2023 Around the League

[Ty21]

15 hours ago, beardown3231 said:

I still have no idea what Poles saw when they took Jones in the 3rd round. I will just never get it

Position of necessity. After him went Jalen Tolbert (12 career yards), David Bell (214), Danny Gray (10), Erik Ezukanma (3), Calvin Austin (0), Khalil Shakir (161), Montreal Washington (2), Kyle Phillips (78), Jalen Nailor (179), Michael Woods (45), Bo Melton (0), Dareke Young (24), Samori Toure (82). Rashid Shaheed went for 488, but since he was UDFA, no one saw that coming. So each of these guys, if taken over Jones are just as aggravating on our roster probably if we’d taken them instead. Just kinda had to take what we could get. Didn’t love it then but needing to address the position, I get it. I of course left of Romeo Doubs, who has shown flashes of ability as a late 4RP with 425 yds, but I sincerely doubt he gets even half that for us last year. 

[beardown3231]

42 minutes ago, Ty21 said:

Position of necessity. After him went Jalen Tolbert (12 career yards), David Bell (214), Danny Gray (10), Erik Ezukanma (3), Calvin Austin (0), Khalil Shakir (161), Montreal Washington (2), Kyle Phillips (78), Jalen Nailor (179), Michael Woods (45), Bo Melton (0), Dareke Young (24), Samori Toure (82). Rashid Shaheed went for 488, but since he was UDFA, no one saw that coming. So each of these guys, if taken over Jones are just as aggravating on our roster probably if we’d taken them instead. Just kinda had to take what we could get. Didn’t love it then but needing to address the position, I get it. I of course left of Romeo Doubs, who has shown flashes of ability as a late 4RP with 425 yds, but I sincerely doubt he gets even half that for us last year. 

How about Pickens over Gordon & Marcus Jones over Velus Jones? Not only can Jones play corner but he's a good PR so it fills that need too

[AZBearsFan]

12 minutes ago, Ty21 said:

Position of necessity. After him went Jalen Tolbert (12 career yards), David Bell (214), Danny Gray (10), Erik Ezukanma (3), Calvin Austin (0), Khalil Shakir (161), Montreal Washington (2), Kyle Phillips (78), Jalen Nailor (179), Michael Woods (45), Bo Melton (0), Dareke Young (24), Samori Toure (82). Rashid Shaheed went for 488, but since he was UDFA, no one saw that coming. So each of these guys, if taken over Jones are just as aggravating on our roster probably if we’d taken them instead. Just kinda had to take what we could get. Didn’t love it then but needing to address the position, I get it. I of course left of Romeo Doubs, who has shown flashes of ability as a late 4RP with 425 yds, but I sincerely doubt he gets even half that for us last year. 

You make a strong point here. Breaking him down further (because I’m a sick person, apparently), looking relative to Velus’ touches he actually made quite a few explosive plays.

He only had 14 targets (7 catches) and 9 rushes on offense. 23 potential plays in 12 games active. He had a very selective, limited role. From that he produced 4 chunk plays (18 yard run vs. Dallas, 44 yard catch vs. Buffalo, 42 yard TD run vs. MIN and 28 yard catch vs MIN). 17.3% of his offensive looks and 25% of his actual touches (excluding incompletions) went for chunk plays. That ratio is actually really good. He also had 3 KR of over 40 yards from 22 returns (55 yards vs. ATL, 42 yards vs. GB and 63 yards vs. DET). Again, a pretty good ratio. There was a decent amount of good there as a rookie relative to his role. He often gets talked about like he was useless - he wasn’t.

The problems with Velus IMO are two fold: 

- It appears he was overdrafted (not his fault), and his draft status has people expecting more from him than they probably should; and

- He’s been miscast as a PR, which he is not (also not his fault)

Take Velus’ PR woes in 2022 out of the equation and perception of him is far different IMO. Take his rookie year offensive and KR production relative to role and apply it to a player taken in round 5-6 (where he was projected by most) and most people are probably pretty satisfied and pleased with him.

Now, hopefully the coaching staff sees what we see about him not being a PR and stops putting him in position to fail there, because outside of that he is an asset - just not the one you’d hope for from the 71st overall pick. A sizable part of maximizing a player comes from learning what they can’t do. Here’s hoping the coaching staff does that here moving forward. 

[Ty21]

2 minutes ago, beardown3231 said:

How about Pickens over Gordon & Marcus Jones over Velus Jones? Not only can Jones play corner but he's a good PR so it fills that need too

Eberflus is a defensive minded coach, his first two picks being DEF seems only natural. Pickens is a very gimmicky receiver. He may have top 5 ball skills downfield from what I’ve seen, but he also has the least complex route tree in the league. It’s just a walking stick. Idk how much value a strictly 50/50 ball guy has to me. A 50/50 ball guy with clear character concerns when he doesn’t get his way. 

[Ty21]

5 minutes ago, AZBearsFan said:

Take Velus’ PR woes in 2022 out of the equation and perception of him is far different IMO. Take his rookie year offensive and KR production relative to role and apply it to a player taken in round 5-6 (where he was projected by most) and most people are probably pretty satisfied and pleased with him

Take Velus and have him get drafted by the packers with the same production and their fans would all be d***hard about him 

[AZBearsFan]

1 minute ago, Ty21 said:

Eberflus is a defensive minded coach, his first two picks being DEF seems only natural. Pickens is a very gimmicky receiver. He may have top 5 ball skills downfield from what I’ve seen, but he also has the least complex route tree in the league. It’s just a walking stick. Idk how much value a strictly 50/50 ball guy has to me. A 50/50 ball guy with clear character concerns when he doesn’t get his way. 

Mentioned this a while back - Pickens impressed as a rookie, but so did Chase Claypool (more so than Pickens as a rookie tbh). Vince Young was OROY. Baker Mayfield was runner up to Saquon for OROY. Anthony Thomas was OROY for us in 2001. Not saying Pickens will have the same career path as any of these guys, but favorable first year impressions aren’t always indicative of what’s to come.

[Ty21]

5 minutes ago, AZBearsFan said:

Mentioned this a while back - Pickens impressed as a rookie, but so did Chase Claypool (more so than Pickens as a rookie tbh). Vince Young was OROY. Baker Mayfield was runner up to Saquon for OROY. Anthony Thomas was OROY for us in 2001. Not saying Pickens will have the same career path as any of these guys, but favorable first year impressions aren’t always indicative of what’s to come.

You’re right, but I don’t know if that’s the case for Pickens. He won’t fizzle, but what he’s done thus far is what I think is what they have. Unless they change their offense or ask differently of their receivers, he’s just gonna be the Brandon Lloyd splash play guy 

[StLunatic88]

41 minutes ago, AZBearsFan said:

Take Velus’ PR woes in 2022 out of the equation and perception of him is far different IMO. Take his rookie year offensive and KR production relative to role and apply it to a player taken in round 5-6 (where he was projected by most) and most people are probably pretty satisfied and pleased with him.

But he wasnt, and that does matter when you are looking at what production he brings to the team. He also wasnt just a 3rd rounder, he was a Top 75 pick, and you need to atleast somewhat hit on those picks. We also then didnt make a selection for nearly 100 picks after him, so it really sits in peoples minds. 

And Im not sure even if he was a 7th round selection that anyone would be "satisfied" or "pleased" with anything he has done. They would probably barely think about him, no more than they do about Daurice Fountain or Nasimba Webster. Because outside of 2 plays, he has accounted for 6 rec for 63 yards, and 8 carries for 61 yards. Thats 8.8 yards per touch, that barely registers on the radar. 

And doing things like saying "its not his fault" about where he was drafted, or absolving him of his PR issues is just making more excuses. 

Im not saying Velus cant be some sort of contributor on an NFL team (he would still need to improve a bunch to do that), but when you/larger media types try to smear lipstick on a pig, pretending he has been anything other than a disappointment so far is only going to turn the tide against him in most eyes.

Its the same thing most are doing with Bagnet right now, completely over blowing the reality that these guys more than likely wont be on our roster in 2 years, and out of the league in a few more after that. 

[HuskieBear]

13 hours ago, AZBearsFan said:

Sure, but the other side of that coin is that him making “just” $16M next year and the year after as he’s currently set may have him holding out after 2023 if he has a huge season this year too. That’s almost always going to be a concern for guys at the top of their respective positions. 

i meant to put "worry" in quotes, but yeah

[beardown3231]

4 hours ago, Ty21 said:

Eberflus is a defensive minded coach, his first two picks being DEF seems only natural. Pickens is a very gimmicky receiver. He may have top 5 ball skills downfield from what I’ve seen, but he also has the least complex route tree in the league. It’s just a walking stick. Idk how much value a strictly 50/50 ball guy has to me. A 50/50 ball guy with clear character concerns when he doesn’t get his way. 

Velus isn't top 5 in anything, and if you want to say Pickens is gimmicky, what does that make Velus? If Pickens is 50/50, what's Velus? 15/85? Look, be it as it may, the Bears suck and the Steelers are a great organization. If they think that highly of Pickens, maybe the Bears should too rather than reaching on a track star who can't play football at all

[Ty21]

28 minutes ago, beardown3231 said:

Velus isn't top 5 in anything, and if you want to say Pickens is gimmicky, what does that make Velus? If Pickens is 50/50, what's Velus? 15/85? Look, be it as it may, the Bears suck and the Steelers are a great organization. If they think that highly of Pickens, maybe the Bears should too rather than reaching on a track star who can't play football at all

Velus was top 5 in 40 yard dash speed at the combine. Not that I’m defending Velus; if he gets released, I won’t cry. Pickens has had several instances of exploding on the sideline, something Poles and Flus don’t condone. And it would be worse here because obviously he wouldn’t match Steelers receiving production because almost no teams can do what the Steelers have done in the last 20 years with sometimes even suboptimal talent. This is an arbitrary argument though because we’re on the same page about Velus and I do understand Pickens’ value on August 30,2023. The argument is only Pickens vs Gordon and Brisker. If one busts, we can look back and say damn we should’ve taken Tom Brady in the 6th round. But as it stands, with Gordon and Brisker both flashing, I’m not remiss about how we went about addressing the positions. 

[Ty21]

I will concede that Pickens here would’ve likely saved our 2nd rounder this year, which could’ve snowballed into extra picks in a trade down or Porter Jr, then another position of need with the latter 2’s. 

[StLunatic88]

34 minutes ago, Ty21 said:

I will concede that Pickens here would’ve likely saved our 2nd rounder this year, which could’ve snowballed into extra picks in a trade down or Porter Jr, then another position of need with the latter 2’s. 

It could have also very easily cost us #1 overall, and DJ Moore and the future Draft Capital from Carolina and..... (you see where Im going)

Its also not like it wasd Pickens vs Velus, honestly Pickens name should never be brought up when we talk Velus, he wasnt an option at Pick 71, but you know who was Abraham Lucas...

[Ty21]

6 minutes ago, StLunatic88 said:

It could have also very easily cost us #1 overall, and DJ Moore and the future Draft Capital from Carolina and..... (you see where Im going)

Its also not like it wasd Pickens vs Velus, honestly Pickens name should never be brought up when we talk Velus, he wasnt an option at Pick 71, but you know who was Abraham Lucas...

Velus played a pretty pivotal role in getting us #1 in retrospect 

[AZBearsFan]

7 hours ago, StLunatic88 said:

But he wasnt, and that does matter when you are looking at what production he brings to the team. He also wasnt just a 3rd rounder, he was a Top 75 pick, and you need to atleast somewhat hit on those picks. We also then didnt make a selection for nearly 100 picks after him, so it really sits in peoples minds. 

And Im not sure even if he was a 7th round selection that anyone would be "satisfied" or "pleased" with anything he has done. They would probably barely think about him, no more than they do about Daurice Fountain or Nasimba Webster. Because outside of 2 plays, he has accounted for 6 rec for 63 yards, and 8 carries for 61 yards. Thats 8.8 yards per touch, that barely registers on the radar. 

And doing things like saying "its not his fault" about where he was drafted, or absolving him of his PR issues is just making more excuses. 

Im not saying Velus cant be some sort of contributor on an NFL team (he would still need to improve a bunch to do that), but when you/larger media types try to smear lipstick on a pig, pretending he has been anything other than a disappointment so far is only going to turn the tide against him in most eyes.

Its the same thing most are doing with Bagnet right now, completely over blowing the reality that these guys more than likely wont be on our roster in 2 years, and out of the league in a few more after that. 

To be clear, I’m not trying to absolve Velus of anything nor make excuses for him. My point was that Velus didn’t draft Velus in R3, and that draft status certainly placed expectations upon him he could probably never meet. He hasn’t good enough, but he has been put in position to fail and disappoint given his skill set too. Both are true IMO. 

He does make plays when he gets the ball in his hands, and that speed is electric, but the glaring deficiencies in that skill set also make it really hard to get him the ball within the normal scope of the game and that’s obviously a massive issue for which nobody is excusing him. I don’t think any of that is putting lipstick on a pig. He reminds me A TON of Jerome Mathis. A 4.26 40 on its own got Mathis drafted in the middle rounds, but ultimately he was a super fast guy without an NFL role, and he was out of the league in 3 years. Odds are incredibly high that Velus has the same career arc. 

I agree with you that had he been a late round pick most would barely think about him more than they do guys like Williamson or Travis Bell. The discussions for those guys, especially as rookies, are “Can they help on ST?” or “Can they fill a small role?”. Those are the expectations Velus’ skill set warranted, but the draft status didn’t afford him that. It’s very clear to me (and likely most everyone else) that the draft status is the only reason he’s still around because he hasn’t shown nearly enough to receive the benefit of the doubt after 1 year and 1 preseason. Really fast guys get more of a leash to show they can be useful in the NFL than others because you can’t teach that speed, but it’s not indefinite, and Velus is already well into his nine lives here. With the addition of Trent Taylor I don’t even see a path to being game day active for Jones, which puts him right at the top of the list of guys who are expendable when roster back fill needs come up during the season.