AZ’s Final 2023 Mock Draft (probably)

[AZBearsFan]

1 hour ago, StLunatic88 said:

About the Bears specifically? No. But CKs size and length have been a major talking point in the run up to the draft. 

No doubt. I was indeed speaking specifically about the Bears. And being fair I don’t know that it hasn’t taken him off or at least down the Bears’ board either. 

[StLunatic88]

42 minutes ago, Bigbear72 said:

He measures like Ed Oliver without as much upper body strength and slightly shorter arms. He has better agility but isn't quite as strong. How will that translate in the NFL? Who knows. But Donald isn't the only undersized DT to have success in the modern NFL.

But think about the two guys you just mentioned, Donald and Oliver. They are both SO much stronger than Kancey. If your short (length) you need the strength to fight in the trenches, being quick/fast only works sometimes while often you just get swallowed

[Bigbear72]

8 minutes ago, StLunatic88 said:

But think about the two guys you just mentioned, Donald and Oliver. They are both SO much stronger than Kancey. If your short (length) you need the strength to fight in the trenches, being quick/fast only works sometimes while often you just get swallowed

I'm not pounding the table for him by any means. I am interested in seeing how his game will translate to the pro game though.

[Madmike90]

11 hours ago, AZBearsFan said:

I’m not a Kancey guy either, but he illustrates a larger point that I think is relevant (not one necessarily specific to Kancey or Brooks though they fit) - there is so much obsession about traits and measurables that gets in the way of what matters more which is actual production. Can a guy play, or can’t he? How much of the bust factor in drafting at the NFL level stems from personnel guys obsessing over taking athletes who fit the mold in their heads and trying to make them better football players over taking guys who are actually good at football? There are tons and tons of guys who look like NFL players and who get drafted highly solely because of it who just aren’t ability-wise. I’m all for going after traits guys in the latter half of the draft or when you already have a pretty loaded roster but at the same time you need some floor guys too to offset those swings for the fences at some point too. If you’re trying to hit a home run with every pick you’re going to swing and miss a lot, and drafting those types of guys when you are in the position where you need the pick to produce is usually setting yourself up for failure. 

I think this is where we disagree and the reason is listening to some of the draft guys from the athletic and them talking about film study and how one of the first thing they look for is the difference between reps & NFL reps and how at some positions it's more difficult to find than at others...the example they used was CJ Stroud who most of the time sits back behind an excellent OL and throws to the best weapons in the country...the production is insane but when they watch him they look for the 4-6 "NFL reps" where something breaks down in protection or his 1st read if jammed at the LOS...being able to play when it isn't perfect is a trait for a QB that is way more important than the box score of production...for a guy like Kancey or Brooks being able to put up numbers against competition who might be gym teacher in a few years isn't as important to me as the traits of having the sort of frame that works in the scheme and in the NFL as a whole...for me a guy like Kancey is such an outlier that he is a cherry on top sort who you can use to pick your spots with...the Eagles for example makes all the sense in the world...but we just simply aren't there to take the risk it...give me the traits over the production.

[WindyCity]

I really like it.

The fact that we would be replacing Alex Leatherwood and Cody Whitehair with 2 legit players… that would be very exciting for me.

The weakest player on our line at that point would likely be Braxton and that is a massive improvement.

[beardown3231]

21 minutes ago, WindyCity said:

I really like it.

The fact that we would be replacing Alex Leatherwood and Cody Whitehair with 2 legit players… that would be very exciting for me.

The weakest player on our line at that point would likely be Braxton and that is a massive improvement.

Yeah but Leatherwood's RAS, dude

[AZBearsFan]

15 hours ago, Madmike90 said:

I think this is where we disagree and the reason is listening to some of the draft guys from the athletic and them talking about film study and how one of the first thing they look for is the difference between reps & NFL reps and how at some positions it's more difficult to find than at others...the example they used was CJ Stroud who most of the time sits back behind an excellent OL and throws to the best weapons in the country...the production is insane but when they watch him they look for the 4-6 "NFL reps" where something breaks down in protection or his 1st read if jammed at the LOS...being able to play when it isn't perfect is a trait for a QB that is way more important than the box score of production...for a guy like Kancey or Brooks being able to put up numbers against competition who might be gym teacher in a few years isn't as important to me as the traits of having the sort of frame that works in the scheme and in the NFL as a whole...for me a guy like Kancey is such an outlier that he is a cherry on top sort who you can use to pick your spots with...the Eagles for example makes all the sense in the world...but we just simply aren't there to take the risk it...give me the traits over the production.

To clarify, because I didn’t articulate it as well as I wish I had, I didn’t mean production in college on stats alone so much as, will what they did in college to produce translate to the NFL? To that extent, it’s really about both the traits and the production. To use Kancey as an example, he may have the arm length of a 9-year old but if his quickness is elite enough to still allow him to make plays with some consistency then I don’t care. 

The ones that I think get more people fired are the ones where guys have had all the traits and tools all along but never had the production. Those are the ones I was trying to point out in my prior post. There are an awful lot of guys who look the part but can’t play. Guys like Zach Harrison, who I do like, will probably be overdrafted because he looks and tests like a Madden create-a-player who should dominate frequently, but the lack of any real signs of that across his college career are really concerning to me. With guys like him the obvious questions like “Why didn’t this guy produce?” seem to get ignored in personnel departments.

Traits with production is obviously ideal. Both production without obvious traits and obvious traits without production have concerns but I tend to lean toward wanting the guys who got the job done with less previously more than those who didn’t get the job done despite having more, at least earlier in the draft. But, depending on draft slot I’m open to either. Won’t hit many home runs without taking big swings, but if you only take big swings then you’re Joey Gallo and that isn’t any good either.