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2018/19 Europe Thread - It begins again


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1 hour ago, Mega Ron said:

Even the two actual big clubs, Man United and Liverpool, still need those fans. The TV deals and sponsorships do make up the lion's share of income for them both, but ESPN isn't going to be stood in the Stretford End or the Kop urging their team on.

I have been a Manchester United fan all my life. I grew up 20 minutes from the ground. My Dad missed 10 home games in a 25 year period, and I missed 3 in a 10 year period growing up. I WISH what you have said is true - but it isn't.

These clubs have hired the best business analytics teams in the world. They made this decision fully understanding that 'legacy fans' (their terminology) are dispensable, and that this is geared around targeting new custom. Their target market are the billions of part time supporters who don't understand how important Manchester United vs Sparta Prague is to the fabric of the international game.

Even if United and Liverpool's hardcore support boycott the games, middle class fair weather fans will jump at the chance at cheap(er) tickets and a chance to see MaNcHeStEr ReD DevIlS vs BaRceLonA ScoRcherS with their family. 

It's the working class football fan who this is going to push out of the top tier teams. They care about the history of their club. The identity of their club. They understand it's the LOWS that make the highs so good (relatively speaking for lows, obviously).

This nonsense takes that emotional, addictive drug of a rollercoaster away from the elite football teams, further sanitising this incredible sport. It's so, so, so sad.

Edited by lomaxgrUK
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10 hours ago, Dr LBC said:

Wholeheartedly agree.  Sadly, this makes a hero out of an entity (UEFA/FIFA) who really has no right be a hero - and may well see their past sins absolved as they become "the necessary evil."  

There's a line of thinking going around that this is just a power play from the 'big' 6 clubs. A way of leveraging more money out of UEFA, as a result of losing Bns due to the pandemic. This guys explains it;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPewg7GlwH8&t=455s

"when we talk about greed, where is this greed? The greed that we're talking about is having to fuel this ravenous beast which is the cost implications of running football clubs and players' salaries. We've sat here watching football bleed out its eyes whilst salaries go UP; where's this money going to go?!

....A: it's not going to happen - it's going to give UEFA a bloody nose and concentrate their minds [starts laying into UEFA..as a corrupt divisive disingenuous bunch of slobs] ....this is wrong, it needs to be stopped and it WILL. It's about changing the control of distribution of money from UEFA to these clubs. UEFA get 3.3Bn a year for the CL....and they distribute it how they decide.....[etc] it's a power play"

Worth a watch, he's an ex chairman and a football economist

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16 minutes ago, lomaxgrUK said:

I have been a Manchester United fan all my life. I grew up 20 minutes from the ground. My Dad missed 10 home games in a 25 year period, and I missed 3 in a 10 year period growing up. I WISH what you have said is true - but it isn't.

These clubs have hired the best business analytics teams in the world. They made this decision fully understanding that 'legacy fans' (their terminology) are dispensable, and that this is geared around targeting new custom. Their target market are the billions of part time supporters who don't understand how important Manchester United vs Sparta Prague is to the fabric of the international game.

Even if United and Liverpool's hardcore support boycott the games, middle class fair weather fans will jump at the chance at cheap(er) tickets and a chance to see MaNcHeStEr ReD DevIlS vs BaRceLonA ScoRcherS with their family. 

It's the working class football fan who this is going to push out of the top tier teams. They care about the history of their club. The identity of their club. They understand it's the LOWS that make the highs so good (relatively speaking for lows, obviously).

This nonsense takes that emotional, addictive drug of a rollercoaster away from the elite football teams, further sanitising this incredible sport. It's so, so, so sad.

Possibly, but there's a chance the 'legacy' (f* off) fans can have their say. Carra was saying LFC hounded out the previous American owners, and they will do this again. Says the owners (FSG) need to be very careful now. Danny Murphy predicting LFC fans will act and do their best to remove this situation etc.

I'm not advocating violence, but that club is all thousands of people have. They WILL defend it if need be.

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And Carra is also right about this - it will be BORING!

The reason United vs Real Madrid is so special is that it is pretty rare. Barcelona vs Liverpool, pretty rare and exciting.

If these teams play each other week in week out it will mean nothing. You won't get an LFC vs AC Milan final, because it's like 'oh look we play them again, 5th time in a year'. 

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3 hours ago, lomaxgrUK said:

I have been a Manchester United fan all my life. I grew up 20 minutes from the ground. My Dad missed 10 home games in a 25 year period, and I missed 3 in a 10 year period growing up. I WISH what you have said is true - but it isn't.

These clubs have hired the best business analytics teams in the world. They made this decision fully understanding that 'legacy fans' (their terminology) are dispensable, and that this is geared around targeting new custom. Their target market are the billions of part time supporters who don't understand how important Manchester United vs Sparta Prague is to the fabric of the international game.

Even if United and Liverpool's hardcore support boycott the games, middle class fair weather fans will jump at the chance at cheap(er) tickets and a chance to see MaNcHeStEr ReD DevIlS vs BaRceLonA ScoRcherS with their family. 

It's the working class football fan who this is going to push out of the top tier teams. They care about the history of their club. The identity of their club. They understand it's the LOWS that make the highs so good (relatively speaking for lows, obviously).

This nonsense takes that emotional, addictive drug of a rollercoaster away from the elite football teams, further sanitising this incredible sport. It's so, so, so sad.

What they are missing in their plans is the product that makes the clubs what they are. To think that fans tune in to watch Man United misses the point. The excitement of the game comes from not knowing who will win. From not knowing who will qualify. From those last minute goals that earn the trophy.

The home fans in the stand play a large part in getting teams over the line at times. Lose those and you lose a competitive advantage.

The working class fans are the fans. Everyone else in the ground might as well be going to the theatre. They're there to watch something, but not to play their part. 

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1 hour ago, Mega Ron said:

What they are missing in their plans is the product that makes the clubs what they are. To think that fans tune in to watch Man United misses the point. The excitement of the game comes from not knowing who will win. From not knowing who will qualify. From those last minute goals that earn the trophy.

The home fans in the stand play a large part in getting teams over the line at times. Lose those and you lose a competitive advantage.

The working class fans are the fans. Everyone else in the ground might as well be going to the theatre. They're there to watch something, but not to play their part. 

You're preaching to the choir here mate.

But fans through the turnstiles isn't where the lucrative part of football is, and these Owners know that. They are absolutely happy to sacrifice atmosphere in the ground (already awful across 90% of premier league clubs, including all 6 in the ESL) and ticket money for the huggggge boost they anticipate from streaming/subscriptions from 'new' fans.

Plus, with the old hardcore out of the way, the inevitable roadshows to Dubai, Shanghai, New York, etc will be easy.

I am sorry to say, but as @Oregon Duckseluded to earlier - it's just got American prints all over it. There isn't anything they won't squeeze money out of, regardless of any emotional implications like atmosphere in a ground.

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26 minutes ago, lomaxgrUK said:

You're preaching to the choir here mate.

But fans through the turnstiles isn't where the lucrative part of football is, and these Owners know that. They are absolutely happy to sacrifice atmosphere in the ground (already awful across 90% of premier league clubs, including all 6 in the ESL) and ticket money for the huggggge boost they anticipate from streaming/subscriptions from 'new' fans.

Plus, with the old hardcore out of the way, the inevitable roadshows to Dubai, Shanghai, New York, etc will be easy.

I am sorry to say, but as @Oregon Duckseluded to earlier - it's just got American prints all over it. There isn't anything they won't squeeze money out of, regardless of any emotional implications like atmosphere in a ground.

And thats why Palace has been drawing me. Last man standing. #RIPBOLEYN

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7 hours ago, Mega Ron said:

None of this is an inevitable march towards the markets best choice.

If anything it is part of their negotiation for more Champions League money and more or less guaranteed entry to that competition.

I'm baffled that the owners don't recognise the difference between global and domestic supporters, and the weighted importance of the latter.

A supporter is a supporter no matter where they are located. However, the local supporter, who goes to games, whose children are supporters before they are born, whose grandfather stood on the same terraces, dedicate much more of their time and money into a club.

Even the two actual big clubs, Man United and Liverpool, still need those fans. The TV deals and sponsorships do make up the lion's share of income for them both, but ESPN isn't going to be stood in the Stretford End or the Kop urging their team on.

To add on to this, what I think the breakaway clubs are missing with this move is that it's been the spirit, atmosphere, and passion of local fans that made these clubs so appealing for foreign fans in the first place. Even for people who watch the games purely on TV, what attracted them to the EPL in the first place was the crowds they could hear/see in the background, an atmosphere that the Sky executives smartly packaged up as 'authentic' and then sold to the masses. Especially looking at European football in contrast to American sports, it was always sold to the existing ("legacy") fans as something more community-driven and authentic than what we get with our own franchise-driven sports systems (college football notwithstanding).

That relationship has always been driven by contradictions, that if you really dig any further make it clear that there's a superficial element to being a foreign fan - everyone claims to love relegation so much as a concept, yet gloms on to the same 6 teams in England that  have the best chance at winning trophies and more importantly are never in danger of relegation. That I think is the part of this that the clubs understand and fans don't want to admit - everyone's a glory hunter with a sob story, basically. 

I've been reflecting on my own fandom since the news of the Super League broke and it makes me feel uncomfortable to be honest - it's not any of our individual 'fault,' so to speak, but it's also undeniable that our existence is what has allowed these clubs to turn their back on their communities. However much I love Arsenal, it can't mean as much to me as someone whose family has been in Islington for a century. But for the Kroenke's we are essentially equal, and that's the harsh and unfair reality. Sky and Richard Scudamore and corporate suits invited this dynamic in the first place, but it's gotten so out of control that there probably is no putting it back in the bottle now.

But I think even for a lot of the foreign fans, the Super League is a bridge too far precisely because it strips away the sentimentality that was cynically marketed to overseas audiences in the first place. I don't think the clubs fully grasp that so many people have been attracted to their clubs because of this veneer of 'authenticity' that is being definitively stripped down now. What they're really doing is making it impossible for people to lie to themselves any longer about what the sport has become, and even many overseas fans are likely to walk away as a result.

Now, based on the public remarks on the Super League so far, that seems to be a gamble they're willing to take because they are seemingly moreso chasing 15 year old Fortnite streamers instead of even trying to make their current overseas audiences happy - and inevitably many people complaining right now will end up rolling over and watching if this all comes to pass. But it's going to cheapen and dilute the experience that they've been selling, which even from a pure commericial perspective seems like a dumb unforced error. 

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1 hour ago, lomaxgrUK said:

I am sorry to say, but as @Oregon Duckseluded to earlier - it's just got American prints all over it. There isn't anything they won't squeeze money out of, regardless of any emotional implications like atmosphere in a ground.

Not that I disagree - the Henry's, Kroenke's, and Glazer's are parasites. But Florentino Perez has been the ringleader of this effort from the start, and it lets people like him, Daniel Levy, and the Agnelli family off the hook to pretend this is purely some outside attack. Americans don't have a monopoly on greed. 

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1 minute ago, SalvadorsDeli said:

Not that I disagree - the Henry's, Kroenke's, and Glazer's are parasites. But Florentino Perez has been the ringleader of this effort from the start, and it lets people like him, Daniel Levy, and the Agnelli family off the hook to pretend this is purely some outside attack. Americans don't have a monopoly on greed. 

Very fair. Was more the franchising concept, but you are absolutely right.

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20 minutes ago, SalvadorsDeli said:

 Agnelli family 

Arguably the worst out of the bunch. That family are born and bred generations of Juventus fans from Turin. They've seen and stuck with them on bad times.....having to fight up 2 or 3 leagues should be fresh in their minds.

A joke. 

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6 minutes ago, PARROTHEAD said:

 

The footballing economy has spun out of control over the past 10-15 years because FIFA/UEFA/EPL/etc. invited the oligarchs in with no strings attached and now the other big clubs are over-extending themselves trying to keep up with bottomless money pits at Man City/Chelsea/PSG. Which is why it's especially funny that PSG is trying to hold themselves up as some guardian of footballing tradition, and City and Chelsea are leaking left and right that they didn't really want to join the Super League. Well of course not, they're the only clubs that don't operate in a world where there are real stakes. Everything that is happening right now is a direct result of their financial doping. 

The Super League is an awful solution to that issue but it's a real problem regardless, and I hope if the Super League does fall apart that people keep that same energy for the fight to introduce some semblance of financial parity to the game. The current model is simply unsustainable. 

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