Who do you want to see as our next HC and GM?

[big_palooka]

4 minutes ago, Darbsk said:

Pretty much retaining Stidham and signing Brissett whilst trading up for Stroud would have been a ‘franchise saving’ move 😁 did you not see Garoppolo play?!?!?!

That move alone would have eradicated the biggest omnishambles of the McDaniels tenure. Sadly, I think McDaniels could still have messed it up with Stroud.

The other major takeaway for me that you might have missed is that it seems Zeigler wanted to build through the trenches whilst McDaniels apparently wanted skill position players and to simply out score people with his offence relying on the QB getting the ball out quickly before being obliterated 🙂

That QB room, even without Stroud would have been better off this season with potential for a QB in 2024.

[ronjon1990]

20 minutes ago, Darbsk said:

Pretty much retaining Stidham and signing Brissett whilst trading up for Stroud would have been a ‘franchise saving’ move 😁 did you not see Garoppolo play?!?!?!

That move alone would have eradicated the biggest omnishambles of the McDaniels tenure. Sadly, I think McDaniels could still have messed it up with Stroud.

The other major takeaway for me that you might have missed is that it seems Zeigler wanted to build through the trenches whilst McDaniels apparently wanted skill position players and to simply out score people with his offence relying on the QB getting the ball out quickly before being obliterated 🙂

Here's the problem:

Brissett would have been a better QB to save Josh McDaniels' job, not the Raiders franchise. 

Moving up for Stroujd is a great idea, but no move Dave pulled off tells me he could have done so without giving up too much to actually be worth it in the end. 

Minor tweaks would have led to both men retaining their jobs, and Josh McDaniels just wasn't going to succeed. The moves talked about would have saved Josh, but largely doomed the franchise to more years of being bad. And because Dave, as a man, refused to extricate himself from Josh McDaniels, there's no reason to even explore a McDaniels-less Zeigler. That was his own irreparable flaw. 

Beyond that, the end of the article brings up all the things they were in agreement on, most of which did more harm than a hypothetical signing and trade up would have outweighed regardless. 

Everyone seems to want to say McDaniels only failed because he hard-headedly went with Jimmy Garoppolo as his QB. That's just not the case. Josh’s failures as a HC and team builder go well beyond who his QB was. Jimmy was bad, so was the run game, so was the passing scheme, and so was thr playcalling. Dave was right, Josh - Tom = trash. Tom wasn't coming, and no Tom Brady replica was around. Credit there, but changing the QB wasn't the root issue. 

Zeigler may indeed have had the rare stroke of unrealized genius, much like @NYRaider (just poking, bud), but even had those rare  occasions come to be, his inability or unwillingness to address the root issues (team morale, the flawed system, the flawed coaching, the FA whiffs, mishandling the contracts of Waller, Renfrow, Carr, and the entire Jacobs situation, among others) would have just made the decent into the basement a slower process more than changing the franchise for the better. 

With Zeigler, it's not enough to say what he would have done. I mean, for Hondo maybe, given he was a cheerleader for the administration, it would be as it’s something he can use to say "Dave didn't get his fair shake!" instead of having the journalistic integrity to just admit he was wrong about Jish and Dave being good. But what about the atrocious moves that Dave Zeigler wouldn't change? Are those to be ignored because pretty much everyone can get behind the idea of moving up for Stroud? In that case, Mike Mayock did a fantastic job by kicking Anotnio Brown to the curb, so we should bring him back for his "fair shake". That move, arguably then, saved the franchise. 

[Darbsk]

27 minutes ago, ronjon1990 said:

Here's the problem:

Brissett would have been a better QB to save Josh McDaniels' job, not the Raiders franchise. 

Moving up for Stroujd is a great idea, but no move Dave pulled off tells me he could have done so without giving up too much to actually be worth it in the end. 

Minor tweaks would have led to both men retaining their jobs, and Josh McDaniels just wasn't going to succeed. The moves talked about would have saved Josh, but largely doomed the franchise to more years of being bad. And because Dave, as a man, refused to extricate himself from Josh McDaniels, there's no reason to even explore a McDaniels-less Zeigler. That was his own irreparable flaw. 

Beyond that, the end of the article brings up all the things they were in agreement on, most of which did more harm than a hypothetical signing and trade up would have outweighed regardless. 

Everyone seems to want to say McDaniels only failed because he hard-headedly went with Jimmy Garoppolo as his QB. That's just not the case. Josh’s failures as a HC and team builder go well beyond who his QB was. Jimmy was bad, so was the run game, so was the passing scheme, and so was thr playcalling. Dave was right, Josh - Tom = trash. Tom wasn't coming, and no Tom Brady replica was around. Credit there, but changing the QB wasn't the root issue. 

Zeigler may indeed have had the rare stroke of unrealized genius, much like @NYRaider (just poking, bud), but even had those rare  occasions come to be, his inability or unwillingness to address the root issues (team morale, the flawed system, the flawed coaching, the FA whiffs, mishandling the contracts of Waller, Renfrow, Carr, and the entire Jacobs situation, among others) would have just made the decent into the basement a slower process more than changing the franchise for the better. 

With Zeigler, it's not enough to say what he would have done. I mean, for Hondo maybe, given he was a cheerleader for the administration, it would be as it’s something he can use to say "Dave didn't get his fair shake!" instead of having the journalistic integrity to just admit he was wrong about Jish and Dave being good. But what about the atrocious moves that Dave Zeigler wouldn't change? Are those to be ignored because pretty much everyone can get behind the idea of moving up for Stroud? In that case, Mike Mayock did a fantastic job by kicking Anotnio Brown to the curb, so we should bring him back for his "fair shake". That move, arguably then, saved the franchise. 

I understand your argument and agree with most of it, however the franchise would have a bona fide franchise QB so when inevitably McDaniels was fired and probably Zeigler with him (I assume you still think McDaniels would f it all up given your less than flattering opinion of him 😁) we would have the most important piece, who’d still be young and relatively cheap.

How long do you think McDaniels lasts with Stroud as his QB before the inevitable? If you think he’s destined to mess it up as he’s so bad, it shouldn’t take long, of course if he succeeds then isn’t that what we all want anyway and would be saving the franchise? Either way I see it we’re on the cusp.

 

[ronjon1990]

25 minutes ago, Darbsk said:

I understand your argument and agree with most of it, however the franchise would have a bona fide franchise QB so when inevitably McDaniels was fired and probably Zeigler with him (I assume you still think McDaniels would f it all up given your less than flattering opinion of him 😁) we would have the most important piece, who’d still be young and relatively cheap.

How long do you think McDaniels lasts with Stroud as his QB before the inevitable? If you think he’s destined to mess it up as he’s so bad, it shouldn’t take long, of course if he succeeds then isn’t that what we all want anyway and would be saving the franchise? Either way I see it we’re on the cusp.

 

My guess would be that McDaniels would have outlasted Stroud and sent him packing to save his own job/ego. Because, after all, it's clearly not Josh McDaniels fault or the system being flawed, according to Josh. 

Further, it would take more than a QB for Josh to succeed. Even in New England, it was still more than Brady- who predated Josh. Josh may fancy himself a Bill acolyte, but he's nowhere near the leader or roster builder than prime Bill was. 

The chance that we cut ties with Stroud and he flourishes elsewhere while we languish in mediocrity minus some valuable draft picks is greater than not given that the system itself was sour, the rest of the roster a mess, coaching and scheming mediocre. 

[SodeeWater_Cheezburger]

6 hours ago, big_palooka said:

No. And WifiWillie needs his platform taken away. Biggest homer among Raider content creators out there. He's just a Carr loving, Gruden fan boy.

OK thanks.  I was wondering.  That would have been quite the development.

[big_palooka]

1 hour ago, SodeeWater_Cheezburger said:

OK thanks.  I was wondering.  That would have been quite the development.

That said.... never say never, because Mark Davis has an irrational amount of love for Gruden. He'd have to really look past the mess he Gruden left the roster and convince himself 3rd times a charm. Tommy Boy wouldn't need much convincing. 

[ronjon1990]

3 hours ago, big_palooka said:

That said.... never say never, because Mark Davis has an irrational amount of love for Gruden. He'd have to really look past the mess he Gruden left the roster and convince himself 3rd times a charm. Tommy Boy wouldn't need much convincing. 

Wait, so it's no and dude is a Carr/Gruden loving shill that doesn't deserve his job but it's also not no because of Mark Davis? 

Which is it? 

And you have the nuts to say I don't understand how journalism works?  😂 

[NYRaider]

Even if the plan is to retain Champ / AP we still have to interview at least two minority candidates outside of the organization to satisfy the Rooney rule. 

[Darbsk]

I’m coming around to the idea that maybe the GM is the most important decision we will make.

If we can somehow get the right guy in the building that can draft well, sign free agents astutely and create advantageous contracts that will be crucial. I believe if we create a good team, well structured then there are numerous coaches who can win with that but there’s basically no coaches that can win with the terrible rosters we’ve had of recent years.

[NYRaider]

9 minutes ago, Darbsk said:

I’m coming around to the idea that maybe the GM is the most important decision we will make.

If we can somehow get the right guy in the building that can draft well, sign free agents astutely and create advantageous contracts that will be crucial. I believe if we create a good team, well structured then there are numerous coaches who can win with that but there’s basically no coaches that can win with the terrible rosters we’ve had of recent years.

Agreed. I wonder if we plan to keep Kelly around or if we'll look to reset again. Hiring a GM / HC at the same time honestly isn't very ideal as we just saw. In a perfect world we'll hire a GM first and then allow him to go get his guy.

[Styrian Raider]

23 minutes ago, Darbsk said:

I’m coming around to the idea that maybe the GM is the most important decision we will make.

If we can somehow get the right guy in the building that can draft well, sign free agents astutely and create advantageous contracts that will be crucial. I believe if we create a good team, well structured then there are numerous coaches who can win with that but there’s basically no coaches that can win with the terrible rosters we’ve had of recent years.

Even more important it will be if the New GM has final say on roster decisions and draft picks.

 

[NYRaider]

1 hour ago, Styrian Raider said:

Even more important it will be if the New GM has final say on roster decisions and draft picks.

 

It's crazy to think about but Reggie McKenzie is really the only GM in Raiders franchise history to have full control over personnel decisions. 

[Jeremy408]

9 minutes ago, NYRaider said:

It's crazy to think about but Reggie McKenzie is really the only GM in Raiders franchise history to have full control over personnel decisions. 

That's a crazy thought.

[NYRaider]

7 minutes ago, Jeremy408 said:

That's a crazy thought.

It was Al Davis forever, Reggie, Gruden, and then McDaniels. 

[Tank4Drake]

Still the same for me. 

1. Ben Johnson

2. Harbaugh

Ben Johnson with a real Top 10 QB would be nuts