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Ben McAdoo Fired


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18 minutes ago, mattbags2313 said:

WHAT DO YOU MEAN HES NOT HURT??? He needed season ending surgery???? He also had back, shoulder, and hip injuries that destroyed his 2016 season. Look it up. 

and you dont think straight at all. Your posts are the most criticized on this forum. First off rewatch the game. 1 of Eli's picks was a ball tipped at the line. Not his fault, just a play made by one of the best defenses in football. and regardless of the other pick, which yes was his fault, we still had a 4th quarter lead ON THREE DIFFERENT OCCASIONS!!!!! That almost never happens!! If the defense gets just one stop after any of those scorers the game is over. And I wouldnt blame Geno. I would blame the defense that couldnt get off the field. When you pay that much money for defense you expect results. 

Marshall accumulated some injuries this year, including when Eli threw him into traffic and injured him, same as when Eli overthrew Odell and injured Odell TWICE. Not ONCE but TWICE for NO REASON BUT LACK OF ABILITY. It wasn't the LINE. I can POST YOU THE GIFS!

My posts are the most criticized on the forum, and so what? That doesn't mean "I don't think straight". You're using the "mob fallacy" , argument from popularity,  to confirm I don't think straight. However you are wrong. People disagreeing with me that the Earth is round, or that Eli cost us points and the game by turning the ball over against Philly, does NOT mean I am "not thinking straight". My thinking is clearly straighter than yours. You make arguments using logical fallacies. 

I disagree you would blame Geno if he threw the picks Eli did. You would argue the total opposite, because you argue for Eli not on the basis of his performance, but because of what he did years ago. If Eli throws 10 interceptions in 1 game, YOU WOULD STILL SAY THE GAME WASN'T ELI's FAULT!

POINT BLANK:
ELI COST US POINTS WHEN HE TURNED THE BALL OVER. WE LOST BY A FG. IF PHILLY NEVER GETS THOSE DRIVES AND POINTS, WE LIKELY WIN THE GAME.  ELI IS TO BLAME FOR US LOSING THE GAME REGARDLESS!

 

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14 minutes ago, celestial said:

Marshall accumulated some injuries this year, including when Eli threw him into traffic and injured him, same as when Eli overthrew Odell and injured Odell TWICE. Not ONCE but TWICE for NO REASON BUT LACK OF ABILITY. It wasn't the LINE. I can POST YOU THE GIFS!

My posts are the most criticized on the forum, and so what? That doesn't mean "I don't think straight". You're using the "mob fallacy" , argument from popularity,  to confirm I don't think straight. However you are wrong. People disagreeing with me that the Earth is round, or that Eli cost us points and the game by turning the ball over against Philly, does NOT mean I am "not thinking straight". My thinking is clearly straighter than yours. You make arguments using logical fallacies. 

I disagree you would blame Geno if he threw the picks Eli did. You would argue the total opposite, because you argue for Eli not on the basis of his performance, but because of what he did years ago. If Eli throws 10 interceptions in 1 game, YOU WOULD STILL SAY THE GAME WASN'T ELI's FAULT!

POINT BLANK:
ELI COST US POINTS WHEN HE TURNED THE BALL OVER. WE LOST BY A FG. IF PHILLY NEVER GETS THOSE DRIVES AND POINTS, WE LIKELY WIN THE GAME.  ELI IS TO BLAME FOR US LOSING THE GAME REGARDLESS!

 

One you make it sound like Geno did not turn the ball over. When the defense or special teams gives the ball to Eli in the Redzone he is getting at least 3 points out of it.

Second it been proven working under a bad line can effect a QB, such as what David Carr had to undergo with the Texans. I think Eli with just an average o-line would be more accurate. This does not change my thoughts that we need to keep an eye on the future. Eli not Geno, gives us the best chance to win.

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17 minutes ago, celestial said:

Marshall accumulated some injuries this year, including when Eli threw him into traffic and injured him, same as when Eli overthrew Odell and injured Odell TWICE. Not ONCE but TWICE for NO REASON BUT LACK OF ABILITY. It wasn't the LINE. I can POST YOU THE GIFS!

My posts are the most criticized on the forum, and so what? That doesn't mean "I don't think straight". You're using the "mob fallacy" , argument from popularity,  to confirm I don't think straight. However you are wrong. People disagreeing with me that the Earth is round, or that Eli cost us points and the game by turning the ball over against Philly, does NOT mean I am "not thinking straight". My thinking is clearly straighter than yours. You make arguments using logical fallacies. 

I disagree you would blame Geno if he threw the picks Eli did. You would argue the total opposite, because you argue for Eli not on the basis of his performance, but because of what he did years ago. If Eli throws 10 interceptions in 1 game, YOU WOULD STILL SAY THE GAME WASN'T ELI's FAULT!

POINT BLANK:
ELI COST US POINTS WHEN HE TURNED THE BALL OVER. WE LOST BY A FG. IF PHILLY NEVER GETS THOSE DRIVES AND POINTS, WE LIKELY WIN THE GAME.  ELI IS TO BLAME FOR US LOSING THE GAME REGARDLESS!

 

you are the most laughable and  ignorant person Ive ever encountered in the football world and Ive been around this sport for probably longer than you have been alive.  Post your stupid gifs, while you are at it go back and watch every afl and nfl game ever and start posts gifs of receivers hurt on missed throws. It happens, its part of the game. 

 

and on the philly game you can go back and forth all day. End of the day we had a lead 3 times and 3 times the defense couldnt get  a stop. Another point to shoot you down with. Remember when mcadoo went for it on 4th and goal and we got stuffed? Kicked the FG and its a different game. You can break down every game at every level which ever way helps you sleep at night. End of the day we lost on a 61 yard field goal off the foot of a kicker that was cut in favor of randy bullock. It happens. 

AND  to further disprove your BS, want to know how many points the eagles had? 7. but guess what! Zach Ertz fumbled on his own 29 and eli on the next play hit OBJ for a TD. The other Eli pick resulted in 0 points for Philly. So points off turnovers was even at 7. 

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12 minutes ago, Go_Giants said:

One you make it sound like Geno did not turn the ball over. When the defense or special teams gives the ball to Eli in the Redzone he is getting at least 3 points out of it.

Second it been proven working under a bad line can effect a QB, such as what David Carr had to undergo with the Texans. I think Eli with just an average o-line would be more accurate. This does not change my thoughts that we need to keep an eye on the future. Eli not Geno, gives us the best chance to win.

thank you, When Eli won two super bowls both teams had two things in common. A very good offensive line. This allowed Eli to play to his strengths. You are right, he isnt mobile. But that doesnt mean he isnt a good qb, doesnt have a high football IQ, and cant manage a game. Reese neglecting the offensive line really hurt Eli's play. He was never protected. Offensive line matters greatly, i think you are really underestimating how much. 

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18 minutes ago, Go_Giants said:

One you make it sound like Geno did not turn the ball over. When the defense or special teams gives the ball to Eli in the Redzone he is getting at least 3 points out of it.

Second it been proven working under a bad line can effect a QB, such as what David Carr had to undergo with the Texans. I think Eli with just an average o-line would be more accurate. This does not change my thoughts that we need to keep an eye on the future. Eli not Geno, gives us the best chance to win.

First, I did not say Geno didn't turn the ball over. The way you "think I sound like" isn't what I said and my argument. I said Eli cost us the Philly game by turning the ball. If Geno did the same, mattbags crucifies him. Please state my argument, not what you "think I sound like".

Second, good QBs can have played bad lines and played absolutely fine after. David Carr failed with the Texans because he lacked pocket presence. When Eli has time given to him by the line, he doesn't do much with it. So there's evidence a better line doesn't help Eli's accuracy as much as it should. Eli is a replacement level QB now imho, with or without a good line.

Eli absolutely does not give us the best chance to win. He is not as accurate as Geno, not as mobile as Geno, and so on. The only reason Eli is even playing is because the owner went psycho and fired everyone. The actual offensive coaching staff determined that Geno gives the team the best chance to win, and just from the tape, you can see Geno is more accurate than Eli.

One of the outside passes Geno made to Engram in the 1st half was an accurate pass that Eli hasn't made in 11 games with Engram. No top coach, including McDaniels, will sign here without a viable QB replacement for Eli. And if the Giants draft a QB top 3, then Mara and everyone else agrees with me that Eli is not good enough to start. Franchises only draft high round QBs if they're looking for an immediate replacement for a bottom level QB.

 

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I dont know how you can argue accuracy lmao that might be the funniest thing ive ever heard. And to your dumb point about Eli costing us your game i disproved that. Go check the  thread pal:D

and no i wouldnt crucify geno. I have nothing against Geno. By saying the defense doesnt have a responsibility to get stops especially in the 4th quarter when you are given 3 leads is completely ignorant. There is two sides to the ball

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5 minutes ago, celestial said:

First, I did not say Geno didn't turn the ball over. The way you "think I sound like" isn't what I said and my argument. I said Eli cost us the Philly game by turning the ball. If Geno did the same, mattbags crucifies him. Please state my argument, not what you "think I sound like".

Second, good QBs can have played bad lines and played absolutely fine after. David Carr failed with the Texans because he lacked pocket presence. When Eli has time given to him by the line, he doesn't do much with it. So there's evidence a better line doesn't help Eli's accuracy as much as it should. Eli is a replacement level QB now imho, with or without a good line.

Eli absolutely does not give us the best chance to win. He is not as accurate as Geno, not as mobile as Geno, and so on. The only reason Eli is even playing is because the owner went psycho and fired everyone. The actual offensive coaching staff determined that Geno gives the team the best chance to win, and just from the tape, you can see Geno is more accurate than Eli.

One of the outside passes Geno made to Engram in the 1st half was an accurate pass that Eli hasn't made in 11 games with Engram. No top coach, including McDaniels, will sign here without a viable QB replacement for Eli. And if the Giants draft a QB top 3, then Mara and everyone else agrees with me that Eli is not good enough to start. Franchises only draft high round QBs if they're looking for an immediate replacement for a bottom level QB.

well this isnt true. We are preparing for the future. What is so wrong with that?  you are just saying that as a bailout to make yourself feel better.  its cute, but wrong. Aaron Rodgers was a first round pick. He road pine and learned behind farve for how many years? Just one example

 

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mattbags: I should clarify. Teams only pick high 1st round pick QBs when they intend on replacing their QB immediately. Aaron Rodgers was not a high 1st round QB pick, and his pick was an exception. Teams generally do not pick a 1st round QB, even, unless they determine their starting QB is not good enough to start. This has been the case for like the past 10 years.

This year, all the high 1st round picks teams' starter QBs. 

The year before, all the high 1st round picks replaced teams' starter QBs.

And so on.

If we draft a high 1st round QB, that means we think Eli isn't good enough to continue starting, just like most teams. 

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6 minutes ago, celestial said:

mattbags: I should clarify. Teams only pick high 1st round pick QBs when they intend on replacing their QB immediately. Aaron Rodgers was not a high 1st round QB pick, and his pick was an exception. Teams generally do not pick a 1st round QB, even, unless they determine their starting QB is not good enough to start. This has been the case for like the past 10 years.

This year, all the high 1st round picks teams' starter QBs. 

The year before, all the high 1st round picks replaced teams' starter QBs.

And so on.

If we draft a high 1st round QB, that means we think Eli isn't good enough to continue starting, just like most teams. 

I agree and disagree. The exception thing is BS, it just fits your argument. And secondly I'm not a believer in throwing a rookie into the fire. More often than not it fails. Id rather him learn behind Eli and get comfortable. Plus I'm going to go on the assumption we get darnold unless the browns pass on rosen. Darnold is coming off a down year for his expectations. It wasnt a bad year, people expected more though. He shouldnt start right away. Lets groom him and prep ourselves for the next 15 years of giants football.He has all the tools to be an absolute stud, lets not throw that away 

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26 minutes ago, celestial said:

First, I did not say Geno didn't turn the ball over. The way you "think I sound like" isn't what I said and my argument. I said Eli cost us the Philly game by turning the ball. If Geno did the same, mattbags crucifies him. Please state my argument, not what you "think I sound like".

Second, good QBs can have played bad lines and played absolutely fine after. David Carr failed with the Texans because he lacked pocket presence. When Eli has time given to him by the line, he doesn't do much with it. So there's evidence a better line doesn't help Eli's accuracy as much as it should. Eli is a replacement level QB now imho, with or without a good line.

Eli absolutely does not give us the best chance to win. He is not as accurate as Geno, not as mobile as Geno, and so on. The only reason Eli is even playing is because the owner went psycho and fired everyone. The actual offensive coaching staff determined that Geno gives the team the best chance to win, and just from the tape, you can see Geno is more accurate than Eli.

One of the outside passes Geno made to Engram in the 1st half was an accurate pass that Eli hasn't made in 11 games with Engram. No top coach, including McDaniels, will sign here without a viable QB replacement for Eli. And if the Giants draft a QB top 3, then Mara and everyone else agrees with me that Eli is not good enough to start. Franchises only draft high round QBs if they're looking for an immediate replacement for a bottom level QB.

 

Right now you are comparing Eli to Geno. If you are saying Eli turnover cost the Giants the game, but are willing to admit Geno turns the ball over too. Then the Giants are not better off.

And second you could not be more wrong. Good mobile QB can operate behind a bad offensive line. Russel Wilson, Cam Newton to a degree even Tyrod Taylor. Geno might have mobility but he is not a good QB.  As for long down the field passes, I believe it was the Detriot game where Eli threw a great deep ball to Engram he just did not hold on to it.  As for Carr, right the Texans are going to use the first overall pick on a QB that has no pocket presence. 

And no the actual offensive coaching staff did not determine that because Sullivan had very good things to say about Eli. Mcadoo saw the writing on the wall he was going to be fired at the end of the season. Mara gave him a slight opening and in attempt to save his job he wanted to blame the offense woes on Eli. Mara gave him the chance and it failed and Mcadoo was fired. I don't blame Mcadoo he was trynig to save his job and was worth a shot. 

If we get an offensive line we can easily win with Eli. And we can do what the Packers did with Farve and Rodgers. 

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18 hours ago, celestial said:

The argument was whether Eli is to blame for his turnovers and losing the game in Philly. He 100% is. The following two Eli 2 picks in the Philly game are inexcusable

Nope sorry bud you are wrong. Regardless of the two picks, points off turnovers were 7-7. The first pick you keep crying about is irrelevant because the eagles did not score off of it. Keep disregarding that our QB gave us 3 4th quarter leads and the defense couldnt get a single stop. Its ok I know you have no answer for that. Go back game by game over oh idk lets say 3 seasons. Find me a game where an offense takes a lead 3 times in 1 quarter and loses the game. Look I'm not bias and I'll admit when you have a point and Ive agreed with some things you have said.  I looked at points off turnovers in this game, which are a huge tell tale because who wins that battle usually wins the game, and I see POT was 7-7 i cant justify blaming Eli. Especially when we missed out on points going for a 4th and goal and our defense couldnt stop a nose bleed in the 4th with 3 different leads. However! if I looked at POT and I saw 14-0 Eagles, or 10-0 eagles or whatever the case may be in the eagles favor. Id say, you know what you have a point, maybe Eli did play a larger role in this loss. But when i see 7-7, thats not convincing me. Eli could throw 5 picks but if they arent scoring points off those turnovers its null. Scoreboard is all that matters at the end of the day. And as I said. Argue this all day, we still lost on an absolutely insane FG. It happens, its football

Eli is to blame for this pick. From the time the ball is snapped, Eli has 4+ seconds to throw the ball from a CLEAN POCKET. Eli is supposed to throw the ball to the outside and ahead of Brandon Marshall.  Eli, with a clean pocket and all the time in the world, not only underthrows this ball but throws it to the inside to the CB's side, eliminating any chance Marshall has to catch the ball and causing an easy pick.

https://streamable.com/jhnsd

your link wont work for me but im going to assume this is the batted ball pick. Defensive line hit the ball at the line, you have no idea where the ball was going to end up. 

 

Quote

^
The 2nd Eli pick against Philly. Eli takes a 3 step drop, stares down his outside receiver running a slant, misses the linebacker over the middle and gets picked. Eli has both time and space to make this throw. Eli should have seen that the throw was too risky, stepped up in the pocket and made a different decision. Again, this pick is Eli's fault.

The throw was his fault and a terrible one yes. But I remember watching this. There was a flag on the play and Eli was under the impression it was offsides so he just threw one up for grabs like every QB does everytime there is an a defensive offsides. He was wrong unfortunately so yes the pick was his result. Has nothing to do with ability. He thought he had a free play However this is irrelevant because the eagles did NOT score off this

In CONCLUSION THE ABOVE GIFS SHOW that Eli's turnovers cost us the game against Philly. Both these picks are 100% Eli's fault as a QB. If Geno made the same throws, these picks would be 100% Geno's fault too.

Again you are bias and blinded. You ignore all other phases of the game. You have not bought up defense, coaching or any other aspect of a football game once in any argument. You also ignored when i said Mcadoo went for it on 4th and goal when he knows we have no running game at all and we got stuffed and the ball was turned over. Take the 3 points there and it is a completely different football game. 

Moving on, I disagree with you that only mob

 QBs can function behind a good line, and I disagree with you that Geno is not a good QB, but the second assertion has nothing to do with what I said. An immobile QB can do well behind a strong pass rush, or with a weak offensive line, by reading the game faster and getting the ball out. Philip Rivers did this against us this year when we played the Chargers. Rivers was under pressure all game and had little help from his offensive line.

You are not only the only person on this forum but in the whole world of sports that doesnt think geno sucks. Seriously who are you related to? Maybe you can snag me an autograph or something. If Geno was considered a good QB the jets who have been searching for a QB since Joe Namath wouldnt of given up on him. Now his jets stint isnt entirely his fault between the coaching and roster around him but nonetheless if they thought there was something there he wouldnt of been given up on.

Also genius, Eli had the quickest release in football over a 2 month span this season. Eli goes through his progressions very quick that has never been an issue. Also do you know what getting the ball out quicker means for the offensive? Less complex route combinations and really no routes that extend beyond 7-12 yards. You essentially cut the play book in half. This makes the offense very predictable. Teams can sit in cover 2 or cover 3 and just keep the play in front of them. Basically whats been being done to us for the past 2-3 seasons. Our lack of protection hurts our creativity and play calling which overall makes our offense less complex and very ineffective. 

Eli needs the Wall of Berlin in front of him and as the above picks show you, Eli still makes crucial mistakes when give space and time by offensive lines.

wont disagree with this. Eli does make dumb decisions from time to time. Id never argue against that

The Texans did use their #1 pick on David Carr, who had subpar pocket presence, just like Jacksonville picked Blaine Gabbert with their #10 pick, who also had subpar pocket presence coming out. David Carr's lack of pocket presence caused so many of his sacks, just like Gabbert. A good QB just throws the ball away, checks down, runs, etc. All David Carr ever did was get sacked. But we agree to disagree here.

Is there anything ever that isnt the QBs fault? I mean you literally talk about nothing else besides how it all comes back to the QB. Carr was the most sacked QB in the league more than once. If you dont think the o-line deserves ANY blame for that, you are on crack. 

McAdoo himself said the coaches inside the building agree with benching Eli and that Geno gives them the best chance himself. Mara agreed with it too or else Eli doesn't get benched. Simple as that.

 

Eli plays poorly with good and bad offensive lines. We can't win against good teams with Eli under center regardless. Here is more proof, this time against the LA Rams:

The last time we had a good offensive line in the days of snee, diehl, mckenzie. o'hara etc we won 2s superbowls. So also very false. In all of your arguments and I'll say it again, you disregard the team. Football is a TEAM game. You dont think the lack of an offensive line, and that fact that we havent had a legit running game since bradshaw left hurts?? Look at the factors in common in both super bowl years. Great pass rush, solid QB play, solid offensive line, and a running game. All the other variables changed slightly from 2007 to 2011 but the core, the thing that makes the NY Giants the NY Giants stayed in tack. We have always been known as a tough team in the trenches. Hard nosed giant football. We had those things when we won super bowls. In recent years it has been lacking. Between injuries, JPP blowing his hand off, 0 running game what so ever, the offensive line changing weekly. These are all things that hurt the overall TEAM. Eli isnt rodgers or brady or ben. He needs these things to succeed, and when he had them he did. The guys i mentioned above are a dime a dozen. We need to get back to what we are, ever hear the saying "build from the inside out." We need a strong core, right now we dont have that. Stop putting it all on the QB, thats not how football works. Football is the most team oriented sport on the planet. Your boy Mcadoo preached it in every post game press conference and it was something I actually always agreed with. "3 phases off football need to play together" Special teams, offense, defense. If you think that all falls on Eli's shoulders you are an absolute nut job. Our special teams have also been a huge problem area for us. When Matt Dodge couldnt punt the ball out of bounds against D-jax a few years ago was that Eli's fault? Like come on look at the game as a whole, you dont like Eli and that is clear. Thats fine I wont argue your opinion but you truly disregard every other aspect of football


In this gif, Eli has 4-5 seconds from time to snap and when he throws the ball. Eli stares his receiver the whole way through and gets easily picked off by Trumaine. ELI HAD ALL THE TIME AND SPACE IN THE WORLD TO MAKE THIS THROW. WE CAN'T WIN ANYTHING WITH ELI MANNING!

 

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You talk all that talk and you provide a few clips that can be easily refuted?

The first clip, QBs are always taught that if you see a free play then go for it deep. Eli thought that he had a free play and he didn’t. He was wrong. That’s not an indictment against his abilities

Second clip, it’s a three step drop. Point is that at the top of that drop the bell is out of his hands. Question is why? I dunno maybe because the line is so bad that Eli the play all dictates he throws the ball out. And no surprise due to us doing that all day to keep ELi clean and the pocket clean (and even this clip there is already push in the pocket) Kendricks knew that and he jumped the passing lane and he deflecte it. That’s not on Eli at all. 

Third one is probably the best argument. It’s zone coverage on 3rd and 10. Trumaine Johnson understandably so is in zone and his eyes are on the QB the whole way. Eli as a veteran QB should do better. But again he throws it at the top of his drop, so it by design? 

Notice how two of those clips are off slants which is the staple of this offense. You basically just lazily analyse the play and made up your mind that ELi is at fault. So if you’re gonna do that then what is the point in arguing?

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1 hour ago, Kip Smithers said:

You talk all that talk and you provide a few clips that can be easily refuted?

The first clip, QBs are always taught that if you see a free play then go for it deep. Eli thought that he had a free play and he didn’t. He was wrong. That’s not an indictment against his abilities

Second clip, it’s a three step drop. Point is that at the top of that drop the bell is out of his hands. Question is why? I dunno maybe because the line is so bad that Eli the play all dictates he throws the ball out. And no surprise due to us doing that all day to keep ELi clean and the pocket clean (and even this clip there is already push in the pocket) Kendricks knew that and he jumped the passing lane and he deflecte it. That’s not on Eli at all. 

Third one is probably the best argument. It’s zone coverage on 3rd and 10. Trumaine Johnson understandably so is in zone and his eyes are on the QB the whole way. Eli as a veteran QB should do better. But again he throws it at the top of his drop, so it by design? 

Notice how two of those clips are off slants which is the staple of this offense. You basically just lazily analyse the play and made up your mind that ELi is at fault. So if you’re gonna do that then what is the point in arguing?

You didn’t read my post lmao. I don’t blame you I typed a lot. But I literally said what you said word for word. Eli thought he had a free play on the first one and the second  one kendricks just made a play. 

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1 hour ago, mattbags2313 said:

You didn’t read my post lmao. I don’t blame you I typed a lot. But I literally said what you said word for word. Eli thought he had a free play on the first one and the second  one kendricks just made a play. 

Lol I’m not reading that long *** post lol.

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