Position Battles 2023

[dll2000]

Not a starting job battle, which is context people usually put these.  But I don't think both Mooney and Claypool get extensions.   Even if they both play well.  

To me the Mooney vs. Claypool battle for a new WR contract is most interesting position battle in 2023.

Most podcasters over Spring have been saying Claypool will be the guy.  Here are the reasons they have given:

1) Poles traded for Claypool and didn't draft Mooney.  Call it pride or vested interest or whatever. 

2) Claypool is much bigger than Mooney and just as fast.

3) Tyler Scott is a Mooney clone.  Poles would rather have different body types at WR.  

4) Mooney is coming off a serious injury.  

I disagree.  Now I concede Claypool may win the contest as the above argument is not entirely without merit.  Which is what makes it an interesting battle.  It is not a foregone conclusion either way.    

Let me address above arguments first:

1)  Yes on surface Poles has not wanted to keep many guys from Pace regime around.  But many of those guys he didn't keep were simply not good players or didn't want to be here.  In case of Mack, Hicks, Roquan, Quinn, and Nichols it was a matter of getting future resources and/or dumping salary off a team that was not in win now mode.   Not a dislike for someone not being 'his' guy.  

He has not looked to get rid of Fields, Mooney, Whitehair, Jackson, Johnson or Kmet just because.  He could have drafted a QB at 1 and gotten a 'his' guy.   All of those other guys save Whitehair and Jackson had decent to good trade value.

Having your guys versus his guys is a sign of immaturity.  I wouldn't put that on Poles at this time.  I think the correct analysis is can this guy play and is he worth the money right now? Not who drafted him originally.

He has stated a like for Mooney from the beginning and rightly so.  

I believe he traded for Claypool because Poles saw the FA WR market for young players was going to be weak (and it was and is) and he obviously didn't know he would have an opportunity to trade for DJ Moore following the season.  

It doesn't make Claypool his guy and Mooney someone else's guy despite the media narrative on it.  Or it wouldn't for me.  It was a move Poles felt necessary for the time and place he was in.  

2) Claypool does not play big.   He is more of a finesse and outside speed player.  Mooney on other hand does play big.   He is a ferocious blocker.   So much so Bears have occasionally used him as a between the tackle lead blocker which is insane to me.  

I don't think size will be a deciding factor.  It will be production and health.   Perhaps contract demands.

3) Tyler Scott is small and very fast.  That doesn't mean he is Darnell Mooney any more than it means that Claypool is Calvin Johnson or Julio Jones.

Just because they have similar body types doesn't mean Scott is best suited to replace Mooney and not Claypool.   Scott has not shown he can block like Mooney or get open in intermediate routes like Mooney has shown.

4)This I don't know.  I do know Mooney will work very hard to come back from any injury.  

Conclusion:

First, let me say I want them both to be really good and have great years.  A hard decision on who to extend because both played great is a great problem to have.   

If I had to predict I give the nod to Mooney.   Here is why:

1) Mooney is driven to be great.  I think some of that is because he isn't the biggest guy.   He didn't go to a football power as a five star recruit.   He wasn't highly drafted.   Etc. Etc.

I think some of that is just him.   He is more competitive than most people.   He works harder than them.   He wants it more.  He gets there early and leaves late.  He attaches himself to Fields hip.    He rehabs extra hard when injured and comes back early.

I remember many years ago a sports lady on early internet was saying to me under a post of picture of '85 Bears doing SB shuffle,  "What is deal with Gary Fencik?  He looks like a wimp."  Or something along those lines.    I said, look at Walter Payton.  Does he look like a monster to you?  Would you assume he is a wimp?  They have big hearts and they play big.  She actually agreed.  One of two times in 30 years I think I have changed someone's mind on internet.  

2) Pittsburgh was perfectly fine moving on from Claypool.  They were delighted to get a 2nd round pick.    If Claypool had the above drive of Mooney there is no question he would be a number 1 wide receiver given his physical gifts. 

 It doesn't mean he can't still be really good, because he is so supremely talented.   When you play or coach you often think to yourself as you watch your team or teammates, if I could put that guys brain into that guys body I would really have something.   

That is Mooney and Claypool in a nutshell.

3) Now lest you think I am all roses on Mooney, it was clear in 2022 he was not talented enough to be the guy in absence of talent around him.   It was shown teams could take him away if they didn't have to worry about someone else. 

But honestly that isn't really much of a knock.   That is true of all but a handful of players in any given year.   I am not claiming Mooney is a number 1 or a special player. 

What I am claiming is he has shown an ability to get seperation and get open when a team is not focused exclusively on stopping him.   From nearly time he started he has been Bears only real big play threat and he has still managed to make big plays.

So at end of day if I had to choose one in July of 2023 to get a new contract following season, I am choosing Mooney.  

 

[dll2000]

All things barring injury of course.

WRs (assuming they keep 6)

Moore, Claypool, Mooney are all locks.

Teams almost never cut 4th rounders in first year and they aren't putting him on practice squad unprotected so Scott is a lock as well.  That's four.

That leaves two jobs for Velus Jones, St. Brown and Dante Pettis.  And one of those has to be able to return kicks.   That is the battle.  

  Who will be odd man out?

St. Brown:

St. Brown can't return kicks.  He is too slow.  But he is arguably best blocking WR on team.  He is an outstanding blocker and not a bad possession WR if he has help around him.   

Pettis:

Pettis can return kicks.  Fields likes him, but he just isn't that good.   Here is a blurb from last year on Pettis from week 5 versus Vikings:

"His receivers let him down at times, however. Dante Pettis had two targets, both on third down, and he dropped them both. He also had a key dropped pass on third down last week as well."

Velus Jones:

Velus Jones muffed a punt in a key moment in a lethargic Washington game and everyone remembers it more than all other events for some reason.

Velus caught a higher percentage of balls, was explosive in KR game in a way few other players in league were and was explosive running the ball for Bears.

Plus he was a 3rd round pick last year, so it would be very early to give up on him.   Very few 3rd rounders get cut in year 2.

I thought his sliding catch late in year was very impressive.   He was always impressive with ball in his hands.   I don't cut explosive play makers unless they have no hands.

So I say Velus Jones makes it.  

So who is odd man out of Pettis and St. Brown?

I say St. Brown.   I have to say as a pure WR I prefer him over Pettis.  He provides a good catch radius and adds a lot to run game. 

But, he isn't good enough as a WR to justify his lack of return ability.   I'd put St. Brown on practice squad and use him as depth.    

 

[dll2000]

Offensive Line

They probably keep 9 OL on roster.  

The Bears starting five is set.

Jones, Jenkins, Whitehair, Davis, Wright.

Beyond that things get interesting for remaining 4.

Swing tackle on paper is either Borom or Leatherwood.   I have no faith in Leatherwood at OT.   Borom played poorly at OT last year, but he has played good games at OT.  I have yet to see Leatherwood play anything other than horrible at OT.

Edge:  Borom.

But I think because of Leatherwoods contract they are likely to keep him.  I don't want Leatherwood, but I think he stays.   So 2 spots remain.

I think it is between Carter, Eislen and Patrick.

Carter is in for sure I think.   They kept him last year and let Zach Thomas get snatched by Rams.  (A move I didn't like).  So they like his potential a great deal.

So last two spots are between Dieter and Patrick.   I personally prefer Dieter.  But to me this is most intriguing battle.

Dieter came in as project and has been steadily improving each year.   He got two significant reg. season games last year that I recall.  One he played good and one he played bad.  

Patrick was really bad last year at guard.  But he was brought in to play center.   Dieter is cheaper.  

Edge: Patrick (but may be closer than we think).

 

 

[JibjeResearch]

On 7/5/2023 at 1:42 PM, dll2000 said:

Not a starting job battle, which is context people usually put these.  But I don't think both Mooney and Claypool get extensions.   Even if they both play well.  

To me the Mooney vs. Claypool battle for a new WR contract is most interesting position battle in 2023.

Most podcasters over Spring have been saying Claypool will be the guy.  Here are the reasons they have given:

1) Poles traded for Claypool and didn't draft Mooney.  Call it pride or vested interest or whatever. 

2) Claypool is much bigger than Mooney and just as fast.

3) Tyler Scott is a Mooney clone.  Poles would rather have different body types at WR.  

4) Mooney is coming off a serious injury.  

I disagree.  Now I concede Claypool may win the contest as the above argument is not entirely without merit.  Which is what makes it an interesting battle.  It is not a foregone conclusion either way.    

Let me address above arguments first:

1)  Yes on surface Poles has not wanted to keep many guys from Pace regime around.  But many of those guys he didn't keep were simply not good players or didn't want to be here.  In case of Mack, Hicks, Roquan, Quinn, and Nichols it was a matter of getting future resources and/or dumping salary off a team that was not in win now mode.   Not a dislike for someone not being 'his' guy.  

He has not looked to get rid of Fields, Mooney, Whitehair, Jackson, Johnson or Kmet just because.  He could have drafted a QB at 1 and gotten a 'his' guy.   All of those other guys save Whitehair and Jackson had decent to good trade value.

Having your guys versus his guys is a sign of immaturity.  I wouldn't put that on Poles at this time.  I think the correct analysis is can this guy play and is he worth the money right now? Not who drafted him originally.

He has stated a like for Mooney from the beginning and rightly so.  

I believe he traded for Claypool because Poles saw the FA WR market for young players was going to be weak (and it was and is) and he obviously didn't know he would have an opportunity to trade for DJ Moore following the season.  

It doesn't make Claypool his guy and Mooney someone else's guy despite the media narrative on it.  Or it wouldn't for me.  It was a move Poles felt necessary for the time and place he was in.  

2) Claypool does not play big.   He is more of a finesse and outside speed player.  Mooney on other hand does play big.   He is a ferocious blocker.   So much so Bears have occasionally used him as a between the tackle lead blocker which is insane to me.  

I don't think size will be a deciding factor.  It will be production and health.   Perhaps contract demands.

3) Tyler Scott is small and very fast.  That doesn't mean he is Darnell Mooney any more than it means that Claypool is Calvin Johnson or Julio Jones.

Just because they have similar body types doesn't mean Scott is best suited to replace Mooney and not Claypool.   Scott has not shown he can block like Mooney or get open in intermediate routes like Mooney has shown.

4)This I don't know.  I do know Mooney will work very hard to come back from any injury.  

Conclusion:

First, let me say I want them both to be really good and have great years.  A hard decision on who to extend because both played great is a great problem to have.   

If I had to predict I give the nod to Mooney.   Here is why:

1) Mooney is driven to be great.  I think some of that is because he isn't the biggest guy.   He didn't go to a football power as a five star recruit.   He wasn't highly drafted.   Etc. Etc.

I think some of that is just him.   He is more competitive than most people.   He works harder than them.   He wants it more.  He gets there early and leaves late.  He attaches himself to Fields hip.    He rehabs extra hard when injured and comes back early.

I remember many years ago a sports lady on early internet was saying to me under a post of picture of '85 Bears doing SB shuffle,  "What is deal with Gary Fencik?  He looks like a wimp."  Or something along those lines.    I said, look at Walter Payton.  Does he look like a monster to you?  Would you assume he is a wimp?  They have big hearts and they play big.  She actually agreed.  One of two times in 30 years I think I have changed someone's mind on internet.  

2) Pittsburgh was perfectly fine moving on from Claypool.  They were delighted to get a 2nd round pick.    If Claypool had the above drive of Mooney there is no question he would be a number 1 wide receiver given his physical gifts. 

 It doesn't mean he can't still be really good, because he is so supremely talented.   When you play or coach you often think to yourself as you watch your team or teammates, if I could put that guys brain into that guys body I would really have something.   

That is Mooney and Claypool in a nutshell.

3) Now lest you think I am all roses on Mooney, it was clear in 2022 he was not talented enough to be the guy in absence of talent around him.   It was shown teams could take him away if they didn't have to worry about someone else. 

But honestly that isn't really much of a knock.   That is true of all but a handful of players in any given year.   I am not claiming Mooney is a number 1 or a special player. 

What I am claiming is he has shown an ability to get seperation and get open when a team is not focused exclusively on stopping him.   From nearly time he started he has been Bears only real big play threat and he has still managed to make big plays.

So at end of day if I had to choose one in July of 2023 to get a new contract following season, I am choosing Mooney.  

 

For Mooney, Claypool, Velus, Kmet, Gipson, Johnson, and other final year players, keep whoever plays well for the Bears in the present.

We have Two 1st rd, a 2nd rd, a 3rd rd, and Two 4th rds, in addition to $100Million of cap space to make the team better.

I think Pole will not play favoritism because it's bad for business.

[beardown3231]

On 7/6/2023 at 3:56 PM, dll2000 said:

All things barring injury of course.

WRs (assuming they keep 6)

Moore, Claypool, Mooney are all locks.

Teams almost never cut 4th rounders in first year and they aren't putting him on practice squad unprotected so Scott is a lock as well.  That's four.

That leaves two jobs for Velus Jones, St. Brown and Dante Pettis.  And one of those has to be able to return kicks.   That is the battle.  

  Who will be odd man out?

St. Brown:

St. Brown can't return kicks.  He is too slow.  But he is arguably best blocking WR on team.  He is an outstanding blocker and not a bad possession WR if he has help around him.   

Pettis:

Pettis can return kicks.  Fields likes him, but he just isn't that good.   Here is a blurb from last year on Pettis from week 5 versus Vikings:

"His receivers let him down at times, however. Dante Pettis had two targets, both on third down, and he dropped them both. He also had a key dropped pass on third down last week as well."

Velus Jones:

Velus Jones muffed a punt in a key moment in a lethargic Washington game and everyone remembers it more than all other events for some reason.

Velus caught a higher percentage of balls, was explosive in KR game in a way few other players in league were and was explosive running the ball for Bears.

Plus he was a 3rd round pick last year, so it would be very early to give up on him.   Very few 3rd rounders get cut in year 2.

I thought his sliding catch late in year was very impressive.   He was always impressive with ball in his hands.   I don't cut explosive play makers unless they have no hands.

So I say Velus Jones makes it.  

So who is odd man out of Pettis and St. Brown?

I say St. Brown.   I have to say as a pure WR I prefer him over Pettis.  He provides a good catch radius and adds a lot to run game. 

But, he isn't good enough as a WR to justify his lack of return ability.   I'd put St. Brown on practice squad and use him as depth.    

 

Let's not pretend that was Jones' only muffed punt. Either way, while I could see him being cut, it's more likely than not he stays. My money would be on Pettis getting cut

[Epyon]

I wouldn't be shocked with either St. Brown or Pettis making that final slot (or even both on the roster by mid year if/when an inevitable injury happens)...... but I also see them both as fringe depth guys that may get bumped off by another guy in that same mold, like if someone better that's still cheap becomes available, or if one of the long shots pans out. Thyrick Pitts is an interesting such long shot to me, since he ran a 4.37 @ 6ft3in but I've also heard zero hype about any of those same fringe guys from OTAs so who knows. I also liked Daurice Fountain coming out (he had a great senior bowl and showed great route running and decent size, just lacked speed/explosiveness if memory serves), but he's also on year 4 and still hasn't put it together, so likely he just is what he is at this point.

Regardless, whether they're on the team or not, or replaced mid season or not, I think they're probably even below Velus on the depth chart (since he still has potential to turn it around), and fighting for that last, frankly irrelevant, spot.

Edited July 9, 2023 by Epyon

[AZBearsFan]

Re: Mooney vs. Claypool: If either has a leg up heading into the year it’s Mooney IMO (assuming health). While it’s easy to say Mooney couldn’t ever be a #1 last year (he obviously didn’t produce as one at a quick glance at the stat sheet) I think there’s at least some mislead in that.

First off, nothing in our passing game worked last year in the first 3 weeks, and we only threw 15 passes per game in those weeks. Secondly, once we got beyond those first 3 weeks Mooney produced more efficiently in 2023 than in 2022 despite being our top target. Over the 8 games in which he played with Fields starting week 4 (he had no stats before getting hurt against the Jets in a game Fields missed): 50 targets, 36 receptions, 466 yards, 2 TD. That’s a 17-game pace of 77/990/4, in an offense that was only passing 23 times per game (just 183 total pass attempts in those 8 games). That’s actually really solid IMO. His 9.32 yards/target during that stretch would have been top 20 in the league (he was 7.5 ypt in 2021), and a 72% catch rate is outstanding as well. That’s also with him as the only legit threat at WR almost the entire time (Claypool didn’t arrive until week 9).

Personally I think unless he prices himself out of our budget or isn’t able to recover to pre-injury health Mooney will be a priority re-sign. If he were confirmed 100% healthy I think he would’ve already been extended. He’s young, productive, super fast, mature and highly driven. Those are the guys you want to keep and build around. By contrast, whether it’s true or narrative (or some combination of the two), there are questions about Claypool’s work ethic, and there has been pretty clear direct evidence to his lack of maturity both on the field and on social media. There are also questions about whether he will ever get out of his elite size and athleticism what he should. Those are guys who stick around in the league for a long time but also who tend to move from place to place. 

Re: Velus/ESB/Pettis: ESB, despite his obvious lack of receiving prowess, was a priority resign for the staff before 2022 ended (minimal deal, but prioritized keeping him here ahead of the offseason). Pettis on the other hand was a UFA for a month before he was re-signed, without any known interest elsewhere. That tells me ESB has a leg up there. Velus was a draft pick for this regime and has both potential (neither of the older guys have that at this point) and elite speed (ditto), and when he got the ball in his hands he made explosive plays. He’s already our primary KR, and he has the easiest path of the three to offensive reps on Sundays IMO even if he can’t be our PR. They’re already looking out Tyler Scott as a potential PR option too, and Scott is a roster lock.

Jones was pretty solid on coverage teams last year too, and he excelled as a runner at Tennessee. Ultimately, teams seldom just give up on players with electric, game breaking speed in year 2 in favor of 6th year journeymen with no upside like Pettis and ESB unless the player with electric speed shows that they have zero football value. Velus isn’t that, even if he never becomes a big part of the offense. 

[beardown3231]

Little does he know it may help him in the QB competition!!!

 

[Bigbear72]

6 minutes ago, beardown3231 said:

Little does he know it may help him in the QB competition!!!

 

😂🤣🤣

 

Also, you're an ***...lol.

[dll2000]

Claypool better get healthy quick. Contract year.  
 

 

[beardown3231]

24 minutes ago, dll2000 said:

Claypool better get healthy quick. Contract year.  
 

 

What did he hurt? And when did he hurt it?

[AZBearsFan]

2 minutes ago, beardown3231 said:

What did he hurt? And when did he hurt it?

He had some soft tissue stuff during OTAs that kept him out of a few workouts. Guessing the same stuff, though he looked totally fine when they did the whole web series on him in Europe so who knows. Curious timing for this though, since vets don’t even have to report until Tuesday. 

[Madmike90]

8 minutes ago, AZBearsFan said:

He had some soft tissue stuff during OTAs that kept him out of a few workouts. Guessing the same stuff, though he looked totally fine when they did the whole web series on him in Europe so who knows. Curious timing for this though, since vets don’t even have to report until Tuesday. 

Trade off?...

Be the guy to give up a fair chunk of your off-season doing promotional stuff in London & Paris and we will put you on PUP so you can miss the first few weeks of camp? 

Probably not and he has probably got a slight knock but crazier things have happened.

[beardown3231]

15 hours ago, Madmike90 said:

Trade off?...

Be the guy to give up a fair chunk of your off-season doing promotional stuff in London & Paris and we will put you on PUP so you can miss the first few weeks of camp? 

Probably not and he has probably got a slight knock but crazier things have happened.

If the Bears are giving him a week or two off because he volunteered to take a free trip Paris and London to promote football by playing the sport & talking about it, I'm actually not sure crazier things have happened to be honest

[AZBearsFan]

20 minutes ago, beardown3231 said:

If the Bears are giving him a week or two off because he volunteered to take a free trip Paris and London to promote football by playing the sport & talking about it, I'm actually not sure crazier things have happened to be honest

Agree - that’s not a thing.

With that said, until and unless this bleeds into practices and he misses time it’s a nothing burger for me. He can be taken off this at any time. On arrival at camp (2 days early) this might be nothing more than food poisoning. Not saying it’s that, but maybe let’s not make it a thing until it’s actually a thing.