Week 15: Dead Men Tell No Tales: Philadelphia Eagles @ New York Giants

[Acgott]

Just now, Shockey1979 said:

So close... and FG blocked lol

The bubbly remains on ice

[Acgott]

So close but best for the future. Damage has been done to the Eagles already anyway

[Shockwave]

Phew... close one. Played with alot of heart today but glad for the L. Eagles going to one and done anyway

[bzane]

Whew! Not sure if I wanted them to win- just to get a win- or lose, and hold onto that #2 pick. Wonderful effort, though, and what a game by Eli (Manning, that is). 

	C/ATT	YDS	AVG	TD	INT	SACKS	RTG
Eli Manning	37/57	434	7.6	3	1	1-5	98.1

Wonder how that guy who kept howling for Geno Smith feels now?

 

[Shockwave]

Couple of things...

Yes Eli had a great day yesterday. He was on target hitting guys in stride and that allowed playmakers like Shepard and King to rack up some impressive YAC yardage. But.. and there is always a but.. that version of Eli is just too infrequent these days. It was nice to see him out there slinging and it proves he can still play at a high level at times. I just don't think he can do it consistently anymore. Yesterday was an outlier to his norm over the last 2 seasons.

[bzane]

8 minutes ago, Shockey1979 said:

Couple of things...

Yes Eli had a great day yesterday. He was on target hitting guys in stride and that allowed playmakers like Shepard and King to rack up some impressive YAC yardage. But.. and there is always a but.. that version of Eli is just too infrequent these days. It was nice to see him out there slinging and it proves he can still play at a high level at times. I just don't think he can do it consistently anymore. Yesterday was an outlier to his norm over the last 2 seasons.

@Shockey1979-all kidding aside, I tend to agree with you. It's time to be developing Eli's (Eli Manning's) replacement. And the Giants right now stand to have the second pick overall in the 2018 draft, which has interesting QB's. So the conventional wisdom would be to draft Sam Darnold or Josh Rosen with that pick. Yet, they also need to upgrade their O-line. Whether it's Eli, or Davis Webb, or Darnold/Rosen quarterbacking, he's going to have a hard time of it with shaky pass-pro and no push in the running game. This is not a strong year for offensive tackles- that McGlinchey/Connor Williams/Whoever Else group sort of reminds me of Anthony Castonzo and Gabe Carimi in 2011. So there's a tall order: get a young, potential-franchise QB, and improve the O-line. I sometimes think the Giants ought to trade down for multiple picks, and draft Quenton Nelson with a later first- better to draft an All-Pro-possible guard than a mediocre tackle- and whomever of Baker Mayfield or Lamar Jackson or Josh Allen they like best. But I do agree, emphatically, that Eli is past his prime and the Giants must be looking for a successor.

[mattbags2313]

39 minutes ago, bzane said:

@Shockey1979-all kidding aside, I tend to agree with you. It's time to be developing Eli's (Eli Manning's) replacement. And the Giants right now stand to have the second pick overall in the 2018 draft, which has interesting QB's. So the conventional wisdom would be to draft Sam Darnold or Josh Rosen with that pick. Yet, they also need to upgrade their O-line. Whether it's Eli, or Davis Webb, or Darnold/Rosen quarterbacking, he's going to have a hard time of it with shaky pass-pro and no push in the running game. This is not a strong year for offensive tackles- that McGlinchey/Connor Williams/Whoever Else group sort of reminds me of Anthony Castonzo and Gabe Carimi in 2011. So there's a tall order: get a young, potential-franchise QB, and improve the O-line. I sometimes think the Giants ought to trade down for multiple picks, and draft Quenton Nelson with a later first- better to draft an All-Pro-possible guard than a mediocre tackle- and whomever of Baker Mayfield or Lamar Jackson or Josh Allen they like best. But I do agree, emphatically, that Eli is past his prime and the Giants must be looking for a successor.

Baker baker baker. I absolutely love him. Lamar is solid too. I’ll go deeper into these guys when we get a draft thread going but I’ll tell you now if we draft josh Allen......oh man will I go nuts 

[Kip Smithers]

1 hour ago, bzane said:

@Shockey1979-all kidding aside, I tend to agree with you. It's time to be developing Eli's (Eli Manning's) replacement. And the Giants right now stand to have the second pick overall in the 2018 draft, which has interesting QB's. So the conventional wisdom would be to draft Sam Darnold or Josh Rosen with that pick. Yet, they also need to upgrade their O-line. Whether it's Eli, or Davis Webb, or Darnold/Rosen quarterbacking, he's going to have a hard time of it with shaky pass-pro and no push in the running game. This is not a strong year for offensive tackles- that McGlinchey/Connor Williams/Whoever Else group sort of reminds me of Anthony Castonzo and Gabe Carimi in 2011. So there's a tall order: get a young, potential-franchise QB, and improve the O-line. I sometimes think the Giants ought to trade down for multiple picks, and draft Quenton Nelson with a later first- better to draft an All-Pro-possible guard than a mediocre tackle- and whomever of Baker Mayfield or Lamar Jackson or Josh Allen they like best. But I do agree, emphatically, that Eli is past his prime and the Giants must be looking for a successor.

I’ve always maintained that we trade down. Hopefully a team drafts trades up to draft one of these QBs. 

Eli played well last week also. And was even better this week. The offense has been in nice rhythm, which is a far cry from what we have witnessed these past two years. Difference these past two weeks is that we have actually two viable weapons that doesn’t put stress on these practice squad receivers. 

[mattbags2313]

1 hour ago, Kip Smithers said:

I’ve always maintained that we trade down. Hopefully a team drafts trades up to draft one of these QBs. 

Eli played well last week also. And was even better this week. The offense has been in nice rhythm, which is a far cry from what we have witnessed these past two years. Difference these past two weeks is that we have actually two viable weapons that doesn’t put stress on these practice squad receivers. 

also another huge difference, a man named ben mcadoo has nothing to do with the offense anymore.

 

and we still need to draft a QB this high. Regardless of this game, a new era is beginning. Yes it can start with Eli grooming a young QB, but chances are we arent picking top 3 next year. Or the year after. We need to draft for the future and take a QB. New coach, new GM, new hand picked QB. 

I will gladly trade back though if it was for drafting baker. If we trade back to draft any other position Ill lose it

[Kip Smithers]

7 hours ago, mattbags2313 said:

also another huge difference, a man named ben mcadoo has nothing to do with the offense anymore.

 

and we still need to draft a QB this high. Regardless of this game, a new era is beginning. Yes it can start with Eli grooming a young QB, but chances are we arent picking top 3 next year. Or the year after. We need to draft for the future and take a QB. New coach, new GM, new hand picked QB. 

I will gladly trade back though if it was for drafting baker. If we trade back to draft any other position Ill lose it

I agree we need to take a QB high either this year or next year. I’m also fine with trading down to get BPA. Doesn’t have to  be for a QB. I typically like my first round picks to be instant impact players. That guard from ND is not a bad option. We could then move Pugh to RT.

as for Baker Mayfield, nah. Don’t want an undersized QB, who plays in that offense, that conference  and who isn’t even that good of an athlete. No thank you.

[mattbags2313]

18 hours ago, Kip Smithers said:

I agree we need to take a QB high either this year or next year. I’m also fine with trading down to get BPA. Doesn’t have to  be for a QB. I typically like my first round picks to be instant impact players. That guard from ND is not a bad option. We could then move Pugh to RT.

as for Baker Mayfield, nah. Don’t want an undersized QB, who plays in that offense, that conference  and who isn’t even that good of an athlete. No thank you.

at face value I understand your point about Baker. He is going to be great. He has the arm of Drew Brees and mobility of russell wilson. Also in this new generation of QBs, height isnt that big a deal. Look at brees, look at wilson, look at dak, look at aaron rodgers. Baker is 6'1, inch shorter than rodgers. He isnt even that short. Majority of NFL qbs are between 6'2 and 6'4. As for conference, what conference really plays defense outside of SEC (who almost never produces QBs) and a few ACC teams. Big 10 same as ACC, few of the top teams (Michigan, Wisconsin, MSU, Ohio state), but do you want any of those QBs? O'korn? Barrett? Hornibrook? Look at the other options at the top of the draft. Darnold and Rose, Pac-12, they probably play the worst defenses in the country. Also Pac-12 is notorious for producing busts at QB. You cant look at QBs and base  them off conference anymore. No one plays defense. Look at Baker's individual games. He ripped up Ohio state's defense for 500 yards  which is loaded with NFL, on the road nonetheless. He destroyed TCU twice,another top defense this year, and they play in the Big 12. And if you want to dig deeper find a QB that you can say you like where he plays and the competition he faces. Lamar Jackson? no. Mason Rudolph? no. Josh Allen? no.

Also the guy is a gamer and I love that. He loves football and he loves to win. I dont want Rosen, hes a prima-prdonna, huge "me me me me" guy. Love Darnold a lot. His team and coaches just suck. 

Baker isnt a spread QB, all his traits make him a first round/top 10 pick, and fit the bill of a pro-style offense in this generation of QBs. Unfortunately the sit back pocket passers are becoming a thing of the past.  He is extremely athletic (not sure why you say he isnt he literally looks like a better russell wilson when hes running around and makes ridiculous throws on the run), he has a great arm makes throws 50-60 in the air with almost no effort, very accurate making all throws at all levels,  and intangibles are off the charts. I really want to know how you can say "isnt that good of an athlete"

I have never been more confident in a player. I think he is going to be great. I know he is going to be great. The biggest weakness of his as you pointed out is where he plays. No one says a peep about any aspect of his game. Thats a good thing.  Nothing about his QB play gets criticized. That being said he isnt a perfect prospect, but his attitude, arm, athletic ability, and football IQ sells me

"Pro Football Focus has graded Mayfield as its best NFL quarterback prospect for the past two years. Mayfield, per its tracking, has made the lowest percentage of missed throws and grades at an elite level on accuracy on deep throws."

 

 

watch that and tell me he isnt athletic. He does that on a gamely basis.

 

[Kip Smithers]

I said he isn’t THAT athletic and he isn’t close to Russell Wilson’s level in terms of athleticism. He’s not as athletic as he looks. I think NFL athletes will show that. 

My problem isn’t the fact he’s plays in the big 12. My issue that this conference is just filled with high power offenses where receivers are running wide open on a regular basis, where he has clean pockets a lot of the times and never really has to make tight window throws. No way he is 6’1’. They tend to list players higher than they really are in college. I’d be surprise if he is any taller than 6ft. That’s a problem. If you have all the time he has where you have time to scan the field then yeah you sure as heck are gonna look accurate.

 

[mattbags2313]

2 hours ago, Kip Smithers said:

I said he isn’t THAT athletic and he isn’t close to Russell Wilson’s level in terms of athleticism. He’s not as athletic as he looks. I think NFL athletes will show that. 

My problem isn’t the fact he’s plays in the big 12. My issue that this conference is just filled with high power offenses where receivers are running wide open on a regular basis, where he has clean pockets a lot of the times and never really has to make tight window throws. No way he is 6’1’. They tend to list players higher than they really are in college. I’d be surprise if he is any taller than 6ft. That’s a problem. If you have all the time he has where you have time to scan the field then yeah you sure as heck are gonna look accurate.

 

but name a top prospect that doesnt have that issue. All college football consistent of his high powered offense. Rosen is going to be a top 2 pick and his case is worse than  bakers. You arent drafting the offense he played in, you are drafting the player.Why do you think Darnold is still going to be a top 2 pick after the sub-par year he had based on what was expected. He was supposed to light the world on fire this year, and that didnt happen at all. Yet he will go top 2 because scouts see talent in him as a player, regardless of USC being garbage ruining him this year. Baker has the tools to fit a pro-style offense, and in today's NFL what really is a pro-style offense anymore. If you look around the league, all the offenses are adjusting to fit the new generation QB. As for his height I dont put much stock in it, he really is not that short. Even if he is 6 foot flat, if he can make plays in doesnt matter. He def isnt shorter than 6 foot. Height in the NFL at QB isnt valued like it used to be. Especially in his case where its boarder line. They dont overstate height that much, if that was the case why is Rodgers only listed at 6'2? Baker is 6 flat at minimum. Lastly if you go on his instagram there is a recent picture of him standing next to mark andrews in street clothes and he is at most 2 inches shorter than andrews. Andrews is listed at 6'5

If you are going to base our next qb off what offense he comes from we will never have another quarterback. All the top guys come from these high powered offenses, they have the most opportunity to showcase themselves.  Why do you think certain teams like bama for example literally never produce QBs? 

As for athleticism, for a QB he is extremely athletic. Ive watched him outrun DBs on RPOs before. Now if you compare him to a RB, yeah he isnt that athletic. But if you go down the line of current NFL qbs and toss him in, he 100% ranks inside the top 10 in terms of athleticism alone easily. I  dont want a guy that is cam newton type athletic, cause they tend to run more which leads to injuries. I want a happy medium between wilson and rodgers. Where you can move around the pocket and improvise a throw, take off if needed, and have a few plays that are designed runs just to keep a defense honest. I dont want a QB thats going to have 100 rushing yards per game. And thats another aspect of his game thats very comparable to wilson. They both have great judgement on when to use their legs. I'm clearly a huge baker homer, I've been watching him before he was even a sooner. Man, lemme tell you. When I saw him go to Ohio state, shred that defense in a comeback win I was absolutely in love. I said the same thing about Watson last year after he shocked Bama. I really wanted watson in blue. He was just such a winner in college, and thats how I look at baker baker playmaker. We will see what happens in the college football playoff but I have a strong feeling his stock in going to sky rocket after its said and done. But athleticism aside, his football IQ, mechanics, accuracy, and arms strength are all great. And I def hear you on your point where "he has all day to throw so obviously he looks accurate" it makes complete sense. However I have seen him make some ridiculous throws in windows that dont even look like they are there. again you cant fault him for where he plays because then you have to do that for jackson, mason, darnold, and rosen. And in years past you can do the same for almost every player. Wentz played a pro-style offense but played against absolute zero competition. But he had the talent, he had the foundation to be an NFL QB. 

All of their teams have faults you can point out that can hurt a players draft stock, but look at the player himself. What does he do well. 

 

 

 

[bzane]

@Kip Smithers @matt_bags2313 Dag, this is one great discussion, you guys! Good points from both of you. I have to admit that, right now, I'm hoping the Giants trade down to one of those quarterback-desperate teams, getting two firsts and a second, in return; I'd rather get the mobile QB later (Mayfield, Jackson), and use the higher first on (sorry, I'm going to do it again) Quenton Nelson.

[mattbags2313]

16 minutes ago, bzane said:

@Kip Smithers @matt_bags2313 Dag, this is one great discussion, you guys! Good points from both of you. I have to admit that, right now, I'm hoping the Giants trade down to one of those quarterback-desperate teams, getting two firsts and a second, in return; I'd rather get the mobile QB later (Mayfield, Jackson), and use the higher first on (sorry, I'm going to do it again) Quenton Nelson.

I prefer that as well. I dont think much separates baker from darnold in terms of stocking a few draft picks in a trade down.