IronMike84 Posted April 2, 2018 Share Posted April 2, 2018 (edited) 3 minutes ago, IronMike84 said: I have a hard time believing Harry Hiestand wouldn't be making some noise in the draft room of Nelson is there. To elaborate further though, as much as I've been in favor of Nelson, Nelson doesn't fit the profile of the players that Pace has taken in round 1 through three drafts, which is elite athletes, guys who are largely projections and nowhere near their ceiling, and guys who don't necessarily have a ton of experience playing their pro positions. He hasn't gone for "safe" picks. No idea if/how the new coaching staff plays a role though. Edited April 2, 2018 by IronMike84 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AZBearsFan Posted April 2, 2018 Share Posted April 2, 2018 4 minutes ago, G08 said: As would I... but Nelson is one of the better OGs to be coming out in quite some time, right? It's a glaring need of ours AND we have his freaking college position coach here who you have to think will be pounding the table for this kid. I just... I dunno. I don't believe in taking a guard top 10, let alone top 8, but I have a feeling he's going to be sitting there staring at us when our pick rolls around. I don’t think Nelson is Pace’s guy personally. I think he’s more than happy to have all of the dots be connected there for him though. While we clearly have an OL need I think far too much is made about the state of our OL. With no more than health and no additions our OL should be roughly on par with last year’s OL as far as starters go (same at OT, Long back and Sitton gone is a push, and Whitehair same), but with all of our injured depth back with players better than those we had in last year, meaning no Grasu at center, specifically. It’s not as though not taking Nelson means we aren’t hitting the OL with a good addition in the draft. If you told me we were adding any of Wynn, Hernandez, Daniels, Price, Braden Smith or Ragnow in the draft with the intention of them being a starter this year on the interior I would be totally satisfied with the addition. Those guys all project to being immediate solid starters or better, and with long term high upside. If I can get that in round 2-3 then Quenton Nelson at 8 is a complete luxury pick, especially when I know I can’t get Landry, Davenport, Edmunds, Fitzpatrick, James or Ward later. Last year’s OL play was far from a train wreck either - Jordan Howard was 6th amongst RB with at least 200 carries last year in ypc and that was running against 8 and 9-man boxes like 85% of the time in a Tecmo Bowl offensive scheme. We were middle of the pack last year in terms of sacks allowed and I’d wager a good portion of them were due to either Glennon’s statuesque nature in the pocket which is now gone or Trubisky’s rookie pocket clock that should improve independent of the OL personnel. Not only can we adequately and likely better than adequately (long term) replace Sitton with a non-first round pick we should also remember how we got Sitton in the first place because it’s certainly something available at some level in every season. Think about it - if we don’t draft Nelson someone else will, and him being brought in probably means a veteran becomes available. Maybe a solid veteran. Same goes for Wynn, Hernandez, Daniels, etc. Drafting a high upside mid-rounder and plugging a post-draft vet FA as a 1-year stop gap while Hiestand works his magic with the prospect is a completely viable and reasonable play that doesn’t have us taking an interior OL in the top 10. All of this also assumes he doesn’t see a lot to work with in Jordan Morgan or Eric Kush which we don’t yet know. The Nelson thing is low hanging fruit to me. It fits a need. The coach connection is there. But the cost is SO HIGH for what he is, and that has very little to do with Nelson himself as a player. The positional importance and replaceability is so big for me. To me, if you could offer me either Alan Faneca or John Tait each for the entirety of their careers I would take Tait in a heartbeat every single time, and Faneca is probably going to be in the HOF. Should it be that way? I dunno, but for me it is. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G08 Posted April 2, 2018 Share Posted April 2, 2018 8 minutes ago, AZBearsFan said: The Nelson thing is low hanging fruit to me. It fits a need. The coach connection is there. But the cost is SO HIGH for what he i That's how I feel as well, but who out of Fitzpatrick, Davenport, Landry, Ward will give be as sure of a thing as Nelson? I like Fitz a ton, but where do you put him? Slot corner? Ditto ward, slot as well? Is Davenport in his rawness worth a top 10 pick? I'm of the opinion the EDGE talent at 8 is much greater than the EDGE talent at #39 (and I love the interior OL talent that should be there for us at pick #39). So I'm with you... I'm just trying to prepare myself for us taking Nelson no matter what if he's there at 8. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronMike84 Posted April 2, 2018 Share Posted April 2, 2018 1 minute ago, G08 said: That's how I feel as well, but who out of Fitzpatrick, Davenport, Landry, Ward will give be as sure of a thing as Nelson? I like Fitz a ton, but where do you put him? Slot corner? Ditto ward, slot as well? There are a lot of pieces in that puzzle that we just don't have access to. I think a big part of it is whether or not the guy is really driven to succeed, how hard of a worker he is, how he handles adversity and what his mental toughness is like, how much he loves football, and if the coaching staff is in place to make him reach his potential. As fans, we can sit around and talk about what we like from TV broadcast cut-ups, but we never get to interview the player and the people around him and learn about this background and intangibles, and that's what makes us wrong so often. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Epyon Posted April 2, 2018 Share Posted April 2, 2018 41 minutes ago, IronMike84 said: To elaborate further though, as much as I've been in favor of Nelson, Nelson doesn't fit the profile of the players that Pace has taken in round 1 through three drafts, which is elite athletes, guys who are largely projections and nowhere near their ceiling, and guys who don't necessarily have a ton of experience playing their pro positions. He hasn't gone for "safe" picks. No idea if/how the new coaching staff plays a role though. A factor also is that Pace apparently gave up a large amount of his personnel control (on the defensive side of the ball) to Vic as part of the deal to keep him here... This pick might not necessarily be Pace's to make, in the way the previous ones where, if we target a defensive player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AZBearsFan Posted April 2, 2018 Share Posted April 2, 2018 2 minutes ago, G08 said: That's how I feel as well, but who out of Fitzpatrick, Davenport, Landry, Ward will give be as sure of a thing as Nelson? I like Fitz a ton, but where do you put him? Slot corner? Ditto ward, slot as well? Is Davenport in his rawness worth a top 10 pick? I'm of the opinion the EDGE talent at 8 is much greater than the EDGE talent at #39 (and I love the interior OL talent that should be there for us at pick #39). So I'm with you... I'm just trying to prepare myself for us taking Nelson no matter what if he's there at 8. I just don’t see a great guard as a difference maker. The 90s Cowboys weren’t great because they had Larry Allen. They were great because they had impact players at QB, RB, WR, Edge and in the secondary. Emmitt Smith would still have been great with an another Nate Newton at LG, same as Zeke would still be great behind our OL. We talk so much about Pace’s trends in here. 3 for 3 in the first round he has taken big swings on impact players at playmaker positions. Nelson only fits one of those three. The edge rushers and Edmunds at whatever position they’d want him for fit them all. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G08 Posted April 2, 2018 Share Posted April 2, 2018 4 minutes ago, Epyon said: A factor also is that Pace apparently gave up a large amount of his personnel control (on the defensive side of the ball) to Vic as part of the deal to keep him here... This pick might not necessarily be Pace's to make, in the way the previous ones where, if we target a defensive player. Say what now? I've got to ask where you heard that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronMike84 Posted April 2, 2018 Share Posted April 2, 2018 7 minutes ago, G08 said: That's how I feel as well, but who out of Fitzpatrick, Davenport, Landry, Ward will give be as sure of a thing as Nelson? I like Fitz a ton, but where do you put him? Slot corner? Ditto ward, slot as well? Is Davenport in his rawness worth a top 10 pick? I'm of the opinion the EDGE talent at 8 is much greater than the EDGE talent at #39 (and I love the interior OL talent that should be there for us at pick #39). So I'm with you... I'm just trying to prepare myself for us taking Nelson no matter what if he's there at 8. More tangibly, I don't think there's a negative to having three decent corners. It's not a bad thing if Ward plays nickel immediately, as long as he has the ability to kick outside when needed. A good corner will get on the field in today's NFL. Fitz, I know I'm rehashing things I said 10+ pages ago, but the evaluation on him is going to very greatly. He fits some schemes but doesn't fit others. I think anytime that wants to play a big nickel, moneybacker, monsterback, whatever you want to call it, can find a role for him. I don't think he's a great fit for Fangio's scheme because Fangio wants everything to look the same pre-snap as a means of disguise rather than showing multiple looks to create confusion. Fitz may be best deployed in a scheme where he can be moved around, so I don't see the Bears taking him. The same goes for Derwin James. I see Derwin fitting a team that wants a box strong safety, so maybe somebody who runs the "Seattle" scheme like Seattle, San Fran, Atlanta, and I think Green Bay may incorporate elements of that defense. But again, he's not a fit everywhere. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sugashane Posted April 2, 2018 Share Posted April 2, 2018 54 minutes ago, IronMike84 said: I have a hard time believing Harry Hiestand wouldn't be making some noise in the draft room of Nelson is there. In all fairness, every positional coach would likely be clamoring for a top tier prospect that needs almost no work. Lol The connection they have of course is one reason, but still. That's like any DL or OLB coach wanting Chubb or RB coach wanting Barkley. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronMike84 Posted April 2, 2018 Share Posted April 2, 2018 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Epyon said: A factor also is that Pace apparently gave up a large amount of his personnel control (on the defensive side of the ball) to Vic as part of the deal to keep him here... This pick might not necessarily be Pace's to make, in the way the previous ones where, if we target a defensive player. Based on an interview I've heard with Michael Lombardi, "personnel control" is really overblown. If what you say is true, that may mean that Fangio has the ability to decide who he has active and inactive on gameday, but I doubt that he would have a whole lot of "final say" draft influence. We already saw in videos last year that Pace was factoring in the opinion of Dowell Loggains in the evaluation of Trubisky, so it's not like he's not making the draft a collaborative process. Edited April 2, 2018 by IronMike84 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pigsooie5 Posted April 2, 2018 Share Posted April 2, 2018 A guy NONE of us are considering, which is strange, is Roquan Smith. Lavonte David/Pat Willis hybrid. I know it won’t be popular around here but I’d take him over Edmunds every day of the week and twice on Sundays. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G08 Posted April 2, 2018 Share Posted April 2, 2018 (edited) 5 minutes ago, pigsooie5 said: A guy NONE of us are considering, which is strange, is Roquan Smith. Lavonte David/Pat Willis hybrid. I know it won’t be popular around here but I’d take him over Edmunds every day of the week and twice on Sundays. I don't think Pace wants to give up on Kwiatkoski that quickly, does he? I thought he played decent last season, Trevathan too. He's also reallllly bad getting blockers off his body. Edited April 2, 2018 by G08 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronMike84 Posted April 2, 2018 Share Posted April 2, 2018 16 minutes ago, pigsooie5 said: A guy NONE of us are considering, which is strange, is Roquan Smith. Lavonte David/Pat Willis hybrid. I know it won’t be popular around here but I’d take him over Edmunds every day of the week and twice on Sundays. I've brought him up a few days ago and was told ILB isn't a need. 13 minutes ago, G08 said: I don't think Pace wants to give up on Kwiatkoski that quickly, does he? I don't know, he gave up on Jeremy Langford pretty quickly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G08 Posted April 2, 2018 Share Posted April 2, 2018 1 minute ago, IronMike84 said: I've brought him up a few days ago and was told ILB isn't a need. I don't know, he gave up on Jeremy Langford pretty quickly. Langford sucked, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronMike84 Posted April 2, 2018 Share Posted April 2, 2018 7 minutes ago, G08 said: Langford sucked, though. And Kwiatkoski is definitely 100% a starter? Judging by all of the Tremaine Edmunds love, it seems most people here were willing to take Edmunds over Kwiatkoski. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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