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NYRaider

NYRaider

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Just now, ronjon1990 said:

You also said Purdy was already better than any QB in Raiders history amd stuck to your guns on it until damn near everyone laughed at you over it. 

Between Hurts, Jimmy, and Purdy... really should be like 3 years before you're allowed to evaluate QBs bro. 

Hurts the dude that’s going for 4500 yards / 42 TD / 13 wins.

Purdy the dude that’s going for 4600 yards / 35 TD / 14 wins.

Youre right those dudes suck

I guess producing better than almost every QB in the league while leading their teams to more wins than almost every team in the league is a sign of mediocrity. 

Back in my day elite stats and wins used to mean something.

But you’d prefer to do evaluations based on hypotheticals. Like Bo could be the next McVay, not based on his performance this year or his resume. But based on the fact that all things are in fact possible.

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ronjon1990

ronjon1990

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2 minutes ago, NYRaider said:

Hurts the dude that’s going for 4500 yards / 42 TD / 13 wins.

Purdy the dude that’s going for 4600 yards / 35 TD / 14 wins.

Youre right those dudes suck

I guess producing better than almost every QB in the league while leading their teams to more wins than almost every team in the league is a sign of mediocrity. 

Back in my day elite stats and wins used to mean something.

But you’d prefer to do evaluations based on hypotheticals. Like Bo could be the next McVay, not based on his performance this year or his resume. But based on the fact that all things are in fact possible.

You're right, saying Bo could very well wind up being a hell of an OC if given the proper resources (good OL, good QB, time to draw up his own playbook as opposed to using scraps of McDaniels', etc.) is indeed a hypothetical. 

However, it's no less a hypothetical than using single single stats to predict one's future productivity, especially when using college stats and projecting them to the pros. 

Saying you're basing something on performance but ignoring context is also pretty cheap, as is mischaracterizing people's performances. 

For example, you said Hardigree "ruined" Mac. Not the system, not the QB coach, not the OC, not installing Matt Patricia as OC, not Mac Jones just not being very good, no, it was Bo Hardigree, an offensive assistant during Mac's best season. 

You also said he "ruined" Derek Carr as his QBs coach, yet you spent the last 4, 5 years saying Carr was already garbage. What was there to "ruin" in your eyes? 

You also said he "ruined" Ryan Tannehill as QB coach. Are we not only forgetting that Tannehill was never really very good before Bo either, but more importantly that he caught the injury bug and barely played with the guy? 

You said he "ruined" Sam Darnold, yet he was neither Sam Darnold's QB coach nor OC, but an assistant, and Darnold just isn't a good QB. 

You're now saying he ruined AOC despite AOC already being a severely limited rookie QB who should have never been taking meaningful snaps this year in the first place, will never be a starting QB in the NFL, and is calling plays from a cobbled together playbook after being given playcaing duties overnight when our offense minded HC and OC were both kicked to the curb mid season. 

None of that is based on actual fact, like you claim, because half the time you're not even correct at his position or duties in relation to the QB and the other half you're going back on your previous stance despite refusing to say you're going back on your previous stance because you'd hate to admit to being wrong about our last QB too much to acknowledge that that's what you're admitting to. 

See, here's the thing, it's not a hypothetical to point out the facts, and the facts are we don't know what Bo can do as an OC with a proper QB and scheme he actually designed and that currently has neither. Why is that not a hypothetical? Because he's never spent a season as an OC before. 

Now, you want to discuss stats, let's discuss stats. Coaches and assistants don't compile stats, their players compile stats. Bo Hardegree didn't select these guys. They're not his guys. Some of the key guys are rookies and/or were backups 8 weeks ago. There's going to be a learning curve with any first time OC, and Bo started out without his own scheme, playbook, players, an offseason, or a preseason. 

What I've seen under Bo is Zamir White, a guy who looked like a gone'er look just as good as Josh Jacobs ever did in carrying the load. Some of the best output from a Raiders offense ever, the TEs being appropriately involved, more looks for WRs not named Adams, a limited rookie QB making a ton of mistakes and yet knowing what risky shots to not take and limiting turnovers, WRs getting schemed wide open despite the limited rookie QB not seeing them, better blocking, less gimmicky plays, less trick plays, a play flow that needs some refinement but could be attributed to a simple lack of plays in the partial playbook he has to work from but still manages to keep the flow going better than his predecessor ever did whether it's executed properly or not (much more sensible play calling for the most). 

Coaches don't compile the stats. Players do. Coaches put them in position to. 

Do this, no matter how many passes AOC screws up against the Colts, no matter how many times AOC takes an avoidable sack, go back and pinpoint howany times our pass catchers wind up open and AOC simply isn't executing the play. When Zamir White misses a hole because he hasn't had the appropriate playing time since Josh decided to leave him benched in favor of Bolden, forget the fact he missed the hole. Count the number of holes missed. 

First time playcalling lumps aside- which again, Bo didn't get a preseason to work these out- the situational playcalling has largely been there as have the looks and the execution by guys who just didn't have the ball in their hands. 

Ever seen McVay's offense with a bad QB? I have- RG3 (wait, didn't McVay ruin RG3?), Bryce Perkins, Stetson Bemnet, Brett Rypien. Even the genius of McVay can only cover up horrendous QB play so much. And when they stink up the joint, what happens? People look at every single play and go "Dude was open, dude was wide open, walk in TD, blocking was fine there but dummy QB took a useless sack". 

That's the closest you can get to stats for a OC. 

McVay had 1 good season as an OC before becoming a HC amd getting labeled as one if the best ever. The rest of his time was nondescript.

All I’m saying is we don't know what Bo can or can't do, because he's never had a real shot at doing so that didn't come with numerous handicaps. He could be the next McVay. Contrary to your....musings....that means I also think he could very well be the next Todd Downing and absolutely suck. We don't know. Nobody knows. But he's drawn up enough good for me to say "Yeah, it looks like it's there, too bad our Day 3 rookie statute of a QB can't execute a simple pass play without making it as painful looking as possible."  

And while talking about resumes....do you evem remember McVays? Here:

2008- Offensive Assistant with Tampa Bay. Things went so bad the staff was fired. 

2009 Florida Tuskers WR coach. UFL? Lol. 

2010 Washington Redskins Offensive Assistant. Went so bad they derailed Donovan McNabb's elite run. 

2011- 13 Washington Redskins TE coach. Couldn't find use for Chris Cooley. None of Myers, Quinn, or Paulsen became good. Fred Davis kept failing drug tests. 

2014-2015 Washington Redskins OC. In 2014 they were near bottom in offensive TDs and points. 2015 was his breakout year and they scored quite a bit but were still below league average in yards. Good thing Kyle Shanahan left him Kirk Cousins and a fully fleshed out playbook though, right? 

Keep on scouting that box score though. You're probably fantastic at your fantasy league. 

 

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NYRaider

NYRaider

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4 minutes ago, ronjon1990 said:

You're right, saying Bo could very well wind up being a hell of an OC if given the proper resources (good OL, good QB, time to draw up his own playbook as opposed to using scraps of McDaniels', etc.) is indeed a hypothetical. 

However, it's no less a hypothetical than using single single stats to predict one's future productivity, especially when using college stats and projecting them to the pros. 

Saying you're basing something on performance but ignoring context is also pretty cheap, as is mischaracterizing people's performances. 

For example, you said Hardigree "ruined" Mac. Not the system, not the QB coach, not the OC, not installing Matt Patricia as OC, not Mac Jones just not being very good, no, it was Bo Hardigree, an offensive assistant during Mac's best season. 

You also said he "ruined" Derek Carr as his QBs coach, yet you spent the last 4, 5 years saying Carr was already garbage. What was there to "ruin" in your eyes? 

You also said he "ruined" Ryan Tannehill as QB coach. Are we not only forgetting that Tannehill was never really very good before Bo either, but more importantly that he caught the injury bug and barely played with the guy? 

You said he "ruined" Sam Darnold, yet he was neither Sam Darnold's QB coach nor OC, but an assistant, and Darnold just isn't a good QB. 

You're now saying he ruined AOC despite AOC already being a severely limited rookie QB who should have never been taking meaningful snaps this year in the first place, will never be a starting QB in the NFL, and is calling plays from a cobbled together playbook after being given playcaing duties overnight when our offense minded HC and OC were both kicked to the curb mid season. 

None of that is based on actual fact, like you claim, because half the time you're not even correct at his position or duties in relation to the QB and the other half you're going back on your previous stance despite refusing to say you're going back on your previous stance because you'd hate to admit to being wrong about our last QB too much to acknowledge that that's what you're admitting to. 

See, here's the thing, it's not a hypothetical to point out the facts, and the facts are we don't know what Bo can do as an OC with a proper QB and scheme he actually designed and that currently has neither. Why is that not a hypothetical? Because he's never spent a season as an OC before. 

Now, you want to discuss stats, let's discuss stats. Coaches and assistants don't compile stats, their players compile stats. Bo Hardegree didn't select these guys. They're not his guys. Some of the key guys are rookies and/or were backups 8 weeks ago. There's going to be a learning curve with any first time OC, and Bo started out without his own scheme, playbook, players, an offseason, or a preseason. 

What I've seen under Bo is Zamir White, a guy who looked like a gone'er look just as good as Josh Jacobs ever did in carrying the load. Some of the best output from a Raiders offense ever, the TEs being appropriately involved, more looks for WRs not named Adams, a limited rookie QB making a ton of mistakes and yet knowing what risky shots to not take and limiting turnovers, WRs getting schemed wide open despite the limited rookie QB not seeing them, better blocking, less gimmicky plays, less trick plays, a play flow that needs some refinement but could be attributed to a simple lack of plays in the partial playbook he has to work from but still manages to keep the flow going better than his predecessor ever did whether it's executed properly or not (much more sensible play calling for the most). 

Coaches don't compile the stats. Players do. Coaches put them in position to. 

Do this, no matter how many passes AOC screws up against the Colts, no matter how many times AOC takes an avoidable sack, go back and pinpoint howany times our pass catchers wind up open and AOC simply isn't executing the play. When Zamir White misses a hole because he hasn't had the appropriate playing time since Josh decided to leave him benched in favor of Bolden, forget the fact he missed the hole. Count the number of holes missed. 

First time playcalling lumps aside- which again, Bo didn't get a preseason to work these out- the situational playcalling has largely been there as have the looks and the execution by guys who just didn't have the ball in their hands. 

Ever seen McVay's offense with a bad QB? I have- RG3 (wait, didn't McVay ruin RG3?), Bryce Perkins, Stetson Bemnet, Brett Rypien. Even the genius of McVay can only cover up horrendous QB play so much. And when they stink up the joint, what happens? People look at every single play and go "Dude was open, dude was wide open, walk in TD, blocking was fine there but dummy QB took a useless sack". 

That's the closest you can get to stats for a OC. 

McVay had 1 good season as an OC before becoming a HC amd getting labeled as one if the best ever. The rest of his time was nondescript.

All I’m saying is we don't know what Bo can or can't do, because he's never had a real shot at doing so that didn't come with numerous handicaps. He could be the next McVay. Contrary to your....musings....that means I also think he could very well be the next Todd Downing and absolutely suck. We don't know. Nobody knows. But he's drawn up enough good for me to say "Yeah, it looks like it's there, too bad our Day 3 rookie statute of a QB can't execute a simple pass play without making it as painful looking as possible."  

And while talking about resumes....do you evem remember McVays? Here:

2008- Offensive Assistant with Tampa Bay. Things went so bad the staff was fired. 

2009 Florida Tuskers WR coach. UFL? Lol. 

2010 Washington Redskins Offensive Assistant. Went so bad they derailed Donovan McNabb's elite run. 

2011- 13 Washington Redskins TE coach. Couldn't find use for Chris Cooley. None of Myers, Quinn, or Paulsen became good. Fred Davis kept failing drug tests. 

2014-2015 Washington Redskins OC. In 2014 they were near bottom in offensive TDs and points. 2015 was his breakout year and they scored quite a bit but were still below league average in yards. Good thing Kyle Shanahan left him Kirk Cousins and a fully fleshed out playbook though, right? 

Keep on scouting that box score though. You're probably fantastic at your fantasy league. 

 

Sean McVay actually had success as a coordinator and came from under successful coaches. Unlike Bo Hardagree that has never had any success at any level of coaching and has been mentored by JMD and Adam Gase, two of the worst coaches in recent NFL history.

Could he be the next McVay? Sure. AOC could also be the next Tom Brady so we should pass on drafting a QB to give him an opportunity to prove it, right? Hell he could be even better than Brady and lead us to the next 8 Super Bowls.

 

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MrOaktown_56

MrOaktown_56

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After watching the defense the last few weeks, I am actually softening on my #1 CB take. I think if we could add a truly great CB to this defense, it would bump Jones to covering #2 receivers in man resulting in him being able to go for turnovers more and allow Hobbs to play the run in the slot and create impact plays. The result would be akin to Denver's no fly zone during their SB run. 

In the draft, I really like Kool Aid Mckinstry and Nate Wiggins. I haven't watched Terrion Arnold and Cooper Dejean as much but I've also heard good things about them.

In free agency, depending on who hits the market, Jaylon Johnson, L'Jarius Sneed stand out as top guys.

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NYRaider

NYRaider

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31 minutes ago, MrOaktown_56 said:

After watching the defense the last few weeks, I am actually softening on my #1 CB take. I think if we could add a truly great CB to this defense, it would bump Jones to covering #2 receivers in man resulting in him being able to go for turnovers more and allow Hobbs to play the run in the slot and create impact plays. The result would be akin to Denver's no fly zone during their SB run. 

In the draft, I really like Kool Aid Mckinstry and Nate Wiggins. I haven't watched Terrion Arnold and Cooper Dejean as much but I've also heard good things about them.

In free agency, depending on who hits the market, Jaylon Johnson, L'Jarius Sneed stand out as top guys.

If we add a true lockdown #1 CB we could have one of the best secondaries in the league. Jaylon Johnson is my number one target in free agency, especially since Kelly was with Chicago when they drafted him.

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MrOaktown_56

MrOaktown_56

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6 minutes ago, NYRaider said:

If we add a true lockdown #1 CB we could have one of the best secondaries in the league. Jaylon Johnson is my number one target in free agency, especially since Kelly was with Chicago when they drafted him.

I just wonder if he'll hit the market. If he does, we gotta be all over that.

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ronjon1990

ronjon1990

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I hate bowl season nowadays. The "playoff" games are the only ones worth watching. 

Coaches dipping out, guys sitting out for the draft, guys bouncing off into the portal....it's hard to get excited about what used to be exciting matchups unseen during the regular season. 

After watching some of these games hoping to see a prospect or two....my God it's worse than the preseason with the scab refs a few years back. No point in looking for any legit prospects because they're playing with and against mostly unseasoned backups- even on otherwise good teams. 

I wonder what effect the piss poor quality of these bowls now will eventually have in terms of playoff expansion and/or getting rid of the bloated bowl lineup. But the old watching a star one last time in a bowl game, possibly against the nest team they faced all year, is clearly over. 

 

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OnlyGlove

OnlyGlove

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14 hours ago, MrOaktown_56 said:

After watching the defense the last few weeks, I am actually softening on my #1 CB take. I think if we could add a truly great CB to this defense, it would bump Jones to covering #2 receivers in man resulting in him being able to go for turnovers more and allow Hobbs to play the run in the slot and create impact plays. The result would be akin to Denver's no fly zone during their SB run. 

In the draft, I really like Kool Aid Mckinstry and Nate Wiggins. I haven't watched Terrion Arnold and Cooper Dejean as much but I've also heard good things about them.

In free agency, depending on who hits the market, Jaylon Johnson, L'Jarius Sneed stand out as top guys.


I think you have to go offence in day 1 no matter what. QB mainly or/and WR. 
 

but we definitely need to go CB in day 2.  It’s a strange CB class, it’s got depth but not many stars. I like TJ Tempa, 6ft2 and physical. You can put him on the X and relax 

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OnlyGlove

OnlyGlove

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2 hours ago, ronjon1990 said:

I hate bowl season nowadays. The "playoff" games are the only ones worth watching. 

Coaches dipping out, guys sitting out for the draft, guys bouncing off into the portal....it's hard to get excited about what used to be exciting matchups unseen during the regular season. 

After watching some of these games hoping to see a prospect or two....my God it's worse than the preseason with the scab refs a few years back. No point in looking for any legit prospects because they're playing with and against mostly unseasoned backups- even on otherwise good teams. 

I wonder what effect the piss poor quality of these bowls now will eventually have in terms of playoff expansion and/or getting rid of the bloated bowl lineup. But the old watching a star one last time in a bowl game, possibly against the nest team they faced all year, is clearly over. 

 


I keep turning the games on, really looking forward to them. Half of them are pointless. Everyone has declared and not playing or they’re staying at college another year. Roll on the play offs

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ronjon1990

ronjon1990

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25 minutes ago, OnlyGlove said:


I keep turning the games on, really looking forward to them. Half of them are pointless. Everyone has declared and not playing or they’re staying at college another year. Roll on the play offs

It's really a let down, isn't it? 

Oregon St vs Notre Dame was one O really looked forward to, but heck the Oregon St team fielded wasn't even really the same team that played so well during the year...and it's not even hyperbole. Different coach, bunch of backups, etc. 

Bowl season used to be my favorite. 

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