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The STL Cardinals Thread - Is It The Offseason Yet?


CWood21

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20 minutes ago, StLunatic88 said:

I have a HUGE problem with it. Who is Oli Marmol to be calling out anyone publicly?

He was a problem with in game management last year, and hes showing that he isnt a real leader now. He was a questionable hire as more of a yes man for Mo & Co than an actual manager, and hasnt done anything to make me feel any different to this point

He's the manager of the team, he has every right to call out the players. You can make an arguement there are a select few off-limites, which O'Neill is not. And we can all sit here and act like it was this public crucifiction, but it clearly was not. He answered a question that was proposed to him by the media, part of his job. He didn't go out of his way to bring it to light in the post-hame presser. 

I think you're being way too critical of Marmol way too soon. He had some issues with game management last year, but it was immensely better in his rookie season as a manager than what we saw with Schildt and Matheny over basically their entire tenure. He's not afraid to sit/pull a superstar because the numbers dicatate it, he's not afraid to move mainstays around in the order because it's needed. These are all positive traits IMO, as we never saw this previously. His biggest issue to me was the BP management, but that is one of the harder things in baseball to get right and there a highly regarded veteran manager in MLB who still have issues with this. 

I guess people don't remmber that TLR employed this strategy during his tenure. He would address guys publicly, but only after he had talked to them internally first. Guys always said they appreciated that aspect, that he would hold them accountable publicly, but that he came to them first and addressed it with them face/face first.  

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26 minutes ago, MOSteelers56 said:

Plus why is O'Neil getting sent there anyway? Weren't we down 4-1 with 2 outs? Also the RF has a rocket attached to his shoulder and TON is made of glass. Also the field was wet. Oli can be upset, but why not be upset about the coach who waived him in? Does Pop get publicly shamed, or does that happen internally? 

I would've sent him too. You're trying to get that imprtant run and create momentum. Tyler O'Neill also has great speed. Not Pop's fault he half assed it around the base just to play it safe. 

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3 hours ago, kgarrett12486 said:

He's the manager of the team, he has every right to call out the players. You can make an arguement there are a select few off-limites, which O'Neill is not. And we can all sit here and act like it was this public crucifiction, but it clearly was not. He answered a question that was proposed to him by the media, part of his job. He didn't go out of his way to bring it to light in the post-hame presser. 

So? If anything that makes it worse. His job is to protect the team, and he did the exact opposite here. It comes off more like he has an axe to grind with Tyler than anything else. That is nearly the universal conclusion on this situation ny every outlet. As pointed out, a good manager, who has his guys backs, would just say the diplomatic thing, and take care of it behind closed doors. Regardless of if they have had this conversation before (which no one can point to as far as Ive seen) you have now started a season, which alot of young guys on the team, by throwing one of those young guys under the bus, as someone who does not have the track record who can get away with something like that.

3 hours ago, kgarrett12486 said:

I think you're being way too critical of Marmol way too soon. He had some issues with game management last year, but it was immensely better in his rookie season as a manager than what we saw with Schildt and Matheny over basically their entire tenure. He's not afraid to sit/pull a superstar because the numbers dicatate it, he's not afraid to move mainstays around in the order because it's needed. These are all positive traits IMO, as we never saw this previously. His biggest issue to me was the BP management, but that is one of the harder things in baseball to get right and there a highly regarded veteran manager in MLB who still have issues with this. 

 

You are comparing him to possibly one of the WORST managers to ever be given the major league role (and I am dead serious in that, as someone who completely wasted 3 World Series contending teams) and another former Yes Man who stopped nodding along, only to get canned for it. At least he eard his way though the system. Just because he moved guys around, doesnt mean it was a good move, there is nothing we saw last year that suggests that. Did anyone "get better" or "get right" due to that approach? If we are being honest, the biggest thing a MLB Manager does these days is how they use their bullpen, and he has been atrocious at it thus far.

3 hours ago, kgarrett12486 said:

I guess people don't remmber that TLR employed this strategy during his tenure. He would address guys publicly, but only after he had talked to them internally first. Guys always said they appreciated that aspect, that he would hold them accountable publicly, but that he came to them first and addressed it with them face/face first.  

People absolutely remember this, and he was ripped for it. The only peole who "didnt have a problem with it" were the completely entrenched guys, the future Hall of Famers who knew that when he did this, it would never impact their playing time. It didnt work then, and it absolutely doesnt work now. Especially now. 

The team has looked completely flat since this all happened, causing everyone to be questioned about it. Is it a 100% causation? Who knows, but youre being naive if you dont think that it rattled the clubhouse. He better hope that the leaders (Goldy/Arenado) agree with this approach, which seems unlikely with the style of players that they are, or its just going to keep being an issue

Edited by StLunatic88
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58 minutes ago, StLunatic88 said:

So? If anything that makes it worse. His job is to protect the team, and he did the exact opposite here. It comes off more like he has an axe to grind with Tyler than anything else. That is nearly the universal conclusion on this situation ny every outlet. As pointed out, a good manager, who has his guys backs, would just say the diplomatic thing, and take care of it behind closed doors. Regardless of if they have had this conversation before (which no one can point to as far as Ive seen) you have now started a season, which alot of young guys on the team, by throwing one of those young guys under the bus, as someone who does not have the track record who can get away with something like that.

His job  is to protect the team as a whole and it's inegrity. It's not like a John Gibbons or Don Wakamatsu situation here, like it seems like you're trying to spin it as. You can still have a guys back and best interest, but call him out for a mistake, especially if it's a repeat offense. Maybe I'm jumping to a conclusion, but in hearing both of them talk on the incident it sure was a case to me that if you read between the lines of their comments it sure sounds as if they've had this conversation point before on both ends. O'Neill is not a young guy either, he's been here long enough now that he's in that core that is looked to for veteran leadereship, which is why I think Marmol went harder on him. If it was a Gorman, Walker, Nootbarr,  it may have been a different approach. One of the worst things about Schildt was his inability to ruffle any of the veterans feathers. He would defend them to a fault.

You are comparing him to possibly one of the WORST managers to ever be given the major league role (and I am dead serious in that, as someone who completely wasted 3 World Series contending teams) and another former Yes Man who stopped nodding along, only to get canned for it. At least he eard his way though the system. Just because he moved guys around, doesnt mean it was a good move, there is nothing we saw last year that suggests that. Did anyone "get better" or "get right" due to that approach? If we are being honest, the biggest thing a MLB Manager does these days is how they use their bullpen, and he has been atrocious at it thus far.

I'm comparing him to the last (2) managers of this club. While I don't disagree that Matheny's managerial style had been passed over by his time, he definetly was not the sole detrement to wh ythose teams didn't get over the hump. That group of players came up short numerous occasions in big moments. Schildt had his own set of issues like that I stated above and there was a clear disconnect in the message between him and his coaches (along with some of the players) at the end of his short tenure. Who cares if he 'earned' his way through the system. That narrative is so outddated. Give me the best candidate 10/10 times vs. a guy who has seniority.

Oli absolutely had some key moments last year in orchestrating some key pinch hits in particular that won us games, or playing the numbers and plugging in a guy that normally we wouldn't have seen play in that situation in the past over a vet and that guy having success. 

Managers in today's game, like you said have limited impact. He's definitely got work to do on managing the BP and the staff as a whole (He also wasn't afraid to go get a starter that didn't have it earlier than later. While that was refreshing, he also does it too often sometimes trying to protect the player instead of letting them gut through it for the team to save the innings). IMO, in looking around the league, there are really less than a handful of managers that know how to utilize the BP effectively on a conistsent basis. So it's not just him and he's far from atrocious, even in year 1. 

People absolutely remember this, and he was ripped for it. The only peole who "didnt have a problem with it" were the completely entrenched guys, the future Hall of Famers who knew that when he did this, it would never impact their playing time. It didnt work then, and it absolutely doesnt work now. Especially now. 

The team has looked completely flat since this all happened, causing everyone to be questioned about it. Is it a 100% causation? Who knows, but youre being naive if you dont think that it rattled the clubhouse. He better hope that the leaders (Goldy/Arenado) agree with this approach, which seems unlikely with the style of players that they are, or its just going to keep being an issue

That is flat out not true about just the entrenched stars being the guys that were okay with it under TLR. Anthony Reyes (who was anything but a star) specifically recanted this in his interviews after his career ended about how guys inside that locker-room including himself appreciated this aspect.

You're jumping to some pretty extreme conclusions here in thinking that incident is what caused this downturn in the play of this team. They played a clearly superior team at this point and time over a series and got it handed to them. It's baseball, it happens. If they go into Milwaukee and Colorado this week and look like this still, then yah maybe that correlation becomes more of a curiousity. I give it about a 5% chance that this incident caused a fraction in this clubhouse, but  if it comes out later that this incident did that, then we have the wrong guys on this team if that's all it's going to take to rattle them. 

 

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1 hour ago, kgarrett12486 said:

His job  is to protect the team as a whole and it's inegrity. It's not like a John Gibbons or Don Wakamatsu situation here, like it seems like you're trying to spin it as. You can still have a guys back and best interest, but call him out for a mistake, especially if it's a repeat offense. Maybe I'm jumping to a conclusion, but in hearing both of them talk on the incident it sure was a case to me that if you read between the lines of their comments it sure sounds as if they've had this conversation point before on both ends.

But Oli doubled down on it all, and basically every national medial outlet (pundits and players) all said he is in the wrong here.

I mean what is O'neill going to do? Get in a Media war with his manager? Marmol has to be WAY more diplomatic, and especially not double down, when it looked that bad to start with

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15 hours ago, StLunatic88 said:

But Oli doubled down on it all, and basically every national medial outlet (pundits and players) all said he is in the wrong here.

I mean what is O'neill going to do? Get in a Media war with his manager? Marmol has to be WAY more diplomatic, and especially not double down, when it looked that bad to start with

That's not what I've heard. It's about 60/40 split. 

Guess we're just on different midsets here with how it should've been handled, which is fine. We're clearly not the only ones. 

Edited by kgarrett12486
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“Don’t expect Walker to be Pujols. Nobody starts a career that awesomely.”

Walker casually goes out and ties Ted Williams for longest hot streak to start a career lmao

This is not a call out to anyone. Just pointing out how crazy Walker has looked. This kid’s a stud. 

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