SteelKing728 Posted June 9, 2023 Share Posted June 9, 2023 Who are your top 5 returners? This applies for KR and PR. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngusMcFife Posted June 10, 2023 Share Posted June 10, 2023 Cordarrelle Patterson is the greatest KR in NFL history. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nabbs4u Posted June 12, 2023 Share Posted June 12, 2023 On 6/9/2023 at 11:22 PM, AngusMcFife said: Cordarrelle Patterson is the greatest KR in NFL history. He might not even be top 3. Cribbs Mitchell Hester Sayers .....? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngusMcFife Posted June 12, 2023 Share Posted June 12, 2023 36 minutes ago, Nabbs4u said: He might not even be top 3. Cribbs Mitchell Hester Sayers .....? Sayers is the only one in the conversation, but he just didn't return that many kick offs. Only 91 kick returns for his career. Mitchell and Hester aren't even close in terms of TD% or average return yards. Cribbs is closer, but still not in Patterson's ballpark. Patterson 29.5 avg, 9 TDs in 266 attempts Cribbs 26.1 avg, 8 TDs in 426 attempts Mitchell 23.1 avg, 4 TDs in 607 attempts Hester 24.9 avg, 5 TDs in 295 attempts Sayers 30.6 avg, 6 TDs in 91 attempts Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adamq Posted June 12, 2023 Share Posted June 12, 2023 Shoutout to Jacoby Jones. He was a guy you were always afraid of kicking it to.. not only lightning quick with top end speed, but he was also a massive dude 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BetterCallSaul Posted June 12, 2023 Share Posted June 12, 2023 On 6/9/2023 at 11:22 PM, AngusMcFife said: Cordarrelle Patterson is the greatest KR in NFL history. 😆 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soko Posted June 12, 2023 Share Posted June 12, 2023 11 hours ago, AngusMcFife said: Sayers is the only one in the conversation, but he just didn't return that many kick offs. Only 91 kick returns for his career. Mitchell and Hester aren't even close in terms of TD% or average return yards. Cribbs is closer, but still not in Patterson's ballpark. Patterson 29.5 avg, 9 TDs in 266 attempts Cribbs 26.1 avg, 8 TDs in 426 attempts Mitchell 23.1 avg, 4 TDs in 607 attempts Hester 24.9 avg, 5 TDs in 295 attempts Sayers 30.6 avg, 6 TDs in 91 attempts The kick returns were made easier in 2010. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngusMcFife Posted June 12, 2023 Share Posted June 12, 2023 1 hour ago, Soko said: The kick returns were made easier in 2010. Historically KR average has fluctuated from ~19 to 23 yards per return. 2010 is not really an inflection point at all, though. KR average was highest in the 1960s (~23), it gradually got worse until 1990 (~19), but then quickly rebounded to ~22 by the mid-to-late 1990s. In 2009 the KR average was 22.6, and in 2022 it was 22.8. Not really sure where you are getting your numbers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TankWilliams Posted June 12, 2023 Share Posted June 12, 2023 16 hours ago, AngusMcFife said: Sayers is the only one in the conversation, but he just didn't return that many kick offs. Only 91 kick returns for his career. Mitchell and Hester aren't even close in terms of TD% or average return yards. Cribbs is closer, but still not in Patterson's ballpark. Patterson 29.5 avg, 9 TDs in 266 attempts Cribbs 26.1 avg, 8 TDs in 426 attempts Mitchell 23.1 avg, 4 TDs in 607 attempts Hester 24.9 avg, 5 TDs in 295 attempts Sayers 30.6 avg, 6 TDs in 91 attempts Not saying any of those players are better than Patterson, but it is probably worth noting that the changes to the kickoff rules over the past couple of years probably have some sway over that number of return attempts. Now that touchbacks grant an extra 5 yards (at the 25 vs the 20), as well as some of the other changes, I'm willing to bet that Patterson is pickier with which kickoffs he returns compared to what he would if the old rules were still in place. It would probably bring down the average, though maybe that would also bring along an extra TD or two. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soko Posted June 12, 2023 Share Posted June 12, 2023 2 hours ago, AngusMcFife said: Historically KR average has fluctuated from ~19 to 23 yards per return. 2010 is not really an inflection point at all, though. KR average was highest in the 1960s (~23), it gradually got worse until 1990 (~19), but then quickly rebounded to ~22 by the mid-to-late 1990s. In 2009 the KR average was 22.6, and in 2022 it was 22.8. Not really sure where you are getting your numbers. From 1980-2010, the highest average return was 22.8 in 2008. From 2011-now, it’s been greater than or equal to that number seven times. Between 2008 and 2011, can we think of any special teams rule changes that may have made returning kicks easier? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngusMcFife Posted June 12, 2023 Share Posted June 12, 2023 50 minutes ago, Soko said: From 1980-2010, the highest average return was 22.8 in 2008. From 2011-now, it’s been greater than or equal to that number seven times. Between 2008 and 2011, can we think of any special teams rule changes that may have made returning kicks easier? You mean in 2009, when the league banned wedge-blocks for the returning team? Anyhow, there was certainly an uptick in return average in the early 2010s, but the numbers went back down after the mid-2010s. The uptick was only about 1 yard per return, however. Patterson's average KR average and TD per return blows away his contemporaries. Even when you adjust for league context Patterson is the best. I'm surprised by this pushback that Patterson is the greatest KR in history. His numbers are clearly amazing, with only Gale Sayers besting him on a per return basis. If you don't think he's the best, feel free to suggest alternatives. I will accept Sayers but his total returns are very low. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngusMcFife Posted June 12, 2023 Share Posted June 12, 2023 1 hour ago, TankWilliams said: Not saying any of those players are better than Patterson, but it is probably worth noting that the changes to the kickoff rules over the past couple of years probably have some sway over that number of return attempts. Now that touchbacks grant an extra 5 yards (at the 25 vs the 20), as well as some of the other changes, I'm willing to bet that Patterson is pickier with which kickoffs he returns compared to what he would if the old rules were still in place. It would probably bring down the average, though maybe that would also bring along an extra TD or two. That rule change was implemented in 2018. Patterson had already established himself as God-tier KR before then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scar988 Posted June 12, 2023 Share Posted June 12, 2023 I'd argue that Devin Hester is the best PR of all time. That Patterson is the best KR of all time. The guy who did both the best was Josh Cribbs. But Brian Mitchell, Allen Rossum, and Desmond Howard all deserve mentions here. They were all fantastic at both as well. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TankWilliams Posted June 12, 2023 Share Posted June 12, 2023 1 hour ago, AngusMcFife said: That rule change was implemented in 2018. Patterson had already established himself as God-tier KR before then. https://www.footballzebras.com/2018/05/chronology-of-kickoff-rules-changes/ According to this (and maybe its wrong, my memory is fuzzy) it was first voted in in 2016, extended in 2017, and made permanent in 2018. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngusMcFife Posted June 12, 2023 Share Posted June 12, 2023 1 hour ago, TankWilliams said: https://www.footballzebras.com/2018/05/chronology-of-kickoff-rules-changes/ According to this (and maybe its wrong, my memory is fuzzy) it was first voted in in 2016, extended in 2017, and made permanent in 2018. Thanks for the info. I think my point stands that Patterson's dominance was established 2013-2015, when he scored 4 TDs and led the league twice in KR averaged with over 31 yards per attempt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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