pwny Posted November 27, 2017 Share Posted November 27, 2017 In 2003, the Baltimore Ravens drafted two players in the first round. At #10 overall, they selected future Rookie of the Year, 6 time Pro Powler, and one time Defensive Player of the Year Terrell Suggs. At #19 overall, they selected Kyle Boller. Prior to this draft, General Manager Ozzie Newsome had an impressive résumé. Completely rebuilding the team after the move from Cleveland to Baltimore, Newsome built what many believe to be the greatest defense of all time. He also brought a Super Bowl to Baltimore that same year, the first of two he would bring to the franchise. in 2006, three years after Boller was drafted, Ozzie traded a 4th round pick for Steve McNair, ending the Boller era for Baltimore. Ozzie’s case is an important one - as history indicates he is the only General Manager in NFL history to draft a Quarterback in the first round, not end up with a franchise QB, and then not be fired by the team. Ozzie’s career prior to drafting Boller includes winning a Super Bowl and drafting a litany of future Hall of Famers. He pulled the plug on Boller after three years and made sure to get a bridge QB capable of leading the team to the playoffs in year four. Dave Caldwell sits here, 5 years into his run with Jacksonville. He has stuck with Blake for 4 years and provided no competition or attempted in no way to upgrade the position. Prior to this season, he has zero playoff appearances and hadn’t even had a season with more than 5 wins under his belt until this year. This year, he has taken a defense and run game that are clearly of the ability to win a Super Bowl and hamstrung them with a middling QB situation that very likely will cost them any chance to make a significant run in the playoffs. With all of this in mind - should Dave Caldwell be fired come season end? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrenaline_Flux Posted November 27, 2017 Share Posted November 27, 2017 I don't think that he should be fired. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.Buzz Posted November 27, 2017 Share Posted November 27, 2017 41 minutes ago, Adrenaline_Flux said: I don't think that he should be fired. Yeah, I mean the guy has already been given a guy to answer to because of his miss on Blake in TC. He has found some good talent. Sure he's missed on guys and the 2013 draft was bad, but he's far from the only GM to do that. Just think with TC as "the guy" when it comes to football operations it'd be tough to find any great mind to come in and play 2nd fiddle anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pwny Posted November 27, 2017 Author Share Posted November 27, 2017 16 minutes ago, .Buzz said: Yeah, I mean the guy has already been given a guy to answer to But isn’t part of having to answer to someone being held accountable in the same way that all others have been held accountable? This would make Dave Caldwell the second GM in NFL history to not be fired for this mistake. Has he really done anything to justify not being held to the same standard as everyone else? Newsome brought a Super Bowl. That’s the justification for him staying. What has Dave done that justifies him staying? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.Buzz Posted November 27, 2017 Share Posted November 27, 2017 1 minute ago, iPwn said: But isn’t part of having to answer to someone being held accountable in the same way that all others have been held accountable? This would make Dave Caldwell the second GM in NFL history to not be fired for this mistake. Has he really done anything to justify not being held to the same standard as everyone else? Newsome brought a Super Bowl. That’s the justification for him staying. What has Dave done that justifies him staying? Yeah, but he also doesn't call the shots on the football side of things either. Sure, he has input and is still the GM, but the guy who makes all the decisions and has all final say is Coughlin after it was discovered that Caldwell missed on the QB. He may still have the title, but he doesn't have say over most everything like most GM's either. Mike Silver made that pretty clear several times over the offseason and back again when we decided against Kaepernick when it was obvious we had a QB problem and a lot of people linked him here saying Coughlin wants no part of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrenaline_Flux Posted November 27, 2017 Share Posted November 27, 2017 If Caldwell gets fired after the season, it will be because Coughlin has decided that they don't work well together. If Caldwell were going to be fired because of Bortles, I think that would have happened shortly after the Coughlin hire this past offseason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pwny Posted November 28, 2017 Author Share Posted November 28, 2017 31 minutes ago, .Buzz said: Yeah, but he also doesn't call the shots on the football side of things either. Sure, he has input and is still the GM, but the guy who makes all the decisions and has all final say is Coughlin after it was discovered that Caldwell missed on the QB. He may still have the title, but he doesn't have say over most everything like most GM's either. Mike Silver made that pretty clear several times over the offseason and back again when we decided against Kaepernick when it was obvious we had a QB problem and a lot of people linked him here saying Coughlin wants no part of it. Again though - no one has *remained with the team* following this mistake. Nobody got to take a demotion and stay. Nobody got any of the things that Dave would be getting if he gets to stay on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pwny Posted November 28, 2017 Author Share Posted November 28, 2017 21 minutes ago, Adrenaline_Flux said: If Caldwell were going to be fired because of Bortles, I think that would have happened shortly after the Coughlin hire this past offseason. If there was a decision completely made on Bortles not being the guy (which would have been the demarcation needed for Caldwell going), that would make sense. But I have a hard time believing that decision was set in stone when they extended the 5th year option and didn’t bring in any Free Agent or Rookie for competition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrenaline_Flux Posted November 28, 2017 Share Posted November 28, 2017 10 minutes ago, iPwn said: 35 minutes ago, Adrenaline_Flux said: If Caldwell were going to be fired because of Bortles, I think that would have happened shortly after the Coughlin hire this past offseason. If there was a decision completely made on Bortles not being the guy (which would have been the demarcation needed for Caldwell going), that would make sense. But I have a hard time believing that decision was set in stone when they extended the 5th year option and didn’t bring in any Free Agent or Rookie for competition. Perhaps, but Caldwell was already demoted for Bortles having not panned out up to that point. At this point, Bortles being the QB in 2017 is as much a Coughlin decision as it is anyone else's. It is hard to imagine Caldwell being let go specifically because of Bortles when 1) he has already been demoted due to him (and Gus) 2) we are having a successful season and 3) it wasn't his sole decision to keep Bortles and extend the 5th year option. I 100% believe that if Caldwell gets fired, it will be for reasons not currently known by us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pwny Posted November 28, 2017 Author Share Posted November 28, 2017 10 minutes ago, Adrenaline_Flux said: Perhaps, but Caldwell was already demoted for Bortles having not panned out up to that point. Was he demoted for this, or for the team being 15-49? 11 minutes ago, Adrenaline_Flux said: At this point, Bortles being the QB in 2017 is as much a Coughlin decision as it is anyone else's. Sure. But as I was saying, if this is the case; meaning that Coughlin signed off on Bortles being the starter for this season and extending the 5th year option, wouldn’t that mean the team outside of Caldwell hadn’t made a definitive decision on Bortles’ fate going forward, and therefore a definitive decision on Caldwell’s fate as of last offseason? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrenaline_Flux Posted November 28, 2017 Share Posted November 28, 2017 7 minutes ago, iPwn said: Was he demoted for this, or for the team being 15-49? Sure. But as I was saying, if this is the case; meaning that Coughlin signed off on Bortles being the starter for this season and extending the 5th year option, wouldn’t that mean the team outside of Caldwell hadn’t made a definitive decision on Bortles’ fate going forward, and therefore a definitive decision on Caldwell’s fate as of last offseason? To the first point - I still don't see then why the decision to get rid of him completely would be made after a successful season. As to the second, unless I've forgotten (100% possible, it has been a hectic year for me) there isn't a lot of information other than "Coughlin signed off on it" which can mean a lot of things and is clear by the notion that it did happen. I can buy there not being a definitive decision on Caldwell; that is why the only reason I could see him being let go is if it is decided that he does not mesh well with this regime. As for letting him go just because Bortles definitively is not the franchise guy... I just don't buy it. If he's let go, that and the 15-49 record prior to this season can be why he is not given another year to mesh here, but it won't be the reason he is actually let go. I think the same as I did when Bortles' option was picked up. We didn't like the FA or Draft options at QB in 2017, but wanted to cover our bases if Bortles did have a breakout 2017. I think they saw the potential 2018 options at QB as being much better than the 2017 options. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.Buzz Posted November 28, 2017 Share Posted November 28, 2017 15 minutes ago, iPwn said: Was he demoted for this, or for the team being 15-49? Sure. But as I was saying, if this is the case; meaning that Coughlin signed off on Bortles being the starter for this season and extending the 5th year option, wouldn’t that mean the team outside of Caldwell hadn’t made a definitive decision on Bortles’ fate going forward, and therefore a definitive decision on Caldwell’s fate as of last offseason? Considering all the reports coming out prior to him taking the job bashing Bortles and saying he isn't "the guy", nor does he like the way he plays? I highly doubt it tbh. Either way, if he wasn't fired after the first few years of terrible results while hiring arguably the worst HC of all time I don't think the chances are high that he is let go from going over .500/possibly making the playoffs. If he's fired, as Flux said, it's likely because they just don't work well together/have different views. Edit: Not to mention the FA options were that of Kaepernick (who we refused to sign), Fitzpatrick, Keenum (who has worked out but has been awful every other stop in his career), and a draft that was viewed as an awful class and one Coughlin may not have saw any in. The biggest upside play very well could have been viewed as Bortles unless they wanted to take a huge chance on a QB they didn't believe in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LinderFournette Posted November 28, 2017 Share Posted November 28, 2017 1 hour ago, .Buzz said: Considering all the reports coming out prior to him taking the job bashing Bortles and saying he isn't "the guy", nor does he like the way he plays? I highly doubt it tbh. Either way, if he wasn't fired after the first few years of terrible results while hiring arguably the worst HC of all time I don't think the chances are high that he is let go from going over .500/possibly making the playoffs. If he's fired, as Flux said, it's likely because they just don't work well together/have different views. Edit: Not to mention the FA options were that of Kaepernick (who we refused to sign), Fitzpatrick, Keenum (who has worked out but has been awful every other stop in his career), and a draft that was viewed as an awful class and one Coughlin may not have saw any in. The biggest upside play very well could have been viewed as Bortles unless they wanted to take a huge chance on a QB they didn't believe in. the only other logical play for us was to draft a guy like Watson and then maybe find some run game answer in this class somewhere. i liked Hunt and jones coming out. maybe we draft one of them but i dont think our team would be as good with watson as opposed to having fournette. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KhanYouDigIt Posted November 28, 2017 Share Posted November 28, 2017 9 minutes ago, LinderFournette said: but i dont think our team would be as good with watson as opposed to having fournette. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Its A Sabotage Posted November 28, 2017 Share Posted November 28, 2017 yes with gus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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