Who do you want to see as our next HC and GM?

[big_palooka]

7 hours ago, ronjon1990 said:

Because PG ain't really that guy and never will be. 

At best, he's the typical Patriot WY lacky that allowed Josh McDaniels to dictate to him how run a defense who was "unleashed by Pierce". 

My guess is that, all platitudes aside, Pierce in no uncertain terms sat down with Graham and told him to make changes. 

Look, I'm sorry to the Pat Graham truthers out there, but this wasn't just Patrick Graham and his janky scheme all of a sudden working wonders through sheer grit and determination. Changes were made. And as much as I despise every single atom of Josh McDaniels, you're not convincing me that he was so self-enamored that he was honestly weilding that much power over the defensive side of the ball as to essentially cuck Graham from doing his job. 

What changed was that someone did. Someohe from, unironically, the defensive side of the ball took over and clear changes that weren't made before were made. Graham is either a yes-man patsy or he's just good enough to follow direction from a better mind. No real loss if he leaves. Folks can ignore his overall crap track record all they want and find every excuse in the book for why our defense was dog**** and no changes were being  made before Pierce becoming interim head coach, but the facts don't lie. This was an AP job to to bottom, end of story.

What changed? Patrick Graham wasn't allowed to keep Koonce on the sideline, leave Marcus Peters in single man coverage, line Cle Ferrell up at CB, not send pressure, etc. He wasn't allowed to keep putting his jankass product on the field without running it through someone who has overseen year to year improvement without regression and isn't from a tree of people too egotistical to check their own work. 

What's funny is the Patriot way defensively works. Belichick's scheme, when ran correctly has produced some top end defenses. Graham in Vegas and Flores in Minnesota have done more with less as DC's in that scheme. 

It's all depended on having the right people in the defense. Guys who are smart and instinctive. It's why guys like Spillane and Epps were important to the turnaround. And why a guy like Jack Jones was a plug and play success. 

Edited January 11 by big_palooka

[Styrian Raider]

5 minutes ago, big_palooka said:

Exactly this. Exactly what I've been arguing. Hiring a defensive coach in todays NFL puts you behind the 8 ball from the start. You have to nail the OC hire and hope the OC doesn't advance and you have to nail it twice.

I have nothing against AP. I think he's good at what he does, but you are swimming upstream against the rest of the league with a defensive coach. Hiring DC's is so much easier than OCs in the league now, simple as that. 

That's for me a too reactionary approach.
Like I already said once - the fancy offensive minded HC is state of the art until it isn't anymore.

I can't tell when this hype for the offense started, but if I would have to guess then I would assume it's the rise of Sean McVay and Kyle Shanahan.
Now I understand that "success is always right" and that's why guys tend to want to recreate that. That's when everybody starts to search the next McVay or Shanahan. Leading to a massive shift from offensive guys to HC positions.
But since success is hard to get and even harder to recreate, it will lead to guys being fired, which then creates the market of good OCs that weren't as good as HCs.

And also when there are suddenly more and more offense minded HCs and more and more Teams start to rocketing their ppg and games are being more shootouts than anything else. What's then?
Right. Then it comes down to who's got the better defense. And people will search for ways to shutdown offenses until there's one new shiny fancy DC that cracks the code and the cycle starts over again - just this time with defenses.

 

[NYRaider]

3 hours ago, Darbsk said:

Given the same tools he did a much better job. McDaniels does have the credentials of course, and if you were judging on purely accomplishments McDaniels wins, but do you think if we didn’t make the change we do better than 8-9? The offence had an uptick, backed by statistics and results after we made the change.

He made a slight improvement over one of the worst coaches in recent NFL history, with wins over Easton Stick, Jarrett Stidham, Tommy DeVito, and Zach Wilson. Future Bill Bellichick, just gotta hope we pray backups every week and that he doesn't fold like he did against Josh Dobbs/Nick Mullens and Gardner Minshew.

[Styrian Raider]

3 minutes ago, NYRaider said:

He made a slight improvement over one of the worst coaches in recent NFL history, with wins over Easton Stick, Jarrett Stidham, Tommy DeVito, and Zach Wilson. Future Bill Bellichick, just gotta hope we pray backups every week and that he doesn't fold like he did against Josh Dobbs/Nick Mullens and Gardner Minshew.

Didn't he won 5 games? Why are there only 4 QBs mentioned?

Is it because it was against Patrick Mahomes, arguably the best QB in the league, against whom we only won once before in 5 seasons?

[Nightmare]

Belichick out in NE, which creates another piece in the NFL HC jigsaw puzzle.

I don’t think we’ll be interested, and I hope not as well, but could Mark be swayed by the name value again?

[Jeremy408]

If pierce is hired they should go after Shane Waldron for OC

[big_palooka]

1 hour ago, Styrian Raider said:

That's for me a too reactionary approach.
Like I already said once - the fancy offensive minded HC is state of the art until it isn't anymore.

I can't tell when this hype for the offense started, but if I would have to guess then I would assume it's the rise of Sean McVay and Kyle Shanahan.
Now I understand that "success is always right" and that's why guys tend to want to recreate that. That's when everybody starts to search the next McVay or Shanahan. Leading to a massive shift from offensive guys to HC positions.
But since success is hard to get and even harder to recreate, it will lead to guys being fired, which then creates the market of good OCs that weren't as good as HCs.

And also when there are suddenly more and more offense minded HCs and more and more Teams start to rocketing their ppg and games are being more shootouts than anything else. What's then?
Right. Then it comes down to who's got the better defense. And people will search for ways to shutdown offenses until there's one new shiny fancy DC that cracks the code and the cycle starts over again - just this time with defenses.

 

It's pretty simple to look around the league and see that the most successful coaches are on the offensive side of the ball. The shift came about the same time rule changes made things easier for offenses. The league became all about offense and that isn't about to change anytime soon. 

Defense will always be important. It wins Championships. But you have to have an offense that compliments it with the right QB in place. QB is the most important position on the field and you want the best people around that development. 

I think you are undervaluing how important offense is and will continue to be in this league. It's a QB league, you either have one or you are searching for one. And you have to have the right people to develop them.

 

[big_palooka]

Here is a good example: The Chicago Bears

They hired Eberflus, a up and coming defensive coach, who inherited Justin Fields whom the organization spent the 10th overall pick on. 

He then hires Luke Getsy. Their end game is one of two outcomes:

1. Getsy elevates Fields, the offense takes off or 2. Getsy is awful, Fields doesn't progress.

In scenario one, he's quickly promoted to a HC gig. Scenario 2, which they are living is he is awful and they are forced to replace him. The defensive HC gets another crack at in this case, but will go into 2024 on the hot seat needing to hit on an OC to save his job.

2025, odd are, they are starting over with a new coach, who will be offensive minded to build around likely Caleb Williams. 

Had they just hired a offensive coach to start, they'd have a better eval on Fields and not be shuffling everything hoping Williams can save their jobs. 

Now, obviously not every offensive coach turned HC is a home run (Arthur Smith), but the hit rate is exponentially better on that side of the ball. Especially when it comes to young QB development.

 

[NJ Raider]

41 minutes ago, Jeremy408 said:

If pierce is hired they should go after Shane Waldron for OC

They need to move things along before someone else picks him up.

[Geezy]

15 hours ago, NYRaider said:

He clearly understands offense better than AP, having been a successful DC already and seeing looks from the best in the business for years. 
 

Also he was able to pluck a young goat offensive coordinator from the 49ers staff because they were close. What offensive gurus has AP been around? Bo Hardagree?

You and I have no clue of his contacts, just like you didn’t know who Demeco would hire as OC when he got the Texans job. 

[Styrian Raider]

6 minutes ago, big_palooka said:

Here is a good example: The Chicago Bears

They hired Eberflus, a up and coming defensive coach, who inherited Justin Fields whom the organization spent the 10th overall pick on. 

He then hires Luke Getsy. Their end game is one of two outcomes:

1. Getsy elevates Fields, the offense takes off or 2. Getsy is awful, Fields doesn't progress.

In scenario one, he's quickly promoted to a HC gig. Scenario 2, which they are living is he is awful and they are forced to replace him. The defensive HC gets another crack at in this case, but will go into 2024 on the hot seat needing to hit on an OC to save his job.

2025, odd are, they are starting over with a new coach, who will be offensive minded to build around likely Caleb Williams. 

Had they just hired a offensive coach to start, they'd have a better eval on Fields and not be shuffling everything hoping Williams can save their jobs. 

Now, obviously not every offensive coach turned HC is a home run (Arthur Smith), but the hit rate is exponentially better on that side of the ball. Especially when it comes to young QB development.

 

To simplify things I go further with the bold one and also take Arthur Smith and the Bears as example:

Instead of moving on from Eberflus, to find a offensive minded HC who can take care of Justin Fields. Why shouldn't they just hire a guy like Arthur Smith?
He failed recently as HC, but has shown with the Titans that he can run an efficient run-heavy offense with a mobile QB (Mariota in 2019). The danger of him getting taken from another franchise would be for sure lower, because of his Atlanta stint. And even if he can't build an elite offense right away, if Eberflus can continue to improve the defense, maybe an average offense would also make them a contender for the playoffs.
IMHO that was the "secret recipe" of Mike Tomlin for example.

[BackinBlack]

6 hours ago, Darbsk said:

I think Harbaugh is the best candidate, hence why I’m in that bandwagon but that wasn’t your argument, you were trying to rubbish AP’s credentials. 

If you just said that, I’d agree 🙂

its also very possible someones list could be say;
Harbaugh
Johnson
AP

and harbaugh decides to go to chargers, and johnson goes somewhere else.

I think some people forget this is real life, and you cannot just force people to work/play for the raiders lol

[ronjon1990]

3 hours ago, big_palooka said:

Rumor is DaBoer has been high on their succession plan for awhile. Personally, I think that is a mistake. He's not built for the South.

Man....even then, the Puget Sound and UW in the Big10 >>> Tuscaloosa sharing a conference with Texas, Georgia, etc

 As long as Kirby Smart and Brian Kelly are in the conference, really no way DeBoer or anyone is going to be competing for anything better than 3rd best. And even then, Sarkisian, Kiffin, and Venables aren't pushovers. 

Big10 has....Harbaugh who may leave. Day and Franklin are good but a bit underwhelming. DeBoer could easily be in a 2 or 3 man race for best in the conference instead of fighting for 3rd, 4th, 5th place. UW has a great base of operations too. Without the Pac12 entity meddling, I could 10p% see them being a program that really thrives thanks to the Big10 connection. 

Strange to say, but in a couple of years, UW could absolutely be a far more desirable gig than Bama. 

[big_palooka]

20 minutes ago, Styrian Raider said:

To simplify things I go further with the bold one and also take Arthur Smith and the Bears as example:

Instead of moving on from Eberflus, to find a offensive minded HC who can take care of Justin Fields. Why shouldn't they just hire a guy like Arthur Smith?
He failed recently as HC, but has shown with the Titans that he can run an efficient run-heavy offense with a mobile QB (Mariota in 2019). The danger of him getting taken from another franchise would be for sure lower, because of his Atlanta stint. And even if he can't build an elite offense right away, if Eberflus can continue to improve the defense, maybe an average offense would also make them a contender for the playoffs.
IMHO that was the "secret recipe" of Mike Tomlin for example.

That's what having a Def. minded coach comes to. Hiring a retread coach/OC and hoping they hit so you have some longevity. Smith in this example could be a good choice or he could be the guy that couldn't get Robinson and Pitts involved in an offense. 

Far more likely Eberflus is out and they start all over again in 2025.

[big_palooka]

11 minutes ago, ronjon1990 said:

Man....even then, the Puget Sound and UW in the Big10 >>> Tuscaloosa sharing a conference with Texas, Georgia, etc

 As long as Kirby Smart and Brian Kelly are in the conference, really no way DeBoer or anyone is going to be competing for anything better than 3rd best. And even then, Sarkisian, Kiffin, and Venables aren't pushovers. 

Big10 has....Harbaugh who may leave. Day and Franklin are good but a bit underwhelming. DeBoer could easily be in a 2 or 3 man race for best in the conference instead of fighting for 3rd, 4th, 5th place. UW has a great base of operations too. Without the Pac12 entity meddling, I could 10p% see them being a program that really thrives thanks to the Big10 connection. 

Strange to say, but in a couple of years, UW could absolutely be a far more desirable gig than Bama. 

Agree. Alabama could drop off in a big way. They were the only real recruiting threat to Georgia in the south. Georgia is going to feast off Saban's absence with LSU and now Texas pulling some of those recruits too. 

I can't think of a name Alabama can get right now that fills those shoes.

No opinion yet on UW in the Big10. Such a weird situations that all is.