The STL Cardinals Thread - New Season, Same Old Cardinals?

[StLunatic88]

On 10/3/2020 at 2:20 PM, holt_bruce81 said:

Has Mozeliak been fired yet?

This is why people dont like us as a fanbase. We are so spoiled

[holt_bruce81]

10 hours ago, StLunatic88 said:

This is why people dont like us as a fanbase. We are so spoiled

Sorry for voicing my frustration on a sports forum. I'll do better next time. I forgot Mozeliak has been really good at his job over the last 5 years. 

[StLunatic88]

17 hours ago, holt_bruce81 said:

Sorry for voicing my frustration on a sports forum. I'll do better next time. I forgot Mozeliak has been really good at his job over the last 5 years. 

You can voice whatever you want, but you should also be aware of what it looks like to everyone outside.

Literally the only thing worse than Cardinals fans acting like the BFIB are the Yankee "27 Rings" guys. 

You may be frustrated with Mo, but just remember this is what you are frustrated with;

In just the last Decade

• 7 Playoff Appearances
• 5 Championship Series
• 2 World Series
• 1 Championship
• 4 Division Titles
• 4 more 2nd place finishes in the division (other two were 3rd place)
• Five 90+ win seasons without a single sub 81 win season

Just about every team in the league would Kill for that, other than maybe a handful. Thats not even to mention that stat which was brought up in the playoff series, where we have had only like 16 games that didnt matter because we were still in playoff races all the way down to the last day most seasons.

I dont like some of the moves that Mo has made, his insistence that Bader is the best of the OF ClusterF we had is indefensible, but he has consistently put a contender on the field without ever having a Top 5 payroll, and most of the time not even a Top 10. That is his job, and we take if for granted way too often

Edited October 6, 2020 by StLunatic88

[ttitansfan4life]

21 hours ago, StLunatic88 said:

You can voice whatever you want, but you should also be aware of what it looks like to everyone outside.

Literally the only thing worse than Cardinals fans acting like the BFIB are the Yankee "27 Rings" guys. 

You may be frustrated with Mo, but just remember this is what you are frustrated with;

In just the last Decade

• 7 Playoff Appearances
• 5 Championship Series
• 2 World Series
• 1 Championship
• 4 Division Titles
• 4 more 2nd place finishes in the division (other two were 3rd place)
• Five 90+ win seasons without a single sub 81 win season

Just about every team in the league would Kill for that, other than maybe a handful. Thats not even to mention that stat which was brought up in the playoff series, where we have had only like 16 games that didnt matter because we were still in playoff races all the way down to the last day most seasons.

I dont like some of the moves that Mo has made, his insistence that Bader is the best of the OF ClusterF we had is indefensible, but he has consistently put a contender on the field without ever having a Top 5 payroll, and most of the time not even a Top 10. That is his job, and we take if for granted way too often

Why should Cardinal fans care what other fans think of us? Like why does that matter. I personally don’t give a ****. 

[tttmikeb]

On 10/3/2020 at 2:20 PM, holt_bruce81 said:

Has Mozeliak been fired yet?

As CWood noted, it's not gonna happen.  We fell short again, and have some major issues to address, but Mo will be the one to address them.

Improving the offense is obviously issue #1, and it's not even close.  The question is how to fix it.  We now Mo & the FO are heavily invested in a draft & develop strategy, and we've seen them invest more heavily in high-upside position players the last few years.  But we're still at least a year or two away from any of those guys (other than Carlson) contributing to the major league team.  Hopefully guys like Gorman & Walker can be the middle-of-the-order bats the FO thinks they can be.  But, how do we improve this offense in the short term?  It's unlikely we'll add significant salary.  Any trade targets or second-tier FA's you guys think would be realistic options for us?

[StLunatic88]

3 hours ago, ttitansfan4life said:

Why should Cardinal fans care what other fans think of us? Like why does that matter. I personally don’t give a ****. 

I mean I doubt you really believe that, but f so, then you can never complain when people call you out for BFIB stuff, you have to completely own it.

[StLunatic88]

3 hours ago, tttmikeb said:

Improving the offense is obviously issue #1, and it's not even close.  The question is how to fix it.  We now Mo & the FO are heavily invested in a draft & develop strategy, and we've seen them invest more heavily in high-upside position players the last few years.  But we're still at least a year or two away from any of those guys (other than Carlson) contributing to the major league team.  Hopefully guys like Gorman & Walker can be the middle-of-the-order bats the FO thinks they can be.  But, how do we improve this offense in the short term?  It's unlikely we'll add significant salary.  Any trade targets or second-tier FA's you guys think would be realistic options for us?

Well lets look at it from who is locked in

C - Could this be a spot for improvement? I personally dont think we let Yadi walk yet (for reasons Ive broken down before) but even if we do move on fro there, feels like it would be given to Knizner, and then a rotational veteran. so even if AK takes a 10% leap because of stability and consistent at-bats, hes only a bit of an upgrade over Molina this year

1B - Locked in with Goldschmidt for 4 more years

2B - Cant imagine we dont pick up Wongs option, going into 2022 might be up for question, but with his potential in his bat, his option is a must

SS - DeJong is one of the best deals in all of baseball for guys not on a rookie deal. He may be boring, but he is solid, and at a pretty high level

3B - Obviously a big question mark, although we still have $18.5m committed to Carpenter (cant just pretend thats not a factor), dont love giving a ton of money to any of the aging free agents , and I still think our connection to Arenado is real, do you try to swing a deal again? Or do you wait for his opt-out going into 2022?

OF/1 - We will just take each  of these slots one at a time; Lets just give this first one to Carlson and call it a day.

OF/2 - This one I think is still pretty locked in with Fowler. I wish we could just move on, but $16.5m is nothing to sneeze at. 

OF/3 - This is the spot that should be completely open, but we all know in reality it isnt. Id imagine that we have one of the "potential" guys here for 2021, but its atleast an opening that we could fill

DH - Im just guessing this is her to stay, and it is another opening we could use. Carpenter, Fowler, O'Neill, or even a re-signed Molina could be here, but its also the perfect spot to grab a one year, high upside option. 

So looking at that we have potentially like 2.5 spots open in the lineup. Doubt we fill them all from the outside, but atleast 1 bat could be added here;

Unless we unexpectedly swing for the fences with Realmuto, or Springer some how ends up out in the cold looking for a rebuilding year (like Ozuna, speaking of hes not an option) We are likely out of the biggest bats.

Could we look to move DeJong over to 3rd? Its never really been suggested, but with Semien, Didi, and Simmons (although he doesn't really help the offense) out there a year before one of the best looking SS classes ever hits the market, their deals may be a bit dampered with teams looking to 2022. And while looking at Infielders, Youve got LeMahieu, La Stella, Marwin and Turner who could all take over at 3rd, but feels like they will all get over paid there. And if we are going to drop the bag for a 3rd baseman, Id rather wait a year, take our shot at Nolan, with Kris Bryant also likely out there and 2 more guys probably trying to get out of the final Club Option year of their deals in Segar and Jose Ramirez. But if one of them comes cheap and on a short term deal Id be open to it. 

When it comes to the OF, do you really want to be in the Joc Pederson bidding war? For a platoon player? Sorry no thanks. Do you take a short term (likely one year) flyer with one of the old guys? (Kemp, Maybin, Joyce, Reddick) Maybe Gardner or Eaton get their Club options declined, but not likely. DO you give a couple year deal to one of the high upside guys? Jackie Bradley Jr., Villar, Pillar, Canha or Enrique Hernandez just to name a few. But is that really any better than just sticking with one of the potential guys we already have for much cheaper than those guys would be?

Personally I go try and grab a one year guy to play DH for us. Id shell out a pretty substantial one year deal for a guy like Nelson Cruz, or maybe even the injury risk Michael Brantley. If not one of those guys, Id be willing to roll the dice on Cespedes or Puig for one year as a DH.

Edited October 7, 2020 by StLunatic88

[holt_bruce81]

5 hours ago, StLunatic88 said:

Well lets look at it from who is locked in

C - Could this be a spot for improvement? I personally dont think we let Yadi walk yet (for reasons Ive broken down before) but even if we do move on fro there, feels like it would be given to Knizner, and then a rotational veteran. so even if AK takes a 10% leap because of stability and consistent at-bats, hes only a bit of an upgrade over Molina this year

1B - Locked in with Goldschmidt for 4 more years

2B - Cant imagine we dont pick up Wongs option, going into 2022 might be up for question, but with his potential in his bat, his option is a must

SS - DeJong is one of the best deals in all of baseball for guys not on a rookie deal. He may be boring, but he is solid, and at a pretty high level

3B - Obviously a big question mark, although we still have $18.5m committed to Carpenter (cant just pretend thats not a factor), dont love giving a ton of money to any of the aging free agents , and I still think our connection to Arenado is real, do you try to swing a deal again? Or do you wait for his opt-out going into 2022?

OF/1 - We will just take each  of these slots one at a time; Lets just give this first one to Carlson and call it a day.

OF/2 - This one I think is still pretty locked in with Fowler. I wish we could just move on, but $16.5m is nothing to sneeze at. 

OF/3 - This is the spot that should be completely open, but we all know in reality it isnt. Id imagine that we have one of the "potential" guys here for 2021, but its atleast an opening that we could fill

DH - Im just guessing this is her to stay, and it is another opening we could use. Carpenter, Fowler, O'Neill, or even a re-signed Molina could be here, but its also the perfect spot to grab a one year, high upside option. 

So looking at that we have potentially like 2.5 spots open in the lineup. Doubt we fill them all from the outside, but atleast 1 bat could be added here;

Unless we unexpectedly swing for the fences with Realmuto, or Springer some how ends up out in the cold looking for a rebuilding year (like Ozuna, speaking of hes not an option) We are likely out of the biggest bats.

Could we look to move DeJong over to 3rd? Its never really been suggested, but with Semien, Didi, and Simmons (although he doesn't really help the offense) out there a year before one of the best looking SS classes ever hits the market, their deals may be a bit dampered with teams looking to 2022. And while looking at Infielders, Youve got LeMahieu, La Stella, Marwin and Turner who could all take over at 3rd, but feels like they will all get over paid there. And if we are going to drop the bag for a 3rd baseman, Id rather wait a year, take our shot at Nolan, with Kris Bryant also likely out there and 2 more guys probably trying to get out of the final Club Option year of their deals in Segar and Jose Ramirez. But if one of them comes cheap and on a short term deal Id be open to it. 

When it comes to the OF, do you really want to be in the Joc Pederson bidding war? For a platoon player? Sorry no thanks. Do you take a short term (likely one year) flyer with one of the old guys? (Kemp, Maybin, Joyce, Reddick) Maybe Gardner or Eaton get their Club options declined, but not likely. DO you give a couple year deal to one of the high upside guys? Jackie Bradley Jr., Villar, Pillar, Canha or Enrique Hernandez just to name a few. But is that really any better than just sticking with one of the potential guys we already have for much cheaper than those guys would be?

Personally I go try and grab a one year guy to play DH for us. Id shell out a pretty substantial one year deal for a guy like Nelson Cruz, or maybe even the injury risk Michael Brantley. If not one of those guys, Id be willing to roll the dice on Cespedes or Puig for one year as a DH.

Michael Brantley and Nolan Arenado are the top two players on my list. I'm not sure what it would take to get Arenado in a Cardinals uniform, but I would start with some kind of Gorman-Liberatore-Helsley/O'Neil package. Also wouldn't mind seeing the Cardinals dip their feet in the International market. Not even sure who's available to be posted but the Cardinals seem to have some success bringing players over. 

[tttmikeb]

Thanks, guys.  Like others, I'd love to add Arenado but think it's highly unlikely.  And with our current roster & payroll issues, adding any significant piece is gonna be tough.

[StLunatic88]

3 hours ago, tttmikeb said:

Thanks, guys.  Like others, I'd love to add Arenado but think it's highly unlikely.  And with our current roster & payroll issues, adding any significant piece is gonna be tough.

I honestly think they lean on the "Covid" excuse and use the "Cardinal for Life" crutch to re-sign both Molina and Waino for one more year (basically taking up the same amount of money they are right now) to bridge the gap of 2021. I will continue to assume they are going to "punt" on next season while their bad contracts run out, until they prove otherwise. And now the absence of Hudson and the uncertainty of Mikolas makes this even more likely in my eyes. 

So if you call 2021 the farewell tour of Cardinal legends, Waino and Yadi, and they get somewhere in the neighborhood of the $25+ mil they made this year, then we would have over $100m coming off the books going into 2022 (especially if we also add a one year rental bat) with the Core of Goldschmidt, DeJong, Carlson and you may even throw Knizner in there. Your Starters of Flaherty, Mikolas, a returning Hudson and Reyes is a nice foundation as well. Plus you then have Gorman and Liberatore likely knocking on the door amongst other prospects.

So my prediction for 2021, as we sit here today, is they spend the money to keep Yadi and Waino. We run basically the same lineup back out there, but throw a bit of low risk cash at Puig for a 1 year deal with a player option for a 2nd year. And they call those "big moves"

[tttmikeb]

29 minutes ago, StLunatic88 said:

I honestly think they lean on the "Covid" excuse and use the "Cardinal for Life" crutch to re-sign both Molina and Waino for one more year (basically taking up the same amount of money they are right now) to bridge the gap of 2021. I will continue to assume they are going to "punt" on next season while their bad contracts run out, until they prove otherwise. And now the absence of Hudson and the uncertainty of Mikolas makes this even more likely in my eyes. 

So if you call 2021 the farewell tour of Cardinal legends, Waino and Yadi, and they get somewhere in the neighborhood of the $25+ mil they made this year, then we would have over $100m coming off the books going into 2022 (especially if we also add a one year rental bat) with the Core of Goldschmidt, DeJong, Carlson and you may even throw Knizner in there. Your Starters of Flaherty, Mikolas, a returning Hudson and Reyes is a nice foundation as well. Plus you then have Gorman and Liberatore likely knocking on the door amongst other prospects.

So my prediction for 2021, as we sit here today, is they spend the money to keep Yadi and Waino. We run basically the same lineup back out there, but throw a bit of low risk cash at Puig for a 1 year deal with a player option for a 2nd year. And they call those "big moves"

Yeah, with the situation being what it is, and with their track record being what it is, I think what you said is likely the plan for 2021.  I'd love to see Yadi & Waino back again.  They could add a corner OF bat on a reasonable 1-2 year deal to help the lineup, and sort of hold on through 2021, positiioning themselves to make some moves and do a soft reset for 2022 and beyond.  Not my favorite situation for 2021, but probably the most likely scenario.

[CWood21]

14 hours ago, tttmikeb said:

Thanks, guys.  Like others, I'd love to add Arenado but think it's highly unlikely.  And with our current roster & payroll issues, adding any significant piece is gonna be tough.

Agreed  At this point, I think the Arenado trade has passed.  The Cardinals have $122M in guaranteed salaries for 2021, and that doesn't include all those guys making peanuts.

[StLunatic88]

7 hours ago, CWood21 said:

Agreed  At this point, I think the Arenado trade has passed.  The Cardinals have $122M in guaranteed salaries for 2021, and that doesn't include all those guys making peanuts.

Well what they claim the impact of COVID will be is not yet known. But on a normal year to year basis we should be able to put out a team payroll of $150m+, with the ability to stretch into the $175m range for the right mix for a year or two. 

But that already locked in money is why I think we are now just looking to wait for Arenado to opt out after 2021 and make our run at him with all that freed up payroll (really only Goldschmidt, Mikolas and DeJong with committed dollars)

[kgarrett12486]

 Derrick Goold of the St. Louis Post-Dispatch reports that the Cards “are expected” to talk to second baseman Kolten Wong about a contract extension that would lessen the immediate cost of keeping him on the roster.

Wong, who turned 30 over the weekend, has just one year of control remaining, but that comes in the form of a non-guaranteed $12.5MM club option for next season. The option comes with a $1MM buyout, meaning there’s a net $11.5MM decision to be made when it comes to keeping the 2019 Gold Glover or cutting him loose.

[holt_bruce81]

19 minutes ago, kgarrett12486 said:

 Derrick Goold of the St. Louis Post-Dispatch reports that the Cards “are expected” to talk to second baseman Kolten Wong about a contract extension that would lessen the immediate cost of keeping him on the roster.

Wong, who turned 30 over the weekend, has just one year of control remaining, but that comes in the form of a non-guaranteed $12.5MM club option for next season. The option comes with a $1MM buyout, meaning there’s a net $11.5MM decision to be made when it comes to keeping the 2019 Gold Glover or cutting him loose.

Cardinals have historically never paid big bucks to their 2nd baseman pre-Wong era. I go back and forth on locking him up long term. Do we need to or could we slide Edman to 2nd base and get roughly the same amount of production and allocate the dollars elsewhere?