Jerry Reese Fired

[mattbags2313]

14 minutes ago, celestial said:

We disagree about everything. Davis Webb is garbage. If he wasn't he would have been backup or starting now. For his late round draft status, 4 yards per carry is great production from Gallman. You don't mention Engram and Tomlinson because you know I'm right. Getting a good DT and great TE is enough draft production to keep Reese. Mara runs this franchise off of fan sentiment and idiocy, not sound football decisions. There's no point in putting Eli out there against the Cowboys only for him to throw less accurate passes, move around like molasses, relative to Geno and lose the gotdamn game. Coaches have no intention of starting Webb, man.

Webb will see snaps purely because he is a third round pick and it is a lost season. That is a guarantee, he may never start. But he will see game action. There is a point to playing Eli. He has done so much for this franchise as a player and leader. Guy is as team oriented as they come and a class act. In a completely lost season the least we can do is let our two time SB MVP go out into the sunset on his own terms. Its called respect, something he has earned plenty of. Im not out here preaching "eli is better than this guy or that guy" He was inconsistent and gave me headaches from time to time since day 1. However at the end of the day he was bought me more joy with those two playoff runs than fans of other teams will see in a life time unless you are a patriots fan where super bowls come like its nothing. He has battled through inujuries, bumps, and bruises and never says a peep. Remember him against the niners in the 2011 playoffs getting his head beaten in play after play? One of my favorite games as  giants fan. He has earned the respect of the team, front office, coaches, community, and league. The absolute LEAST we can do is let him finish his tenure on his terms. Did you not hear basically the whole league come to his defense over his benching? Players and coaches across the NFL came to his defense. He has earned this. 

[celestial]

4 minutes ago, mattbags2313 said:

How thick headed are you?? Reread my post "engram ok sure" I agreed with that. I also said "I dont think anyone is labeling Dalvin or Wayne fantastic yet"  They very well could be. Too early to use the word fantastic. OBJ was "fantastic" at this point his rookie year. If Wayne was "fantastic" he would of took over the starting job by now

You're playing a dishonest semantics game now. I clarified on what I meant by "Gallman was a fantastic pick". That is, Gallman has great production for his late round draft slot. You only lightly touched on Engram, saying he is "OK", because you know Engram was a fantastic pick and he's more than just "OK". Dalvin is a fantastic pick for his draft slot. Putting your dishonest semantics aside, Reese showed in 2017 he's a good GM. We will be very, very lucky to get a GM as good.

[mattbags2313]

1 minute ago, celestial said:

You're playing a dishonest semantics game now. I clarified on what I meant by "Gallman was a fantastic pick". That is, Gallman has great production for his late round draft slot. You only lightly touched on Engram, saying he is "OK", because you know Engram was a fantastic pick and he's more than just "OK". Dalvin is a fantastic pick for his draft slot. Putting your dishonest semantics aside, Reese showed in 2017 he's a good GM. We will be very, very lucky to get a GM as good.

When I said "Engram sure ok" I wasnt saying he is ok, I was saying "ok sure I agree with that"  As for gallman I still havent seen enough. 200 yards worth of work is very hard to judge. Plus I wasnt a fan of the pick. If we didnt take webb in the third round (which i hated) We could of gotten a much better back. Look at the RBs taken between round 3 and where we took gallman.

 

Kamara-who had a first round grade and I wanted him more than anyone in the draft post 1st round

Hunt

Foreman-loved him

Perine

jamaal williams

 

Davis webb a better pick than those guys? I know you are gonna say no. Im not a fan of webb at all, but he will get snaps solely because he was a midround pick

[celestial]

11 minutes ago, mattbags2313 said:

Webb will see snaps purely because he is a third round pick and it is a lost season. That is a guarantee, he may never start. But he will see game action. There is a point to playing Eli. He has done so much for this franchise as a player and leader. Guy is as team oriented as they come and a class act. In a completely lost season the least we can do is let our two time SB MVP go out into the sunset on his own terms. Its called respect, something he has earned plenty of. Im not out here preaching "eli is better than this guy or that guy" He was inconsistent and gave me headaches from time to time since day 1. However at the end of the day he was bought me more joy with those two playoff runs than fans of other teams will see in a life time unless you are a patriots fan where super bowls come like its nothing. He has battled through inujuries, bumps, and bruises and never says a peep. Remember him against the niners in the 2011 playoffs getting his head beaten in play after play? One of my favorite games as  giants fan. He has earned the respect of the team, front office, coaches, community, and league. The absolute LEAST we can do is let him finish his tenure on his terms. Did you not hear basically the whole league come to his defense over his benching? Players and coaches across the NFL came to his defense. He has earned this. 

At this dysfunctional point, I agree we should try out Webb just for the sake of curiosity. But given Mara runs this franchise like a pimp runs a bathhouse, I doubt we get that chance now. Webb was drafted by Reese and McAdoo. Webb fits a spread short passing system which is precisely what he ran at Cal. I do not see him having success in any other system against NFL defenses this early in his career. Coaches will be in no rush to give him any chances given he is actually worse than Eli.

Going back to Eli now, better QBs than him have been benched for poor play. Eli is the richest QB in the NFL, yet a worse QB than Big Ben, Rivers, Brady, Rodgers, Palmer, even Andy Dalton. He has been shown than enough respect and shouldn't have the option to hold back the franchise because of achievements so many years ago. Eli is not just "inconsistent" either. That's a euphemism we use for him when other QBs who do the same things, like Geno occasionally does, are told they "suck".

Professional sports is cutthroat business and about winning, not playing your favorite over-the-hill QB because you think he is "classy". That's akin to playing a QB because he's white.

I don't think the franchise should sacrifice itself because of some irate, ignorant fans' "joy". I also don't think players in the locker room think that highly of Eli. They were laughing, joking and excited for Geno Smith when it was announced he would start. If the locker room was so incensed, Geno would have never gotten that acclamation.

[celestial]

12 minutes ago, mattbags2313 said:

When I said "Engram sure ok" I wasnt saying he is ok, I was saying "ok sure I agree with that"  As for gallman I still havent seen enough. 200 yards worth of work is very hard to judge. Plus I wasnt a fan of the pick. If we didnt take webb in the third round (which i hated) We could of gotten a much better back. Look at the RBs taken between round 3 and where we took gallman.

 

Kamara-who had a first round grade and I wanted him more than anyone in the draft post 1st round

Hunt

Foreman-loved him

Perine

jamaal williams

 

Davis webb a better pick than those guys? I know you are gonna say no. Im not a fan of webb at all, but he will get snaps solely because he was a midround pick

Kamara, Hunt, Perine and Foreman were all drafted higher than Gallman.

But Gallman performs about as well as Foreman, who has 4.2 yards per carry next to Gallman's 4.0 yards per carry, and slightly better than Jamaal Williams and Perine, who is below the 4.0 yards per carry watermark. 

So Gallman, despite being drafted lower, outperforms RBs drafted higher than him regularly.

[mattbags2313]

11 minutes ago, celestial said:

At this dysfunctional point, I agree we should try out Webb just for the sake of curiosity. But given Mara runs this franchise like a pimp runs a bathhouse, I doubt we get that chance now. Webb was drafted by Reese and McAdoo. Webb fits a spread short passing system which is precisely what he ran at Cal. I do not see him having success in any other system against NFL defenses this early in his career. Coaches will be in no rush to give him any chances given he is actually worse than Eli.

Going back to Eli now, better QBs than him have been benched for poor play. Eli is the richest QB in the NFL, yet a worse QB than Big Ben, Rivers, Brady, Rodgers, Palmer, even Andy Dalton. He has been shown than enough respect and shouldn't have the option to hold back the franchise because of achievements so many years ago. Eli is not just "inconsistent" either. That's a euphemism we use for him when other QBs who do the same things, like Geno occasionally does, are told they "suck".

Professional sports is cutthroat business and about winning, not playing your favorite over-the-hill QB because you think he is "classy". That's akin to playing a QB because he's white.

I don't think the franchise should sacrifice itself because of some irate, ignorant fans' "joy". I also don't think players in the locker room think that highly of Eli. They were laughing, joking and excited for Geno Smith when it was announced he would start. If the locker room was so incensed, Geno would have never gotten that acclamation.

Andy Dalton and Carson Palmer  You think we go on super bowl runs with those two? Come on who are you kidding. and you said it yourself this is a lost season. We exactly is Eli holding us back from playing 4 games on a 2-10 team lol come on. And you have no idea what was happening in that locker room,Eli is one of the most respected people in football. What did you expect it to sound like? everyone balling their eyes out? Be realistic

[mattbags2313]

6 minutes ago, celestial said:

Kamara, Hunt, Perine and Foreman were all drafted higher than Gallman.

But Gallman performs about as well as Foreman, who has 4.2 yards per carry next to Gallman's 4.0 yards per carry, and slightly better than Jamaal Williams and Perine, who is below the 4.0 yards per carry watermark. 

That is exactly my point. I said instead of taking webb we could of taken one of those backs. Was that not clear? Kamara and hunt both had a better value

[celestial]

Just now, mattbags2313 said:

That is exactly my point. I said instead of taking webb we could of taken one of those backs. Was that not clear? Kamara and hunt both had a better value

Now you're changing the subject. You said originally that Gallman was not a "fantastic" pick for his draft slot. I replied that Gallman outperformed 3rd round peers. Now you're changing the subject to questions about whether Webb was the better pick.

I'll address your new argument but you are backtracking on your arguments and changing them. This is, ironically, what you accuse me of doing.

To address the Webb vs. RB argument, it's easy to say it's better value to draft a RB in the 3rd hindsight because of how well Kamara and Hunt have played, but at the time nobody knew what we know now, and generally it's better value to select a QB above a RB.

Even now I would argue that no RBs drafted in the 3rd, including Kamara, will make any immediate difference in winning the Superbowl for their teams. Saints lost badly to the Rams and aren't going to win the Superbowl probably, even with Kamara playing well. Webb might have or could have been a franchise QB, and that's better value.

[mattbags2313]

Just now, celestial said:

Now you're changing the subject. You said originally that Gallman was not a "fantastic" pick for his draft slot. I replied that Gallman outperformed 3rd round peers. Now you're changing the subject to questions about whether Webb was the better pick.

I'll address your new argument but you are backtracking on your arguments and changing them. This is, ironically, what you accuse me of doing.

To address the Webb vs. RB argument, it's easy to say it's better value to draft a RB in the 3rd hindsight because of how well Kamara and Hunt have played, but at the time nobody knew what we know now, and generally it's better value to select a QB above a RB.

Even now I would argue that no RBs drafted in the 3rd, including Kamara, will make any immediate difference in winning the Superbowl for their teams. Saints lost badly to the Rams and aren't going to win the Superbowl probably, even with Kamara playing well. Webb might have or could have been a franchise QB, and that's better value.

I'm not backtracking, you misunderstood my point. I was saying from the beginning I never like the gallman pick and he hasnt done anything that makes me call him fantastic YET. And Scouts knew kamara would be that good. He had a late first round grade by many. And I agree i dont think webb was a good prospect and we shouldnt of drafted him. I was hoping for a better RB prospect in one of the best RB classes in years. Instead we got a crappy QB.I stand by what I said. Wayne isnt fantastic yet. Sample size is way too small, especially in a lost offense. 

 

Let us have an actual team first and see what he can do. He could very well be a pro bowl caliber player. Its just too soon

[celestial]

9 minutes ago, mattbags2313 said:

I'm not backtracking, you misunderstood my point. I was saying from the beginning I never like the gallman pick and he hasnt done anything that makes me call him fantastic YET. And Scouts knew kamara would be that good. He had a late first round grade by many. And I agree i dont think webb was a good prospect and we shouldnt of drafted him. I was hoping for a better RB prospect in one of the best RB classes in years. Instead we got a crappy QB.I stand by what I said. Wayne isnt fantastic yet. Sample size is way too small, especially in a lost offense. 

 

Let us have an actual team first and see what he can do. He could very well be a pro bowl caliber player. Its just too soon

I didn't misunderstand your point. You chastised me for saying Gallman was a "fantastic" pick. I clarified by replying that "I think Gall was a fantastic pick for his 4th round draft status". Then rather than continue arguing, you switched the subject to asking whether Webb was a worse pick than a RB in the 3rd. That's not my misunderstanding, that's you playing fallacy games. Come on.

I don't see any evidence Kamara was rated a 1st round RB by teams. You're saying this in hindsight to make it seem like your argument holds more weight; it isn't true that Kamara was rated as a 1st round RB by many teams, or else he would have been drafted there. If you have proof Kamara was rated as a 1st round RB by teams, you are obligated to post it, or else just admit you made it up, bro.

Alternatively, now you're saying that Webb is a crappy QB. Now it's good to see that you can change your mind as the facts and evidence change (about everyone except Eli), but you were defending Webb earlier in this thread, as well as others'. If we know Webb is a crappy QB, as you say, then we don't need to start him. 

All that said, I agree with you that Gallman needs a bigger sample size, but I remember when we played him for long periods of time in this lost offense and he was still very good. I don't think Gallman has to be a Pro Bowl caliber player for him to be a fantastic pick for a 4th rounder. He just have to be better than most 4th round RBs, which would make him a better value pick than most 4th round players.

[mattbags2313]

1 minute ago, celestial said:

I didn't misunderstand your point. You chastised me for saying Gallman was a "fantastic" pick. I clarified by replying that "I think Gall was a fantastic pick for his 4th round draft status". Then rather than continue arguing, you switched the subject to asking whether Webb was a worse pick than a RB in the 3rd. That's not my misunderstanding, that's you playing fallacy games. Come on.

I was furthering my point not changing the subject. 

I don't see any evidence Kamara was rated a 1st round RB by teams. You're saying this in hindsight to make it seem like your argument holds more weight; it isn't true that Kamara was rated as a 1st round RB by many teams, or else he would have been drafted there. If you have proof Kamara was rated as a 1st round RB by teams, you are obligated to post it, or else just admit you made it up, bro.

i didnt say teams i said scouts. Analysts as well. I saw him as high as late first. Second round as well. That is proof a player is going to be legit

round 1 http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/dsprofile.php?pyid=127472&draftyear=2017&genpos=RB

round 2 http://www.nfl.com/draft/2017/profiles/alvin-kamara?id=2558019

scroll down you will see rounds 1-2 http://walterfootball.com/draft2017RB.php

round 2 http://www.nbcsports.com/chicago/alvin-kamara-2017-nfl-draft-tennessee-top-running-backs-rb

Alternatively, now you're saying that Webb is a crappy QB. Now it's good to see that you can change your mind as the facts and evidence change (about everyone except Eli), but you were defending Webb earlier in this thread, as well as others'. If we know Webb is a crappy QB, as you say, then we don't need to start him. 

I never said webb was good, I said I wanted to see him play and give him a chance but no he wasnt my favorite prospect and i didnt want him by any stretch of the imagination

 

1 minute ago, celestial said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

[celestial]

10 minutes ago, mattbags2313 said:

 

 

You can find any number of 1st to 4th round ratings by random people on the internet.  None of the above are NFL scouts. Walter from Walter Football is a polemic, not a scout. NFL scouts didn't rate Kamara as a 1st round talent or else he would have been taken in the 1st round.

[mattbags2313]

1 minute ago, celestial said:

You can find any number of 1st to 4th round ratings by random people on the internet.  None of the above are NFL scouts.

Lol convenient reponse. 

[Kip Smithers]

This is how we don’t know nearly as much as we think. Say you hold Jerry responsible for every pick he has made as a GM, 2007 and 2008 were very good classes. Why is it for example he drafted in 2011 and 2012 were so poor. Why? Did he forget how to draft in those years?

[Go_Giants]

1 hour ago, mattbags2313 said:

 The absolute LEAST we can do is let him finish his tenure on his terms. Did you not hear basically the whole league come to his defense over his benching? Players and coaches across the NFL came to his defense. He has earned this. 

If there was still a streak I could almost agree with this. There is not any longer,  it is better for the organization  to see if Webb can be the future. If he is then we can trade our 1st round pick down for extra picks and add some young talent to our team. If he does not show any signs he can be the future, then we need to use our top 5 pick to draft the future QB. 

I like Eli just as much as the next guy, but as I have said in earlier threads the worst situation we can be in is QB purgatory, and to do that in  thus up coming talented QB draft is almost unforgivable. As someone stated earlier  Webb comes from a spread offense the conversion from that to a pro style tend to takes time. When Webb is ready maybe the last two games of the seasons we have to see what he can do.