Sugashane Posted November 28, 2023 Share Posted November 28, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, Madmike90 said: I get the point your trying to make but I think your looking at this too black and white for or against Fields...it's neither...it's impressive that Fields & Moore has this sort of connection so quickly and yes...does show that if you can put some real talent around Fields they can make plays together...we saw it with Fields & Wilson/Olave and now Fields & Moore...add in a MHJ/Nabers/Odunze and maybe you can recapture some of that. Mike you're taking about a college QB from a powerhouse that has a guy drafted 10th overall and the other picked 11th overall. Of course he made plays, they would have been successful even with a really average QB. I'm not giving McCord credit for MHJ's success to prep him up either. Dude is a stud even with a mid QB. And I dont find it impresive at all. Moore has been with washed up Newton, Kyle Allen, Bridgewater, Darnold, then Mayfield/Walker/Darnold. Outside of one ridiculous outlier game that accounted for almost 1/4 of his yards and half his TDs he has produced about the same even with trash QB play in CAR. Meanwhile Mooney is having a career worst year, Kmet has been a solid dump down/quick read option, and then two running backs that aren't much in the way of receiving threats have been what he has relied on. He struggles to spread the ball around and has to rely on either Moore or a dump off. If he is able to get outside the pocket and the defense has to cover long enough then he will get the ball deeper. But he relies constantly on Moore or a drop off optionH because struggles to attack anywhere with anticipation. He is simply a limited passer. I'm looking at him with context and not just looking at stats like his QBR, and using that as an excuse to claim #growth. Not looking at why he has these stats is looking more at black and white than anything, and it is how people put blinders on to his constant failings as a QB. Fields seems like a great guy, but he simply isn't a top 10 QB and never will consistently be one. At best you might get a lucky streak but he will inevitably come back to the mean. So why waste resources hoping he will be more than he is? Edited November 28, 2023 by Sugashane spelling 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anonymousGM Posted November 28, 2023 Share Posted November 28, 2023 I wish demoting coaches was more mainstream. Demote Flus to DC and hire a new HC and offensive play-caller. Why would a top level OC want to become a head coach if he got paid the same or even more? And if your the Bears why not pay your two or three most important coaches the same to retain talent. Is it really that political that the next top OC needs to get a HC job just to hire all his people when the same contract is offered to him to keep calling offensive plays. - - End of random thought - - - - Continue more random thoughts - - On the MNF broadcast you could see the cam focus on Poles after a short Roschon Johnson run where I saw him gesture "keep feeding him the ball" and then he proceeded to be the feature back the next few drives. This begs the question how much is our GM impacting playing time/gameplan rather than Getsy or whomever. As long as Poles has full control of football operations, I don't care what happens. Flus can stay as head coach and Getsy can stay as OC and we can have more continuity. I'm okay with that as long as Poles has the first right of refusal on our current staff and players moving forward. He's earned that IMO - - Poles stays as GM - - new contract extension?? If Fields is an average QB thats okay as long as Poles gets Getsy's opinion, looks at the available options in FA and the draft, and then gets him back on an average QB contract. You can make the playoffs with an average QB with a great defense and proper play-calling. I don't think any team would sign Fields to a monster contract on the open market anyways. The Bears have treated Fields well and attempted to put good players around him so I don't see why he wouldn't want to resign for a shorter-term "prove it contract" next season unless he thinks Getsy is the problem - - Resign Fields - - 2yr deal maybe a team option or playoff incentives 🤔 We all wanted to see progress this season and the defense has made significant progress over the past few games. The big changes are over, now lets make some smaller adjustments and do some fine-tuning. You need to keep Jaylon Johnson even if its on the franchise tag so thats the #1 priority going into the offseason with Eddie Jackson's contract coming off the books. Defense is already looking good for next season as long as Brisker can stay healthy. That dude might knock himself out one day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madmike90 Posted November 28, 2023 Share Posted November 28, 2023 10 minutes ago, Sugashane said: Mike you're taking about a college QB from a powerhouse that has a guy drafted 10th overall and the other picked 11th overall. Of course he made plays, they would have been successful even with a really average QB. I'm not giving McCord credit for MHJ's success to prep him up either. Dude is a stud even with a mid QB. And I dont find it impresive at all. Moore has been with washed up Newton, Kyle Allen, Bridgewater, Darnold, then Mayfield/Walker/Darnold. Outside of one ridiculous outlier game that accounted for almost 1/4 of his yards and half his TDs he has produced about the same even with trash QB play in CAR. Meanwhile Mooney is having a career worst year, Kmet has been a solid dump down/quick read option, and then two running backs that aren't much in the way of receiving threats have been what he has relied on. He struggles to spread the ball around and has to rely on either Moore or a dump off. If he is able to get outside the pocket and the defense has to cover long enough then he will get the ball deeper. But he relies constantly on Moore or a drop off optionH because struggles to attack anywhere with anticipation. He is simply a limited passer. I'm looking at him with context and not just looking at stats like his QBR, and using that as an excuse to claim #growth. Not looking at why he has these stats is looking more at black and white than anything, and it is how people put blinders on to his constant failings as a QB. Fields seems like a great guy, but he simply isn't a top 10 QB and never will consistently be one. At best you might get a lucky streak but he will inevitably come back to the mean. So why waste resources hoping he will be more than he is? I am not so much comparing Fields in college to Fields in the pros...I am saying he went from having a ton of weapons to having none to then having one...you give him more and results will improve...think of it as Purdy in reverse...next to no weapons in college and now has a ton in San Fran and to the shock of no one his play has improved (even Mahomes this year with his numbers going down because has weapons hasn't been as consistently good)... Fields struggles to spread the ball around because after Moore (and to a point Kmet) there is nothing else...Mooney had one good season and since then has been massively overrated around here (think Whitehair of WRs)...ESB, Scott & Velus have offered next to nothing...Tonyan has been a disappointment and like you said two of the three RBs aren't natural pass catcher...who are you throwing to the ball too if given the choice? Because if it is me Moore is the 1st read then Kmet is the check down... The problem is IMO some have already made their minds up on Fields...I don't think the entire evaluation will be completed until the season is over and can be stacked against the other options we could have at QB while knowing what pick we have as well as what coaching staff we could have...as I said IMO nothing is black and white here... And you could very well be right...maybe he can't be a consistent top 10 QB...maybe with the right staff and talent around him him he can be...I honestly don't know...but with the lack of truly great QBs in the NFL right now we better be 100% sure that he can't harness his natural talent and become one because if you let him walk and he goes somewhere and does become a top 10 QB that will be tough for Poles & whoever the HC is to come back from unless they totally nail the replacement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sugashane Posted November 28, 2023 Share Posted November 28, 2023 1 hour ago, Madmike90 said: I am not so much comparing Fields in college to Fields in the pros...I am saying he went from having a ton of weapons to having none to then having one...you give him more and results will improve...think of it as Purdy in reverse...next to no weapons in college and now has a ton in San Fran and to the shock of no one his play has improved (even Mahomes this year with his numbers going down because has weapons hasn't been as consistently good)... Fields struggles to spread the ball around because after Moore (and to a point Kmet) there is nothing else...Mooney had one good season and since then has been massively overrated around here (think Whitehair of WRs)...ESB, Scott & Velus have offered next to nothing...Tonyan has been a disappointment and like you said two of the three RBs aren't natural pass catcher...who are you throwing to the ball too if given the choice? Because if it is me Moore is the 1st read then Kmet is the check down... The problem is IMO some have already made their minds up on Fields...I don't think the entire evaluation will be completed until the season is over and can be stacked against the other options we could have at QB while knowing what pick we have as well as what coaching staff we could have...as I said IMO nothing is black and white here... And you could very well be right...maybe he can't be a consistent top 10 QB...maybe with the right staff and talent around him him he can be...I honestly don't know...but with the lack of truly great QBs in the NFL right now we better be 100% sure that he can't harness his natural talent and become one because if you let him walk and he goes somewhere and does become a top 10 QB that will be tough for Poles & whoever the HC is to come back from unless they totally nail the replacement. I respect your opinions as always, but we just fundamentally disagree here. I see Fields as a Tru or sub-Tru passer. Mooney is a capable 2 IMO who has iftwn been missed because Fields has tunnel vision and suspect accuracy (but ive never believed he is a #1), while Whitehair is a guy that should be on a minimum contract at this point. This isn't the Panthers roster around him, he has an average cast around him and underperforms. I do agree about college QBs working with little being able to develop and do better in the pros, that was part of my appeal for Rodgers and Mahomes both. But I don't believe he should have to have a crazy amount of talent to look like a franchise QB. But I think he does need it to look like that. And to me that isn't worth investing in. I like Fields, and damn it I really wish he was the guy. But I just loss all faith that he is the guy to lead a franchise. Anyone watching him over the last 3 years could see why a new HC might refuse to latch himself to Fields' success. I agree that if the next QB hits then no one will really care that much if Fields plays pretty well elsewhere. They care more about winning than anyone who leaves the Franchise. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madmike90 Posted November 29, 2023 Share Posted November 29, 2023 2 minutes ago, Sugashane said: I respect your opinions as always, but we just fundamentally disagree here. I see Fields as a Tru or sub-Tru passer. Mooney is a capable 2 IMO who has iftwn been missed because Fields has tunnel vision and suspect accuracy (but ive never believed he is a #1), while Whitehair is a guy that should be on a minimum contract at this point. This isn't the Panthers roster around him, he has an average cast around him and underperforms. I do agree about college QBs working with little being able to develop and do better in the pros, that was part of my appeal for Rodgers and Mahomes both. But I don't believe he should have to have a crazy amount of talent to look like a franchise QB. But I think he does need it to look like that. And to me that isn't worth investing in. I like Fields, and damn it I really wish he was the guy. But I just loss all faith that he is the guy to lead a franchise. Anyone watching him over the last 3 years could see why a new HC might refuse to latch himself to Fields' success. I agree that if the next QB hits then no one will really care that much if Fields plays pretty well elsewhere. They care more about winning than anyone who leaves the Franchise. We do disagree on a lot of this man but like you said I respect your take on it... And like I said you could very well be right on a lot of it...I just worry the evaluation isn't complete yet & unless we are 100% sure on either Maye/Caleb (still not out on JJ either in the right scheme) can be a true upgrade then we shouldn't give up on Fields and drop a rookie into the same sort of spot with a lack of weapons. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sugashane Posted November 29, 2023 Share Posted November 29, 2023 36 minutes ago, Madmike90 said: We do disagree on a lot of this man but like you said I respect your take on it... And like I said you could very well be right on a lot of it...I just worry the evaluation isn't complete yet & unless we are 100% sure on either Maye/Caleb (still not out on JJ either in the right scheme) can be a true upgrade then we shouldn't give up on Fields and drop a rookie into the same sort of spot with a lack of weapons. I'm not even looking at McCarthy until the 3rd. He seems to be a product of a superior talent rather than someone who elevates his team. Idk, he seems like a strong armed game manager to me. If not Williams or Maye then the only guy worth a 1st to me is Daniels. If whoever is the HC loves Penix or someone then I could see moving into the 2nd but that's the highest I could justify on my own. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madmike90 Posted November 29, 2023 Share Posted November 29, 2023 1 minute ago, Sugashane said: I'm not even looking at McCarthy until the 3rd. He seems to be a product of a superior talent rather than someone who elevates his team. Idk, he seems like a strong armed game manager to me. If not Williams or Maye then the only guy worth a 1st to me is Daniels. If whoever is the HC loves Penix or someone then I could see moving into the 2nd but that's the highest I could justify on my own. I have McCarthy way higher than that...like top 25...I think if anything he is underrated for the things he does in that Michigan offence...sure he is not asked to throw a lot but he makes plays when needed and has improved year on year...I think he is more than just a game manager... Arizona State Daniels scares the life out of me...falls into Hendon Hooker territory for me as good as Daniels has been (love both those LSU receivers)... Penix for me is the guy I am not touching before the 3rd round Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sugashane Posted November 29, 2023 Share Posted November 29, 2023 11 minutes ago, Madmike90 said: I have McCarthy way higher than that...like top 25...I think if anything he is underrated for the things he does in that Michigan offence...sure he is not asked to throw a lot but he makes plays when needed and has improved year on year...I think he is more than just a game manager... Arizona State Daniels scares the life out of me...falls into Hendon Hooker territory for me as good as Daniels has been (love both those LSU receivers)... Penix for me is the guy I am not touching before the 3rd round McCarthy is a polarizing guy. I've heard he is a discount Andrew Luck but that to me is just taking off the fact both were coached by Jim. Luck was bigger, stronger, faster, and had a better arm, especially in accuracy. I've heard Herbert but same issues with the Luck comp minus Harbaugh. I see more of a bigger (and stronger armed) Alex Smith I guess. I don't believe he will be a passer that will be at Kirk Cousins' level. I think Daniels is a 2nd round talent but being a QB he will get bumped up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AZBearsFan Posted November 29, 2023 Share Posted November 29, 2023 5 hours ago, Madmike90 said: Arizona State Daniels scares the life out of me...falls into Hendon Hooker territory for me as good as Daniels has been (love both those LSU receivers)... I’m jaded on Daniels because he bailed on my school after making a public showing to say that he wasn’t leaving to go to a loaded LSU squad and become a Heisman finalist (he’d probably win it if Nix didn’t get an extra game this weekend). **** that guy. He’s been really good this year but I’ve seen him crumble in pressure spots way too many times before 2023 to have any kind of comfort that he can handle the stresses of playing QB in a place like Chicago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AZBearsFan Posted November 29, 2023 Share Posted November 29, 2023 5 hours ago, Sugashane said: I'm not even looking at McCarthy until the 3rd. He seems to be a product of a superior talent rather than someone who elevates his team. Idk, he seems like a strong armed game manager to me. If not Williams or Maye then the only guy worth a 1st to me is Daniels. If whoever is the HC loves Penix or someone then I could see moving into the 2nd but that's the highest I could justify on my own. McCarthy has played 2 games against real opponents this year: Penn State: 7-8 for 60 yards (played the whole game) Ohio State: 16-20 for 148 yards, 1 TD 28 pass attempts across 2 games against non-bum opponents (vs. 82 runs). His TD pass against OSU this past weekend was his first one since 10/21. I can’t take a guy like that seriously as a QB prospect in the modern NFL. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madmike90 Posted November 29, 2023 Share Posted November 29, 2023 10 hours ago, Sugashane said: McCarthy is a polarizing guy. I've heard he is a discount Andrew Luck but that to me is just taking off the fact both were coached by Jim. Luck was bigger, stronger, faster, and had a better arm, especially in accuracy. I've heard Herbert but same issues with the Luck comp minus Harbaugh. I see more of a bigger (and stronger armed) Alex Smith I guess. I don't believe he will be a passer that will be at Kirk Cousins' level. I think Daniels is a 2nd round talent but being a QB he will get bumped up. I don't think he is in the class of Luck...doesn't have the arm of Herbert either... Weirdly the guy I think he is comparable to in a lot of ways is CJ Stroud...I love his footwork...quick & always in frame...he doesn't have the biggest arm but he can spin it...he throws with different ball speeds & anticipation...I wasn't massively high on Stroud and I feel the same about JJ...I like him but I think he needs to right scheme and support around him...where as CJ landed perfectly on his feet with Slowik we would need to pair JJ with the right HC/OC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madmike90 Posted November 29, 2023 Share Posted November 29, 2023 5 hours ago, AZBearsFan said: McCarthy has played 2 games against real opponents this year: Penn State: 7-8 for 60 yards (played the whole game) Ohio State: 16-20 for 148 yards, 1 TD 28 pass attempts across 2 games against non-bum opponents (vs. 82 runs). His TD pass against OSU this past weekend was his first one since 10/21. I can’t take a guy like that seriously as a QB prospect in the modern NFL. Again I guess there are two ways to look at those numbers...as above or... Against the two real opponents this year he went a combined... 23-28 - 82.14% completion percentage 208 Yards - 7.42 yards per attempt...9.04 yards per completion 1 TD...no turnovers McCarthy doesn't call the plays & everyone knows Michigan are run heavy...all JJ can do is make the most of his opportunities...that is what he does IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HuskieBear Posted November 29, 2023 Share Posted November 29, 2023 20 hours ago, Madmike90 said: add in a MHJ/Nabers/Odunze and maybe you can recapture some of that. if we don't go MHJ with our first pick, i like Coleman or Odunze with our 2nd over Nabers, who i have 4th Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madmike90 Posted November 29, 2023 Share Posted November 29, 2023 45 minutes ago, HuskieBear said: if we don't go MHJ with our first pick, i like Coleman or Odunze with our 2nd over Nabers, who i have 4th All 3 are great prospects...Nabers just has more ability to create on his own IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BEAR FACE DOWN ARROW Posted November 29, 2023 Share Posted November 29, 2023 Not sure if there's a more random thought than "I could conceivably end up working for Roquan Smith and Deandre Hopkins" but I guess it's possible now that the most confusing group of investors have Voltron'd together to buy a sailing team: https://www.instagram.com/p/C0PGhRls6-e/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link&igshid=NTYzOWQzNmJjMA== Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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