The STL Cardinals Thread - New Season, Same Old Cardinals?

[ttitansfan4life]

We’re outbidding the Dodgers now…. Good luck with that 

[CWood21]

2 hours ago, ttitansfan4life said:

We’re outbidding the Dodgers now…. Good luck with that 

I'm not sure it's about out-bidding the Dodgers.  I think if the Dodgers were to go out and sign Aaron Judge, they'd probably shift Mookie Betts to 2B and move Gavin Lux to SS.

[ttitansfan4life]

53 minutes ago, CWood21 said:

I'm not sure it's about out-bidding the Dodgers.  I think if the Dodgers were to go out and sign Aaron Judge, they'd probably shift Mookie Betts to 2B and move Gavin Lux to SS.

Sounds like a dumb idea for the Dodgers if we’re being honest. Trea Turner changes a lot for the Cardinals so I’d be all for it. There wouldn’t be a better IF in baseball offensively or defensively.

[holt_bruce81]

I just Heard yesterday that Aaron Judge’s personal hitting coach lives in St. Peters MO. Ha, that’s pretty cool. 

[CWood21]

19 hours ago, ttitansfan4life said:

Sounds like a dumb idea for the Dodgers if we’re being honest. Trea Turner changes a lot for the Cardinals so I’d be all for it. There wouldn’t be a better IF in baseball offensively or defensively.

I'm not sure I'd disagree, but the Dodgers might think Judge is better for them long-term.  Trea Turner isn't anything special defensively, so they might prefer to go with a better defensive SS.

[CWood21]

Not sure how to feel about the coaching staff, but glad to see Matt Holliday back with the organization.

[ttitansfan4life]

5 minutes ago, CWood21 said:

Not sure how to feel about the coaching staff, but glad to see Matt Holliday back with the organization.

Doesn’t shock me that they promote from within and goes with a familiar face  as bench coach.

[kgarrett12486]

Some of the names I think we're likely to target in either FA or via trade this offseason:

Catcher- Alejandro Kirk, Sean Murphy, Wilson Contreras, Tucker Barnhardt

Short Stop- Xander Bogaerts, Trea Turner, Jose Iglesias

Outfield- Brandon Nimmo, Andrew Benintendi 

Starters- Shane Bieber, Justin Verlander, Jacon Degrom, Carlos Rodon

[CWood21]

3 hours ago, kgarrett12486 said:

Alejandro Kirk

Feels like he's been mentioned quite a bit lately.  Is there any reason Toronto would actually deal him?

[kgarrett12486]

15 hours ago, CWood21 said:

Feels like he's been mentioned quite a bit lately.  Is there any reason Toronto would actually deal him?

He's going into arbitration in 2024 and they have hyped prospect behind him in Gabriel Moreno. 

He's also fetch a better return in trade than Danny Jansen too. 

Edited November 7, 2022 by kgarrett12486

[StLunatic88]

19 hours ago, kgarrett12486 said:

Some of the names I think we're likely to target in either FA or via trade this offseason:

Catcher- Alejandro Kirk, Sean Murphy, Wilson Contreras, Tucker Barnhardt

Short Stop- Xander Bogaerts, Trea Turner, Jose Iglesias

Outfield- Brandon Nimmo, Andrew Benintendi 

Starters- Shane Bieber, Justin Verlander, Jacon Degrom, Carlos Rodon

I think after we explore the Contreras market, Christian Vasquez will be our top fall back option at Catcher

I think Masyn Winn will factor in to our approach in the SS market, hard to see us committing 5-7 years to a guy there, especially when we wouldnt last year

Really dont see us going anfter an Outfielder to actually play in the OF, possibly as a DH guy though

And I will be very surprised if we are going out to sign any sort of high end Starter, unless we are trading away Jack or Matz

[kgarrett12486]

4 hours ago, StLunatic88 said:

I think Masyn Winn will factor in to our approach in the SS market, hard to see us committing 5-7 years to a guy there, especially when we wouldnt last year

Really dont see us going anfter an Outfielder to actually play in the OF, possibly as a DH guy though

And I will be very surprised if we are going out to sign any sort of high end Starter, unless we are trading away Jack or Matz

He's definitely a factor, but don't think he precludes us from signing a premier bat at that spot. He's still a prospect and not MLB ready. I think if he continues his development/ascension, you deal with that good problem to have at that point. I honestly think the (2) SS this team covets are Turner and Bogaerts, both of which we'd kicked the tires on in trade rumors in past and who weren't available last off-season. 

 I think the ship has sailed here with Flaherty. With him never being able to stay healthy or reciprocate a level close to the 2019 season, I think he could be moved this off-season. He's only got 1 more year of control and we know he's going to highest bidder in FA when he's available.   

[StLunatic88]

1 hour ago, kgarrett12486 said:

He's definitely a factor, but don't think he precludes us from signing a premier bat at that spot. He's still a prospect and not MLB ready. I think if he continues his development/ascension, you deal with that good problem to have at that point. I honestly think the (2) SS this team covets are Turner and Bogaerts, both of which we'd kicked the tires on in trade rumors in past and who weren't available last off-season. 

You will need to have a well thought out plan if you are going to commit 6-7 years to one of those guys. Because even in the most conservative projections right now, Winn is ready in 2025 (and thats a stretch). So thats 3-4 more years of the Free Agent you sign. So what do you do then? You will still have Arenado for 3 years at that point, Are you projecting him to move to 1B or DH to finish his career? Dont know that he will like that. Speaking of those spots, if hes still hitting at all, are you just letting Goldschmidt walk at that point? And finally Tommy Edman will just be coming out of Arbitration, are you saying right now that youre already planning on letting him walk?

Its not as simple as we have some money right now, when we are talking about a 7 year deal. Thats a guy you are committing to making the face of your Franchise. And in the history of the Cardinals, how many of those have we given out? Like 2? (Pujols & Holliday) And none of those have ever been true Free Agents.

Not even Yadi got a 7 year deal, it was a 5 year, and then we added 3 final years when it was about over. We have signed some 5 year true free agents (Mikolas/Fowler) but we have never been keen to go longer than that.

[kgarrett12486]

15 hours ago, StLunatic88 said:

You will need to have a well thought out plan if you are going to commit 6-7 years to one of those guys. Because even in the most conservative projections right now, Winn is ready in 2025 (and thats a stretch). So thats 3-4 more years of the Free Agent you sign. So what do you do then? You will still have Arenado for 3 years at that point, Are you projecting him to move to 1B or DH to finish his career? Dont know that he will like that. Speaking of those spots, if hes still hitting at all, are you just letting Goldschmidt walk at that point? And finally Tommy Edman will just be coming out of Arbitration, are you saying right now that youre already planning on letting him walk?

Its not as simple as we have some money right now, when we are talking about a 7 year deal. Thats a guy you are committing to making the face of your Franchise. And in the history of the Cardinals, how many of those have we given out? Like 2? (Pujols & Holliday) And none of those have ever been true Free Agents.

Not even Yadi got a 7 year deal, it was a 5 year, and then we added 3 final years when it was about over. We have signed some 5 year true free agents (Mikolas/Fowler) but we have never been keen to go longer than that.

Like you said, Winn is a projection at this point. As it stands right now, he's still at least 2 years away from being an everyday option. That's if he continues on the current developmental course. What if he regresses/plateaus or an injury occurs? We've put all our eggs in the prospect basket before with no contingency plan and it hasn't gone according to plan, which left us with holes/production to fill.

You got to remember, just because Holliday, Pujols and Wainwright were really the only guys recently who've gotten 5+ year deals, doesn't mean we haven't been willing. They wanted to make Giancarlo Stanton, Jayson Heyward, David Price, etc. into guys that fit this category, but came up short for various reasons. 

To me, it's more about the fit than anything, which is why I don't include a guy like Correa on this list. We've never really been connected to him and I think FO knows he's not a realistic option given he's looking for that 7-10 year deal. We've had discussions at various points in recent with both Turner and Bogaerts when they were 'reportedly' on the market, I just think we were never going to give up the compensation it would've took to get them via trade and knowing they were on expiring deals. 

As for Goldy, if he's still hitting when his deal is up, I think you're probably going year to year, or a two year deal with a player/club option. I get the sense that he wants to finish his career here and think he's the type of personality that would go that route vs. chasing the long-term/money.  

If we sign a Bogaerts/Turner to a 5-7 year deal and Winn is ready in 2025 and as expected, I could see all mentioned being part of the equation except an Edman. Realistically, if we're projecting that far ahead though, he may not be on this team regardless of a signing, as when he's up for FA you have almost the exact same player in line with Donovan. I don't think you're keeping both anyway given their value is really defensively and their position versatility. Don't think you could keep both of them as starting caliber bats in your line-up and succeed long-term. 

[StLunatic88]

2 hours ago, kgarrett12486 said:

You got to remember, just because Holliday, Pujols and Wainwright were really the only guys recently who've gotten 5+ year deals, doesn't mean we haven't been willing. They wanted to make Giancarlo Stanton, Jayson Heyward, David Price, etc. into guys that fit this category, but came up short for various reasons. 

Its because we want to do those type of deals on our terms.

You are nothing but hoping and wishing at this point. Our LONG history says these just are the deals we make with guys who we have Zero prior history with. We were all excited for us to dive into the SS market last season, and we basically tapped out. We picked Paul DeJong over making a move.

Im leaning on what we have actually done historically. And weve done that without ever having a projected stud prospect at the position that we are talking about. And just like youre saying Winn is 2 years away, what if he tears it up again and has a Walker-like season? And he's pushing to be called up just past Super 2 time in 2024? Both of those options are on the table.