great enough, along with Mahomes to make the 1 starter not as noticeable.    
I just don’t buy into locking in decent money long term for a guy that isn’t producing at an elite level.  

I guess my argument isn’t so much that this deal can’t backfire,   It’s that I don’t think it was worth locking ourselves into Brown at LT for the foreseeable future 

 

We will agree to disagree here. For me LT is the position on offense (save for QB of course) where we can't manufacture decent play with a scheme - at least without seriously limiting Mahomes ability to create plays - and where there's a massive dropoff between a top 10 guy at the position and a bottom 10 guy. I think Brown provided security there and, at 16mil a year, I'd have taken that security blanket.