OldManWillis Posted April 25 Share Posted April 25 1 hour ago, big_palooka said: I'm still not convinced. I think Penix and Nix will be there in round 2. I'm not buying teams are this desperate at QB that 6 go in round 1. I agree, media is driving the hype up on the QBs big time. I don't believe it. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
big_palooka Posted April 25 Share Posted April 25 1 hour ago, NickButera said: Years past I probably would have aligned more with this. However these moves move the needle (or don't) ust as much as your other side of the argument. Case and point, Kolton Miller. We've been there, done that, drafted some guys in other areas that turned out to be great players. In the end our franchise is still in shambles. Because an OT or CB can never change the direction of your franchise. If you hit on maybe 3-6 years of these guys than maybe. But even then....if you don't have a QB none of it matters. Your team isn't going anywhere. I'm tired of 'putting off trying to find a QB for another year". It's a guaranteed to not help us move. And I don't like watching us just be passive. I agree completely. You have to have a QB to win consistently in this league. I just don't see the value in Penix at 13 and no realistic path to the top 4 guys outside a Godfather level offer. That said, the draft rarely falls as the media expects. Maybe one of these guys slip and there is a realistic path. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ronjon1990 Posted April 25 Share Posted April 25 31 minutes ago, Frankie2Gunz said: We can not force draft a QB out of need. This team has drafted terribly for over two decades and the only way to turn this franchise around is to start to draft studs. The quick fix is to draft a superstar QB but the odds of landing that type of QB are minimal at 13. We also can't just keep building up and avoiding taking one either though. We have other needs right now, but QB is at or near the top of the list regardless. If we keep improving, we're going to wind up in a position where we routinely miss out or have to either mortgage years of future picks or spend royally on a FA- both of which are more detrimental than a single reach anymore. Lance and Wilson have shown this- you don't have to give QBs much time anymore if you get them and think they suck. Just move on from them and try again. There's a balance to it. Personally, I'd rather make a reach sooner rather than later, when additional needs are far more pressing. And let's face it, with how blindly enamored people and the media get over 1 or 2 QB prospects every year as "the greatest ever", unless you get pick 1 or 2, it's going to be called a reach. Not to endorse any particular QB, but all of the "reach" talk is overblown for where we're at. Unless we tank, we're reaching for a QB either via direct pick or how much we ultimately give up via trade. We're going to "reach" whether it's this year or next. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
big_palooka Posted April 25 Share Posted April 25 39 minutes ago, Frankie2Gunz said: We can not force draft a QB out of need. This team has drafted terribly for over two decades and the only way to turn this franchise around is to start to draft studs. The quick fix is to draft a superstar QB but the odds of landing that type of QB are minimal at 13. I would much rather come out of the first two rounds with a CB and OL versus over drafting a QB at 13 out of desperation in hopes he can be the franchise savior. Build a solid young foundation and make the transition of an incoming, young QB much smoother with solid pieces around him and a top tier D. Similar to what SF has done. If the value is there this year for a QB in the 1st I am all for it and if not then you take BPA which appears to be CB IMO... We have to take a long term approach and stop pretending this team is a contender, that is unless we land a superstar QB. If we overreach for a QB at 13 and the QB turns out to be bum like Zach Wilson that will lead to many more years of misery, coaching turnover and a new GM. Hard pass on the quick fix unless our front office is convinced the QB is elite. This is where I'm at. Don't settle for a QB. If you want one, you better be convinced he's the right one to develop. Penix is the girl you take home from the bar at 2am because you struck out on the hotties earlier that night. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ronjon1990 Posted April 25 Share Posted April 25 5 minutes ago, big_palooka said: I agree completely. You have to have a QB to win consistently in this league. I just don't see the value in Penix at 13 and no realistic path to the top 4 guys outside a Godfather level offer. That said, the draft rarely falls as the media expects. Maybe one of these guys slip and there is a realistic path. Someone will. You can safely bet on it. How far is TBD. Folks tend to forget that other teams with other needs are also going to be trying to move up and down the board, which can totally alter the course of round 1 and 2. Usually, after the first 4 picks or so, I consider it the Wild West. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frankie2Gunz Posted April 25 Share Posted April 25 Just now, big_palooka said: I agree completely. You have to have a QB to win consistently in this league. I just don't see the value in Penix at 13 and no realistic path to the top 4 guys outside a Godfather level offer. That said, the draft rarely falls as the media expects. Maybe one of these guys slip and there is a realistic path. I can see JJ going past the top 5. If he makes it past the Giants and gets to 7 I would be on the horn offering our 1st, 2nd this year and a future pick to move up and get him. The only issue is that we will be most likely competing with Min. who has the ammo in this draft to outbid us. it will be hard and if it doesn't materialize that is ok but the last thing we should do is get crazy and throw way too much to move up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ronjon1990 Posted April 25 Share Posted April 25 1 minute ago, Frankie2Gunz said: I can see JJ going past the top 5. If he makes it past the Giants and gets to 7 I would be on the horn offering our 1st, 2nd this year and a future pick to move up and get him. The only issue is that we will be most likely competing with Min. who has the ammo in this draft to outbid us. it will be hard and if it doesn't materialize that is ok but the last thing we should do is get crazy and throw way too much to move up. Depending on who one wants to target, I can agree to a reasonable trade up into the 8-10 range. I also wouldn't hate a trade back into the late teens/early 20s. I'd never give up the farm to climb into the top 5, nor would I trade back to the end of the round unless the comp was unrealistic. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frankie2Gunz Posted April 25 Share Posted April 25 7 minutes ago, ronjon1990 said: We also can't just keep building up and avoiding taking one either though. We have other needs right now, but QB is at or near the top of the list regardless. If we keep improving, we're going to wind up in a position where we routinely miss out or have to either mortgage years of future picks or spend royally on a FA- both of which are more detrimental than a single reach anymore. Lance and Wilson have shown this- you don't have to give QBs much time anymore if you get them and think they suck. Just move on from them and try again. There's a balance to it. Personally, I'd rather make a reach sooner rather than later, when additional needs are far more pressing. And let's face it, with how blindly enamored people and the media get over 1 or 2 QB prospects every year as "the greatest ever", unless you get pick 1 or 2, it's going to be called a reach. Not to endorse any particular QB, but all of the "reach" talk is overblown for where we're at. Unless we tank, we're reaching for a QB either via direct pick or how much we ultimately give up via trade. We're going to "reach" whether it's this year or next. Sure Qb is a major need, there is no doubting that but also there has to be value associated with each QB. I assure you that when it's all said and done this class will be lucky to have one superstar with the most likely outcome being multiple busts, one being average and one above average/ top 10. This team is devoid of young talent and we still have multiple holes to fill. This team is not a contender unless we draft a superstar QB, I don't see why this is a hard concept to grasp. I also don't see why so many have the urge to reach on a quick fix which rarely works out. BPA is the only way to get us out of this 20 rut we have been in. QB could be BPA and pose good value but it also may not. The last thing this team needs is to draft a Zach WIlson type bum which will lead to the next three seasons of purgatory. Get some coaching consistency, build a bully on D, solidify the Oline and surround our future rookie QB with some young weapons at WR and RB. That is a situation where a young rookie can step in and have success while not having to be the franchise savior and shoulder the load... That philosophy starts this evening! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ronjon1990 Posted April 25 Share Posted April 25 1 minute ago, Frankie2Gunz said: Sure Qb is a major need, there is no doubting that but also there has to be value associated with each QB. I assure you that when it's all said and done this class will be lucky to have one superstar with the most likely outcome being multiple busts, one being average and one above average/ top 10. That's pretty much every single class ever. The 2021 class was full of guys people swore were long term studs. The best of the bunch is painfully average. And the vast majority of people were ready to cancel anyone who spoke ill of their preferred flavor, whether it was daring to question Sunshine, pointing out Zach Wilson's schedule and prior performance, pointing out the many holes in Fields' game, or pointing out that Trey Lance played less football in college than practically any first round pick in modern history. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickButera Posted April 25 Share Posted April 25 25 minutes ago, ronjon1990 said: We also can't just keep building up and avoiding taking one either though. We have other needs right now, but QB is at or near the top of the list regardless. If we keep improving, we're going to wind up in a position where we routinely miss out or have to either mortgage years of future picks or spend royally on a FA- both of which are more detrimental than a single reach anymore. Lance and Wilson have shown this- you don't have to give QBs much time anymore if you get them and think they suck. Just move on from them and try again. There's a balance to it. Personally, I'd rather make a reach sooner rather than later, when additional needs are far more pressing. And let's face it, with how blindly enamored people and the media get over 1 or 2 QB prospects every year as "the greatest ever", unless you get pick 1 or 2, it's going to be called a reach. Not to endorse any particular QB, but all of the "reach" talk is overblown for where we're at. Unless we tank, we're reaching for a QB either via direct pick or how much we ultimately give up via trade. We're going to "reach" whether it's this year or next. That's a good point. Also, I don't think it's ever been brought up here. The amount of teams that have successfully built a roster through the draft/free agency over a 3-5 year time period is about the same amount of teams that hit on QB's, or less. The odds of "building your team on a long term project" vs the odds of "hitting on a QB in round 1" I'd argue are the same. However, you could potentially attempt to hit on a QB in round 1 every 2 years. Which gives you more "pulls on the slot machine" so to say, as opposed to being in a re-occurring loops of trying to build a team through first round picks. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#1RAIDER FAN Posted April 25 Share Posted April 25 28 minutes ago, big_palooka said: This is where I'm at. Don't settle for a QB. If you want one, you better be convinced he's the right one to develop. Penix is the girl you take home from the bar at 2am because you struck out on the hotties earlier that night. And this is why my guess for pick 13 is Penix. The other Qbs will be gone, and they will grab him without 'risking' a trade back or trade up later in the first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RaidersAreOne Posted April 25 Share Posted April 25 Should we move discussion to here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickButera Posted April 25 Share Posted April 25 21 minutes ago, Frankie2Gunz said: This team is not a contender unless we draft a superstar QB, I would argue that this is 99% of all NFL teams over the years. The only exception I see is SF. If you don't have a superstar QB you aren't a contender. But you can't get one by not drafting QB's. We have different philosophies for sure. Building The Team philosophy isn't wrong, 100%. I'll still be excited if that's our approach hoping we can become the next SF. But that's a once in a million shot, hit on a superstar coach, hit on multiple years of draft picks, getting the right free agents in.....you have to get it all right in consecutive years. And that's similar odds to drafting a superstar QB with just 1 shot IMO. I'd rather do that every 2 years.... but that's just where my head is at right now with this team. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickButera Posted April 25 Share Posted April 25 That's a fair point. Let's move Draft talk to the Draft Day thread, picks will stay updated on Page 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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