The STL Cardinals Thread - New Season, Same Old Cardinals?

[MOSteelers56]

18 hours ago, holt_bruce81 said:

Yup. 

 

2 hours ago, CWood21 said:

Absolutely.  And it's not because I think Benintendi is anything special.

Yep, what they said. I think the O'Neil experiment is juuuuust about over. He looks like a AAAA player. Masher in the minors, bad in the bigs. 

[StLunatic88]

4 hours ago, CWood21 said:

Absolutely.  And it's not because I think Benintendi is anything special.

I say no exactly because Benintendi isnt anything special. Not to say that O’Neill will be either, but AB puts us right back in the spot that we were previously in, more of the same guy up and down the lineup. 

Id reject the notion that TON has ever gotten close to enough consistent playing time to see what he can really be as a pro. And sure he might be at 4A player, but if he does put it together, he’s a bopper that we just don’t have in this lineup. 

Give me that all day long over just another shade of the same disappointment that we already are trying to squeeze into the lineup 

Edited February 12, 2021 by StLunatic88

[kgarrett12486]

On 2/12/2021 at 5:15 PM, StLunatic88 said:

I say no exactly because Benintendi isnt anything special. Not to say that O’Neill will be either, but AB puts us right back in the spot that we were previously in, more of the same guy up and down the lineup. 

Id reject the notion that TON has ever gotten close to enough consistent playing time to see what he can really be as a pro. And sure he might be at 4A player, but if he does put it together, he’s a bopper that we just don’t have in this lineup. 

Give me that all day long over just another shade of the same disappointment that we already are trying to squeeze into the lineup 

This is exactly why I brought this up, as I've heard Cards fans go both ways with O'Neill. Some think he's had his shots to claim the starting LF role over the last 3 seasons and run with it, but has either faltered or become injured. others think that 410 PA's (no matter the circumstances) is nowhere near enough to label him either way.

I'm not saying either is right/wrong, I just wanted to get thoughts on if a consensus to move him for a player of similar status/standing existed.

Love him or hate him, 2021 will be his last chance to prove what he can do at the plate (we all know he's already a pretty good OF and capable of playing all 3 spots).

[StLunatic88]

40 minutes ago, kgarrett12486 said:

Love him or hate him, 2021 will be his last chance to prove what he can do at the plate (we all know he's already a pretty good OF and capable of playing all 3 spots).

I agree with that. My biggest thing is lineup construction. For too long we were up and down line drive hitters. And because of that no one in the lineup ever scared opposing pitchers, even when that player or even someone coming up in the order we’re hot. Because they could always limit the damage. 

Ozuna offered that, but we got some of his least productive years, so we couldn’t take advantage. TON also offers that, and I’d rather take that risk on him, than another average to above average hitter that no one is afraid to pitch to.

Gorman also offers that, which is why I’d like to see him get the shot in LF next year if O’Neill can’t. And if they do change corse before the season, and we get a DH, wouldn’t hate seeing Luken Baker get a shot at some point. 

[StLunatic88]

I mentioned Gorman to 2B in a throw away, hope this could work, line awhile ago. If he is serious about it, and Jose/Stubby believe in his ability to be atleast average there, it could be huge for the lineup. 

I wouldn’t bank on it for 2021, he still needs to prove his bat can make the jump, but this would be huge for the future. Assuming we keep NA, 3rd is locked up, and he would just be adding more congestion to the OF if he had to go to Left as I just said above. 

Here’s hoping he could be a Mid/Late season batt addition at 2B

[CWood21]

On 2/16/2021 at 4:18 PM, StLunatic88 said:

I agree with that. My biggest thing is lineup construction. For too long we were up and down line drive hitters. And because of that no one in the lineup ever scared opposing pitchers, even when that player or even someone coming up in the order we’re hot. Because they could always limit the damage. 

Ozuna offered that, but we got some of his least productive years, so we couldn’t take advantage. TON also offers that, and I’d rather take that risk on him, than another average to above average hitter that no one is afraid to pitch to.

Gorman also offers that, which is why I’d like to see him get the shot in LF next year if O’Neill can’t. And if they do change corse before the season, and we get a DH, wouldn’t hate seeing Luken Baker get a shot at some point. 

What is O'Neill's upside?  You're probably seeing something akin to what he posted 2018 but over the course of a full season you're probably talking about a ~3 WAR player.  Legitimately here, that's his upside.  He's got to consistently be able to tap into that power in order to be a legitimate player.  And that's ignoring the fact that his ISO plummeted the last two seasons.  Benintendi is/was the safer bet.  If you want upside, go with O'Neill.  I'm just not really wanting a potential negative in the lineup.

[StLunatic88]

2 hours ago, CWood21 said:

What is O'Neill's upside?  You're probably seeing something akin to what he posted 2018 but over the course of a full season you're probably talking about a ~3 WAR player.  Legitimately here, that's his upside.  He's got to consistently be able to tap into that power in order to be a legitimate player.  And that's ignoring the fact that his ISO plummeted the last two seasons.  Benintendi is/was the safer bet.  If you want upside, go with O'Neill.  I'm just not really wanting a potential negative in the lineup.

His upside is a .260 Avg/.340 OBP hitter who can put out 30-40 HRs as a 5/6 hole hitter. We don’t have anything else like that on the roster and Benintendi is nothing like that. That is a guy pitchers would be worried about having to face with runners on, because one mistake to him means a 3 run swing, not just a single through the hole that maybe scores one run and then they can take on the bottom of the order to get out of a jam. Which not only gets him better pitches later in counts when guys are on, but mostly gets our best hitters (now Arenado/Goldy) to see better pitches.

You can stare at all the advanced numbers you want, I’m talking about what an opposing pitcher has to go through against our lineup. And let’s also be honest about the chance that O’Neill (and really any OF not named Bader) has gotten. He doesn’t even have 500 Plate Appearances (only 450, and just over 400 recorded At Bats) in 3* years. And those have mostly come in very sporadic stints.

Im not saying we have to lock him into a deal, or that LF is his spot. But I’d rather give him the chance to show if he can be that type of hitter (without messing with playing time) to start this year, and then if he’s not you can just move on. Or more likely with his good defense, he can be a super utility OF and big bat off the bench because he still hasn’t hit his first year of Arbitration, while AB is already costing $6m and has only one more year of team control after 2021. 

But sure, let’s keep giving up on guys too soon, thats been working out with our OF prospects recently. 

Edited February 18, 2021 by StLunatic88

[CWood21]

On 2/18/2021 at 2:22 PM, StLunatic88 said:

His upside is a .260 Avg/.340 OBP hitter who can put out 30-40 HRs as a 5/6 hole hitter. We don’t have anything else like that on the roster and Benintendi is nothing like that. That is a guy pitchers would be worried about having to face with runners on, because one mistake to him means a 3 run swing, not just a single through the hole that maybe scores one run and then they can take on the bottom of the order to get out of a jam. Which not only gets him better pitches later in counts when guys are on, but mostly gets our best hitters (now Arenado/Goldy) to see better pitches.

And that's his upside.  What's his floor?  He's a guy who will struggle to create enough contact to consistently tap into that power.  I like him, but given the current roster composition I'm not sure I want to hang on him developing.  Benitendi is the ideal #2 hitter for me with the Cardinals' current roster.  You're offering that speed/power combination ahead of Goldy and Arenado.

[StLunatic88]

57 minutes ago, CWood21 said:

And that's his upside.  What's his floor?  He's a guy who will struggle to create enough contact to consistently tap into that power.  I like him, but given the current roster composition I'm not sure I want to hang on him developing.  Benitendi is the ideal #2 hitter for me with the Cardinals' current roster.  You're offering that speed/power combination ahead of Goldy and Arenado.

We’ve already got that potential #2 guy in Carlson. Because that’s all the current version of Benintendi is now, potentially that guy from 17-18, you aren’t guaranteed anything close to that

[CWood21]

2 minutes ago, StLunatic88 said:

We’ve already got that potential #2 guy in Carlson. Because that’s all the current version of Benintendi is now, potentially that guy from 17-18, you aren’t guaranteed anything close to that

I really, really like him in that 5th spot.  Think DeJong moves down to that 6 spot, and you're going to be hard pressed to beat a 3/4/5/6 like that.  Just want someone in that 2 hole that gets on base with some surprising power.

[StLunatic88]

2 hours ago, CWood21 said:

I really, really like him in that 5th spot.  Think DeJong moves down to that 6 spot, and you're going to be hard pressed to beat a 3/4/5/6 like that.  Just want someone in that 2 hole that gets on base with some surprising power.

You think Yadi is going to acquiesce being dropped into the 7th spot? Not sure I see that happening

[kgarrett12486]

Schildt was asked about possibility of Matt Carp playing LF this season.

Schildt shot it down quick saying it won't happen. Glad to hear it. Confirms we're gonna see O'Neil and Thomas get a legit look.

[StLunatic88]

45 minutes ago, kgarrett12486 said:

Confirms we're gonna see O'Neil and Thomas get a legit look.

Apparently they really like what they were seeing from Justin WIlliams in their satellite camp last year.

And I was also surprised to see how much Keith Law likes John Torres.

I’d imagine all actual OF prospects are on the table for this season.

[kgarrett12486]

2 hours ago, StLunatic88 said:

Apparently they really like what they were seeing from Justin WIlliams in their satellite camp last year.

And I was also surprised to see how much Keith Law likes John Torres.

I’d imagine all actual OF prospects are on the table for this season.

No doubt, should've included Justin Williams, as he's potentially out of options (depends on clarification regarding eligibility and 2020 MIL season).

I'd think Torres is still further away, especially after not getting the MIL time last Year. I'm so glad we kept him though in the Arenado trade (he was rumored piece). He's the most legit 5 tool guy we've had since OT.  

[CWood21]

6 hours ago, kgarrett12486 said:

Schildt was asked about possibility of Matt Carp playing LF this season.

Schildt shot it down quick saying it won't happen. Glad to hear it. Confirms we're gonna see O'Neil and Thomas get a legit look.

I mean, that body wasn't very good to begin with.  Not sure it's going to be better, at what his age 37 season?  He's a 3B/1B/DH at this point in his career.