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The STL Cardinals Thread - Is It The Offseason Yet?


CWood21

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On 9/4/2019 at 10:16 PM, kgarrett12486 said:

- Don't see Fowler being dealt.

In the end you are probably right. I acknowledged as much, its really just how I would go about it. But a couple of things, First I think the idea that he is just handed the Leadoff spot next year is bad precedence. Again you are probably correct, but Kolten should be getting every chance to be that guy. And Two, I think the Giants see themselves as still going for it, and with basically the same team that is still kinda in the hunt for the WC, plus an upgrade in Fowler and probably another pitcher, they are right in it, especially in their mind. AND if we paint the picture that he is going to have to scrap for every at bat with all the young OF prospects... might sound better to be locked into a starting position in the Bay.

On 9/4/2019 at 10:16 PM, kgarrett12486 said:

- Want no part of Jordan Zimmerman. Not only is he expensive, he's just not good anymore.

Hes not all that different than what we have been throwing out there in the 4/5 spot in the rotation this year. This sticking point that some of you have really illuminates one big thing; you guys are being big time Homers when it comes to the back of this rotation, because if you would objectively look at what our back end Starters are giving for most of the year, its pretty gross.

Just a quick blind comparison from the what the results looks like since the start of August;

  • Player A: 6 starts, 33.2 innings (5.2 per start), 28-Ks/13-BBs, (2.15/1 ratio) 1.49 WHIP, 3.74 ERA 4-HRs 
  • Player B: 5 Starts, 28.0 innings (5.2 per start) 24-Ks/2-BBs, (12/1 ratio) 0.93 WHIP, 3.21 ERA 4-HRs 

Player A is what we have gotten from Adam Wainwright since the start of August, and Player B is what Jordan Zimmerman has thrown for the Tigers in the same time frame.But you guys seem to be plenty fine just riding Wainwright into 2020 no questions? And in the end, you all are missing the point, its a money allocation move, to allow us to play the best talent in the field, it doesnt actually matter how much Zimmerman is getting paid. Id rather pay that $25M+ to one pitcher that wont hinder the roster construction (for only ONE year) than to Fowler/Cecil/Martinez who are muddling up the roster.

On 9/4/2019 at 10:16 PM, kgarrett12486 said:

- Don't see Waino coming back to be anything but a SP

He was happy to go into this year and earn his spot, his contract stucture says as much. If he wants to retire thats a different conversation, but I think he feels good again, and just like this year is willing to earn his spot, and if that spot is as a Closer/Set Up man, as long as he is given the opportunities to make his money, I think he is just fine with that. And again, If he, or Gant, or Gomber or Healsley WIN that #5 spot, then great, Zimmerman can be pushed into the BP just as easily as the rest of these guys.

 

I know the Zimmerman idea isnt your typical Baseball trade, but open up your mind to more than Player for prospect swaps in order to improve your team. Its time for people to start thinking outside of the box just alittle bit. This is very much a Basketball trade, but adapting and staying ahead of the curve is how the Cardinals, as an upper mid market team have been able to fight with the Big Boys for the past 2 decades. This hypothetical deal is based around taking on current dollars, to free up future cap space, while also clearing out spots in the lineup for better talent (potentially). All while moving other contracts/assets that we arent actually using and in the process making this move cash flow positive for the current season (taking on $25m for Zimmerman, while sending out $26.5m+ for Fowler/Cecil/Martinez/Munos). its more than just what production these guys would put up

Edited by StLunatic88
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1 minute ago, StLunatic88 said:

In the end you are probably right. I acknowledged as much, its really just how I would go about it. But a couple of things, First I think the idea that he is just handed the Leadoff spot next year is bad precedence. Again you are probably correct, but Kolten should be getting every chance to be that guy. And Two, I think the Giants see themselves as still going for it, and with basically the same team that is still kinda in the hunt for the WC, plus an upgrade in Fowler and probably another pitcher, they are right in it, especially in their mind. AND if we paint the picture that he is going to have to scrap for every at bat with all the young OF prospects... might sound better to be locked into a starting position in the Bay.

That NTC is pretty much a DOA for any chance of dealing him.  Let me ask you this, why would Dexter Fowler be willing to waive his NTC?  He has no ties to the Giants and he's not from the San Francisco.  He's from Atlanta, so there's virtually no chance he'd accept a deal to San Francisco IMO.  As for Kolten Wong, he's a career 77 wRC+ batting 1st in 344 career at-bats.  Dexter Fowler has a career 109 wRC+ in nearly 3000 at-bats.  Kolten Wong really hasn't shown the ability to handle that position.  Keep him where he's hitting.

6 minutes ago, StLunatic88 said:

Hes not all that different than what we have been throwing out there in the 4/5 spot in the rotation this year. This sticking point that some of you have really show 2 big things; 1) is you guys are being big time Homers, as if you would objectively look at what our back end Starters are giving for most of the year, its pretty gross. Just a quick blind comparison from the what the results looks like since the start of August;

  • Player A: 6 starts, 33.2 innings (5.2 per start), 28-Ks/13-BBs, (2.15/1 ratio) 1.49 WHIP, 3.74 ERA 4-HRs 
  • Player B: 5 Starts, 28.0 innings (5.2 per start) 24-Ks/2-BBs, (12/1 ratio) 0.93 WHIP, 3.21 ERA 4-HRs 

Player A is what we have gotten from Adam Wainwright since the start of August, and Player B is what Jordan Zimmerman has thrown for the Tigers in the same time frame.But you guys seem to be plenty fine just riding Wainwright into 2020 no questions? And in the end, you all are missing the point, its a money allocation move, to allow us to play the best talent in the field, it doesnt actually matter how much Zimmerman is getting paid. Id rather pay that $25M+ to one pitcher that wont hinder the roster construction (for only ONE year) than to Fowler/Cecil/Martinez who are muddling up the roster.

I don't want Waino anywhere near the rotation if I can help it.  But Waino has also thrown 50+ more innings, but more importantly Waino was signed for nearly $23M less.  That's an extra $23M that we can spend.  There's a finite payroll and spending nearly a fifth of that on a mediocre SP isn't good business.  Best thing you can say is that you're clearing long-term salary.

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Just now, CWood21 said:

Kolten Wong really hasn't shown the ability to handle that position.

Kolten Wong has not been afforded the chance to handle that position, so we really cant say that. And I dont care what his Career numbers are, he is a different hitter now, this year, and what i see is the ability to be a leadoff hitter. And a much better one that we have in Fowler. Fowler has a ceiling in that position, and we are at it right now, its not going to be better than we have seen since the ASB, which has been good, but Kolten has the tools (contact, ball placement, base speed and power) to be a Great Leadoff Man.

3 minutes ago, CWood21 said:

But Waino has also thrown 50+ more innings, but more importantly Waino was signed for nearly $23M less.  That's an extra $23M that we can spend.  There's a finite payroll and spending nearly a fifth of that on a mediocre SP isn't good business.  Best thing you can say is that you're clearing long-term salary.

Were not throwing out an extra $23m dollars here. Its money that has already been spent, it would just be a reallocation from the OF/Bench/IR to a pitcher. And those spots will all be filled by cheap, minimum salary guys. You cant get that money back, all ytou can do is find the most productive way for it to take up the payroll. 

In my scenario, the only dollar increases are Ozuna's raise on the extension, Gant's raise from Arbitration, and the increase from what we are paying Weiters to what we would pay Freese (which is actually covered by total sum the savings from the Fowler/Zimmerman deal that I proposed). And Waino isnt likely to hit as many escalators as he has this season. So its actually likely that the Payroll is virtually the same, maybe a few million mostly due to locking up Ozuna

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10 minutes ago, CWood21 said:

Let me ask you this, why would Dexter Fowler be willing to waive his NTC?

Ive said this a bunch in these discussions; Because he wants to PLAY. If we are set on bringing back Ozuna (my assumption here), and we think we have the goods with some of these young guys (who have been eating into his ABs since he got here) and he continues to be a Platoon with 3 other guys for 2 positions, ones who the club have more invested in beyond 2021, he may (and Ive always said this wouldnt be easy and would have to sell him on this) see the writing on the wall. Thats where he would be OK with heading to another good franchise, who is a perennial contender for the playoffs, and can promise him the full time starting spot, seeing that as greener pastures.

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18 hours ago, StLunatic88 said:

In the end you are probably right. I acknowledged as much, its really just how I would go about it. But a couple of things, First I think the idea that he is just handed the Leadoff spot next year is bad precedence. Again you are probably correct, but Kolten should be getting every chance to be that guy. And Two, I think the Giants see themselves as still going for it, and with basically the same team that is still kinda in the hunt for the WC, plus an upgrade in Fowler and probably another pitcher, they are right in it, especially in their mind. AND if we paint the picture that he is going to have to scrap for every at bat with all the young OF prospects... might sound better to be locked into a starting position in the Bay.

Hes not all that different than what we have been throwing out there in the 4/5 spot in the rotation this year. This sticking point that some of you have really illuminates one big thing; you guys are being big time Homers when it comes to the back of this rotation, because if you would objectively look at what our back end Starters are giving for most of the year, its pretty gross.

Just a quick blind comparison from the what the results looks like since the start of August;

  • Player A: 6 starts, 33.2 innings (5.2 per start), 28-Ks/13-BBs, (2.15/1 ratio) 1.49 WHIP, 3.74 ERA 4-HRs 
  • Player B: 5 Starts, 28.0 innings (5.2 per start) 24-Ks/2-BBs, (12/1 ratio) 0.93 WHIP, 3.21 ERA 4-HRs 

Player A is what we have gotten from Adam Wainwright since the start of August, and Player B is what Jordan Zimmerman has thrown for the Tigers in the same time frame.But you guys seem to be plenty fine just riding Wainwright into 2020 no questions? And in the end, you all are missing the point, its a money allocation move, to allow us to play the best talent in the field, it doesnt actually matter how much Zimmerman is getting paid. Id rather pay that $25M+ to one pitcher that wont hinder the roster construction (for only ONE year) than to Fowler/Cecil/Martinez who are muddling up the roster.

He was happy to go into this year and earn his spot, his contract stucture says as much. If he wants to retire thats a different conversation, but I think he feels good again, and just like this year is willing to earn his spot, and if that spot is as a Closer/Set Up man, as long as he is given the opportunities to make his money, I think he is just fine with that. And again, If he, or Gant, or Gomber or Healsley WIN that #5 spot, then great, Zimmerman can be pushed into the BP just as easily as the rest of these guys.

 

I know the Zimmerman idea isnt your typical Baseball trade, but open up your mind to more than Player for prospect swaps in order to improve your team. Its time for people to start thinking outside of the box just alittle bit. This is very much a Basketball trade, but adapting and staying ahead of the curve is how the Cardinals, as an upper mid market team have been able to fight with the Big Boys for the past 2 decades. This hypothetical deal is based around taking on current dollars, to free up future cap space, while also clearing out spots in the lineup for better talent (potentially). All while moving other contracts/assets that we arent actually using and in the process making this move cash flow positive for the current season (taking on $25m for Zimmerman, while sending out $26.5m+ for Fowler/Cecil/Martinez/Munos). its more than just what production these guys would put up

- Never did I say I'm 'fine' with Wainwright being handed a spot in the rotation. I actually think we'd be better served to let him walk, but I'm not naive. I know what he's done for this organization and how much they love having him...

-The sample size you gave is 6 starts. Extremely small. Look at the comparison over the last year alone...

-These trades just don't happen in the MLB. Multi-player, multi-team salary dumps with no/minimal prospect in involvement. There is no close mindedness on my part, it's just reality. It's an NBA trade as you referenced...

-Fowler wouldn't just be handed the leadoff spot. My point with that, was that he's a fall back option should Carpenter faulter again. I'm fine with whoever at leadoff, given they produce...

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