2024 Draft Debate and Discussion

[beardown3231]

1 minute ago, StLunatic88 said:

Source: "Trust Me Bro"

Justin Fields is one of the 5 worst QB's in football. It might just be "trust me bro" based on the fact that odds are overwhelming someone as talented as Williams won't be god awful

[StLunatic88]

3 minutes ago, beardown3231 said:

Justin Fields is one of the 5 worst QB's in football. It might just be "trust me bro" based on the fact that odds are overwhelming someone as talented as Williams won't be god awful

5 Worst? Ha wow, you really are being completely unbiased

You keep digging your heels in man, you seem completely rational about this right now

[beardown3231]

10 minutes ago, StLunatic88 said:

5 Worst? Ha wow, you really are being completely unbiased

You keep digging your heels in man, you seem completely rational about this right now

Unbiased? Do you think I like that the Bears QB sucks?

You know what? The following shows I'm wrong and maybe he's like 7th worst. My bad: 28th in completion %, 23rd in EPA per dropback, 26th in adjusted ypa, 25th in INT %, 30th in sack %

You keep digging yours in too

Edited January 15 by beardown3231

[StLunatic88]

Just now, beardown3231 said:

28th in completion %, 23rd in EPA per dropback, 26th in adjusted ypa, 25th in INT %, 30th in sack %

You keep digging yours in too

On the face of it, only 2 of those could be in the "Bottom 5" (except its not, more than 32 QBs play) and Im sure none of that has to do with anything other than Justin, right? Not the piss poor weapons or the Line still giving up too much pressure? Definitely not anything to do with an OC who cant call an offense outside of his scripted plays

And this is where I know you are all in your feels here, I havent dug in at all, I havent picked a side at this point, you have ZERO clue who I think we should go with or what option is best at this point. Because I havent said it, because I havent once claimed to know what the right answer is right now. 

But it seems like you have already decided that Caleb Williams is some QB savior, that there is no questions about him at all, and there is clearly no way he can fail... Trust Me Bro

[beardown3231]

8 minutes ago, StLunatic88 said:

On the face of it, only 2 of those could be in the "Bottom 5" (except its not, more than 32 QBs play) and Im sure none of that has to do with anything other than Justin, right? Not the piss poor weapons or the Line still giving up too much pressure? Definitely not anything to do with an OC who cant call an offense outside of his scripted plays

And this is where I know you are all in your feels here, I havent dug in at all, I havent picked a side at this point, you have ZERO clue who I think we should go with or what option is best at this point. Because I havent said it, because I havent once claimed to know what the right answer is right now. 

But it seems like you have already decided that Caleb Williams is some QB savior, that there is no questions about him at all, and there is clearly no way he can fail... Trust Me Bro

"Piss poor weapons" is hyperbole and you know that. Herbert averaged almost 6 ypc last year and almost 5 this year. Kmet is a good TE. Moore is a great WR.

Maybe the OC was horse****. Hell, he WAS. But is it possible while his playcalling stunk in SOME part because the QB stunk too?

Who says the line is giving up too much pressure? You? Trust me bro

No, I do have more than ZERO clue. Didn't you just post the other day that while you were thinking Fields has to go but now based on how much he's loved that he should stay?

I never said Williams is a savior. His ceiling is way higher than Fields' ceiling. His floor is higher too. I'm not going to keep passing on QB's because the team isn't stacked. GB isn't swimming with talent. HOU isn't loaded. BUF doesn't have All Pros everywhere. Are the Chiefs? The Ravens, who lost their best pass catcher weeks ago, have had no issue (despite you saying preseason that Lamar isn't a good enough passer). f***ing Gardner Minshew was better than Fields with ONE good pass catcher.

Stop handicapping these guys. If they need all of this talent, they aren't the guy

Edited January 15 by beardown3231

[G08]

52 minutes ago, beardown3231 said:

How did getting a ton of picks and cap space help Fields this year? He was atrocious. Now he needs it again? He has 2 good weapons and he stinks still

People think getting four 1's and three 2's is the only way to build a team. I guess if you have a handicap at QB it might be. Trust me, Williams isn't going to need two #1's and three AP's on the OL at his ceiling to have better than an 88 QB rating

 

Once again, there is no real answer here. Scouting reports in terms of strengths and weaknesses are similar. I bet there has never been QB's who had similar strengths and weaknesses coming out of college that ended up having different pro careers. It's now at the stage for Fields fanboys where they're talking about guys who played under the same college coach 4 years ago because they're upset their favorite is worse than prime Marcus Mariota

I don't think you know what you're talking about and it's why you can't answer direct questions from @Madmike90and why you resort to childish retorts.

Seriously, and I don't mean this disrespectfully, how old are you?

[beardown3231]

21 minutes ago, G08 said:

I don't think you know what you're talking about and it's why you can't answer direct questions from @Madmike90and why you resort to childish retorts.

Seriously, and I don't mean this disrespectfully, how old are you?

Childish retorts is an argumentative way of saying I called someone out on their hypocrisy and now someone doesn't like it. I keep hearing that Fields' stats are irrelevant because everything around him is piss poor but then we're going to talk about stats to compare Williams and Mayfield. f*** outta here

I don't know what I'm talking about? You guys want to keep Fields because he's liked by teammates and he runs fast and now you're reverting to things like "Williams had one bad game once and statistically Kyler Murray was better in college." Who gives a ****? Kyler Murray was better than Fields in college. He was better than Mahomes in college. Hell he was probably better than Peyton Manning in college

This isn't about Williams as much as it is Fields. Take Maye then. Select Daniels. IDGAF. I think all have higher floors and ceilings than Fields. I don't dislike him. I just think we've seen his best. This is who he is. A poor passer who needs great coaches and great players to just contend for a WC spot. A place like Atlanta or Vegas may like that. Personally I'm sick of being satisfied with mediocre. Take a swing and keep swinging. If they keep Fields I'll cheer my *** off for him. I'm just not optimistic in the least

I'm 42

Edited January 15 by beardown3231

[StLunatic88]

27 minutes ago, beardown3231 said:

"Piss poor weapons" is hyperbole and you know that. Herbert averaged almost 6 ypc last year and almost 5 this year. Kmet is a good TE. Moore is a great WR.

Not hyperbole at all. Moore is Great, and Kmet is a good receiver, but outside of that, it would be hard for any of our other weapons to be starting on a playoff team, while most of them would realistically be fighting for a roster spot.

That includes Herbert, who averaged 5.7 and 4.6 YPC the last two years, thats some pretty generous rounding by you there. Not to mention, hes doing that averaging only 130 carries the past 2 seasons, which put him outside the Top 40, a far cry from a bell cow back.

Maybe a healthy Mooney changes things, but he was not healthy and it showed on the field.

33 minutes ago, beardown3231 said:

Maybe the OC was horse****. Hell, he WAS. But is it possible while his playcalling stunk in SOME part because the QB stunk too?

No, thats not the reason, we know that because we have seen it work, for a solid stretch last year and then often the set of scripted plays to start games this year. But go ahead and keep trying to slant these issues into somehow Fields fault. You dont look desperate at all.

35 minutes ago, beardown3231 said:

Who says the line is giving up too much pressure? You? Trust me bro

Again, fighting facts to try and make the Justin scenario worse in your mind.

36 minutes ago, beardown3231 said:

No, I do have more than ZERO clue. Didn't you just post the other day that while you were thinking Fields has to go but now based on how much he's loved that he should stay?

Thank you for proving my point. First off, yes, I did say I changed my opinion and thats because I have the ability to not only critically think, but actually listen to those who know way more about NFL football than me (i.e. guys who actually played the game) But the bigger thing is what I said about the whole situation, and have been for a while; "There clearly isnt an obvious answer to this, so the only wrong answer is pretending that there is."

Please keep taking in half of the info to make your strawman points, its the Getsy-style playbook. So is how you are acting about Williams, someone comes in and asks a question, a real question (of many) that the league is asking about Caleb Williams, and you act like they just said he was Jamarcus Russell. All while not actually having an answer to said question. 

Caleb Williams is FAR from a perfect prospect, and saying things like his ceiling is "way higher" than Fields just shows how biased you are being, because that is just not true. Justin Fields' ceiling is still astronomical, and pretending it isnt, is just ignoring reality because you want to move on from him. Also you are just projecting a "floor" for Williams, saying it is better, but did anyone have this as Trevor Lawrence's floor in year 3? Even the Trey Lance haters (myself included) didnt have him being washed from his team by Mr. Irrelevant and not being able to even see the field. Caleb Williams floor is a complete bust, just like every other prospect. 

Look at where this all started, all @Madmike90 said was could he be another Baker/Kyler, you know...a starting level NFL QB??? Wait, no he didnt even say that, he just said, does the Lincoln Riley Offense inflate what he actually is? Which YES it for sure does, and denying that is just delusional. That doesnt mean he isnt a good Prospect, or even a great one, but its a real thing you have to parse out when deciding if he is worth more than a treasure trove of a return. 

No one in these discussions are saying there is a definitive answer to this situation other than Caleb fan boys...

[G08]

1 hour ago, beardown3231 said:

This isn't about Williams as much as it is Fields.

This I can understand, and I think it's valid to an extent.

To me it's a holistic view of Justin Fields and how one evaluates a quarterback. I think QBs fail to thrive due to myriad reasons, the biggest being poor supporting cast/talent and poor coaching. The other aspect centers around poor work ethic/lack of leadership abilities (Cade McNown, Ryan Leaf etc).

 

I don't think Caleb Williams would have thrived in the NFL if he was a Chicago Bear in 2022. He would have had the worst receiving corps in football and a subpar offensive line. I'd go so far as to argue that his style of play, extending and running around while looking downfield likely would have gotten him killed, but I digress.

In 2023 I do find myself wondering if he would have done better. I don't think Getsy's gameplans after the first 15 were anything to write home about, and his inability to counter after the defense adjusted left me wondering about just how good of a coach he was. To me, his strength was studying a defense and designing plays to beat them, which is great when you have a week+ to prepare. When the bullets were flying, though, he had nothing, and that showed on tape. He also did a piss-poor job coaching/teaching the details of the offense to the skill positions. When you are a rhythm and timing based offense, if your QB hits his back foot and the WR is not where he is supposed to be, AND your head coach is hammering home "no INTs, no fumbles", you will play slow and you will look to make plays on your own.

 

Personally, I don't believe Justin Fields is a fit for the type of offense that we were running last season. He is a rare-breed when you factor in his arm strength/speed/power/intelligence. If he is to thrive in the NFL, it will be with an offensive coordinator who knows how to harness that ability. Greg Roman did it one way in Baltimore, Todd Monoken took it a step further this season. If there is a model to be followed, it's that.

 

I don't envy the decision Poles has to make, since this is Chicago I am worried that, no matter what he does, it's going to be wrong. But who knows, maybe the football Gods will smile upon us just this one time and have this off-season be the launching pad to 10-20+ years of elite football being played by the Chicago Bears.

[AZBearsFan]

Soooooo is Williams declaring or not? If he doesn’t at least we’ll get to have new discussions for a while…

(Can’t imagine he doesn’t declare, even if he tries to dictate his eventual destination)

[dll2000]

It's going to be wild arguing keep Fields or college QB until or if a trade happens (number 1 pick or Fields) and we know for sure.

We are fairly divided on what is right thing to do.

Can we at least agree it should be one or the other?  Keeping a first round QB and Fields on same roster seems like a really bad idea to me. 

I am in trade Fields and draft QB camp.  On that note I kind of wish Fields had played better in last game for better trade value, but if he had I think more people would be adamant that he not be traded.   I had made up my mind after Cleveland game and based on whole season.  

 People will be keeping receipts on this one I am sure.  So that will be fun when Fields wins like 3 SBs for another team.  

My guess is nothing gets done until after combine (which I guess is when people do a lot of private in person talks).

So we have a ways to go.

[StLunatic88]

58 minutes ago, AZBearsFan said:

Soooooo is Williams declaring or not? If he doesn’t at least we’ll get to have new discussions for a while…

(Can’t imagine he doesn’t declare, even if he tries to dictate his eventual destination)

Yea, Its probably not going to matter (like I said before, #1 would actually become more valuable if he stays) but let me ask this;

If it is true, that Caleb Williams might be trying to pull a Eli Manning, and he doesnt want to be here in Chicago, do you still want to draft him? Would you Trade the pick? Would you just move on to Maye?

To me that would be the absolute worst case scenario, especially following a guy like Fields who the Team follows and the fans of Chicago have gotten behind. 

[StLunatic88]

1 minute ago, dll2000 said:

Can we at least agree it should be one or the other?  Keeping a first round QB and Fields on same roster seems like a really bad idea to me. 

Absolutely, this is not an Alex Smith situation, Justin Fields is not the type of QB that you have someone sit behind

3 minutes ago, dll2000 said:

I am in trade Fields and draft QB camp. 

To be clear, This is absolutely a fair stance to have. My only thing with this, you have to be ABSOLYUTELY POSITIVE that you have your guy to draft.

If you have any reservations, then to me, the haul you would likely get in return for 1.1 is too rich to pass on.

[CBears019]

Ok, he entered.  Glad that’s done with.

[topwop1]

4 minutes ago, CBears019 said:

Ok, he entered.  Glad that’s done with.

Whether or not Bears end up taking him I'm glad he declared. That #1 pick is going to be extremely valuable either way you look at it