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Predict the Patriots' future post-Tom Brady


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If Belichek remains post-Brady, they'll remain a threat then, but it's difficult to say how much of a threat. We don't really have much of a history of them drafting and grooming a high end prospect at QB, so it's hard to say what they could do, and even then it's a crap shoot half the time. And the QB that replaced Brady will set a bit of a ceiling and floor for the team, as that position does for everyone.

If Belichek retires as well, then it's completely a question mark. Coaching hires are about as much of a crap shoot as drafted QBs, so they could stay the course as the Pats or get closer to the Browns. It's pretty much impossible to know IMO. Maybe you get it right like the 49ers with Young and Seifert, or maybe you go the way of the Packers post-Lombardi and Starr and spend a decade or two on failed coaches and QBs until you get it right again. Who knows? Kind of futile to the debate how their future will go when we don't even know whose future it will be.

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52 minutes ago, HorizontoZenith said:

Success is tied to Belichick, not Brady.  Once Belichick goes, it will depend on how they handle the draft and coaches they hire. 

One of the sillier things Ive read on here....and thats saying alot.  

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Just now, FourThreeMafia said:

One of the sillier things Ive read on here....and thats saying alot.  

Won 10 games without Brady in 2008.  Has had a top 10 scoring defense in all but 4 years since 2003.  Never finished below 19th in points allowed.  Won a Super Bowl with a first year starting second year 6th round backup QB.  Is the head coach and the GM of the team.  Went 3-1 when Brady was suspended.  Quit being a **** and instead of crapping on other opinions, back up your own or keep it to yourself.  I'm frequently a **** on this site, but one thing I don't do is insult an opinion without backing up my own.  This kind of crap statement is the worst thing about this site.  I can take criticism of my opinions if somebody has the ability or brain to back up the criticism. 

 

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3 hours ago, Jakuvious said:

Only one of them won any for the Pats though.

This is just a very unrepresentative way of describing the narrative. Parcells won his superbowls before becoming the Pats head coach, so it isn't like Kraft did some excellent scouting work for head coaches there or anything. And I would use that to prop Kraft up given that Parcells left in large part due to disagreements with Kraft. And Carroll was fired by Kraft before going on to find success elsewhere. So those aren't really successful hires in the sense that Belichek was.

Which missed the point entirely, which is that Kraft regardless of who won has had nothing but high quality coaches since his tenure as an owner started. 

Since Kraft got the team within a two years they made their second Super Bowl appearance in their history. 5 years after that they made their 2nd when Belichick was basically an unproven failure from Cleveland that nobody but Kraft really believed in. So two of the 3 coaches under Kraft took the Patriots to Super Bowls within Kraft's first 7 years as an owner. And the third who didn't went on to be the most successful coach this decade outside of the coach Kraft got rid of him for. 

The point is, the trajectory was already going upward long before Belichick assumed the head coaching position and before Brady was on the team. Belichick and Brady were the factors that set it over the top and got it to that dynasty level, but Kraft set the foundation and had already been righting the ship and been a great evaluator of personnel to lead the team. 

The difference is post Brady and post Belichick, Kraft will be working with a much more established franchise with a lineage of success that's resume rivals virtually every NFL team and will have a more solid foundation than the lower tier franchise that Kraft took over. Will it be a dynasty after they are gone, no probably not unless they are incredibly fortunate. Will they be a bottom barrel franchise again, no probably not. They'll likely be similar to what the Cowboys in the 80's or Steelers in the 80's and 90's were. 

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1 hour ago, HorizontoZenith said:

Won 10 games without Brady in 2008.  Has had a top 10 scoring defense in all but 4 years since 2003.  Never finished below 19th in points allowed.  Won a Super Bowl with a first year starting second year 6th round backup QB.  Is the head coach and the GM of the team.  Went 3-1 when Brady was suspended.  Quit being a **** and instead of crapping on other opinions, back up your own or keep it to yourself.  I'm frequently a **** on this site, but one thing I don't do is insult an opinion without backing up my own.  This kind of crap statement is the worst thing about this site.  I can take criticism of my opinions if somebody has the ability or brain to back up the criticism. 

 

Again this point has been debated so many times and it's kind ridiculous but Cassell had the benefit of playing on the best built Patriot team of the Brady and Belichick era, he had the benefit of going against arguably the weakest schedule of the 2000's and significantly weaker with less playoff quality opponents than the team that went 16-0 the year before with Brady, they still underperformed enough to the point where a team that was 1-15 the previous year was able to jump them in the rankings to get a playoff spot, Matt Cassell himself played much better in KC and went on to get double digits wins there without the backing of Belichick and the same core cast as a team that went 16-0. It's not a good argument, it's devoid of all context, that particular team was 15-1 or 16-0 team with Brady that year and CLEAR Super Bowl favorites. Any other year besides 2007 and 2008 and Cassel would not have been able to do what he did. 

Jury is still out on Garopollo who just started winning games on what was a bottom 3 team in the league until he started at the QB position for them. Until we see how good he is going forward, you can't really evaluate that. The truth is he could just end up being a really good QB. Brissett went 1-1 and the one loss included the first shutout in years against a team Brady later annihilated later in the year. And even then you still have to come to the point where Brady went 11-1 and then followed that up with a Super Bowl win with the same parts. There's no reason to think Garopollo or Brissett would have followed up that 4 game stretch going 11-1 and then won the Super Bowl. 

There's a lot of context you have to leave out. I mean it would be really easy for me to say the clear best QB Belichick had on the Patriots besides Brady was Drew Bledsoe who was considered a bonafide franchise QB who had led his team to a Super Bowl and was capable of taking over a game. Belichick went 5-11 with him then went 0-2 with him until he got Brady who went 11-3 and then went on to win the Super Bowl. And it would be very easy for me to say there is no reason to think Belichick wins that Super Bowl if Bledsoe doesn't get hurt because even as green as he was, Brady at the time still had better instincts and was a solid improvement over a legitimate franchise QB with a Super Bowl appearance on his resume. 

And quite frankly a lot of what Belichick is able to do is because he knows offensively he has a guy who is able to consistently play at a very high level regardless of how many personnel and scheme changes you make to him or the quality of receiver talent. That's a massive benefit to him. 

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11 hours ago, biletnikoff said:

this proves you dont even know sports history extensively

Well a large part of that is that mid dynasty Art Modell became the owner and was a lot more meddlesome than the previous one and actively fired one of the greatest coaches in NFL history. It's no secret that the back half of the Brown's run when Modell came in was less successful than the first one. And even then they were still a quality franchise until the mid 70's. Even in the 80's they were in the playoff's most of the time. And really the current Brown's really can't be compared to the old Browns. The current Brown's are basically an expansion team that got to keep the name and history and they have never been a good team since.

Meanwhile the Patriots have Kraft who is going to be succeeded by his son who is already actively part of the team leadership and working closely with his father anyways.

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28 minutes ago, lancerman said:

when Belichick was basically an unproven failure from Cleveland that nobody but Kraft really believed in.

1. You mean the same BB that was Parcells Defensive Coordinator who shocked the world by shutting down the "unstoppable" Buffalo Bills in the Super Bowl and won another ring?

2. You mean the same BB that won a playoff game in Cleveland in 1994, was beloved by the fans, and then subsequently fired by the RAVENS after the team was announced to move after the 1995 season? So much for the "unproven failure" part.

3. You mean the same BB that was hired by the Jets and then backed out of that contract to go to the Patriots? So much for the "nobody but Kraft believed in" part.

But you keep sticking to that narrative you enjoy spinning so much.

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17 minutes ago, MWil23 said:

1. You mean the same BB that was Parcells Defensive Coordinator who shocked the world by shutting down the "unstoppable" Buffalo Bills in the Super Bowl and won another ring?

2. You mean the same BB that won a playoff game in Cleveland in 1994, was beloved by the fans, and then subsequently fired by the RAVENS after the team was announced to move after the 1995 season? So much for the "unproven failure" part.

3. You mean the same BB that was hired by the Jets and then backed out of that contract to go to the Patriots? So much for the "nobody but Kraft believed in" part.

But you keep sticking to that narrative you enjoy spinning so much.

1. Lot's of people stopped the unstoppable Bills. Parcell's gets credit for those Super Bowls unless you want to credit Romeo Crennel with shocking the world by stopping the Greatest Show on Turf. By the way Romeo Crennel HOF coach there. Josh McDaniels was offensive coordinator. He was the offensive coordinator for what many people consider the best offense ever. Tanked as a head coach. And in that case you can say his HC was actually a defensive guy so he had more autonomy on the offense.

2. This shows an astounding lack of knowledge of Browns history. The Cleveland Browns pre going to Baltimore were not the trash franchise that people like to pretend they were when they like to go "ZOMG Bill Belichick got Cleveland a playoff win". They won plenty of playoff games and made the playoffs plenty of times prior. 

IN FACT: In the Super Bowl era prior to Bill Belichick becoming the Browns head coach the team as a whole only had 7 seasons with losing records. Belichick by himself had 4. So Belichick accounted for a third of the Brown's losing seasons in the Super Bowl era prior to Art Modell moving. In fact aside from two transitional coaches (Forest Gregg with two seasons, and Jim Shofner with one season) Belichick actually had the WORST win percentage in Browns's history of any longterm coach in the Super Bowl era. So this idea that because Belichick won a playoff game he was some super hero who did the impossible and was beloved in Cleveland is revisionist AT BEST. He was the worst long term coach in Brown's history when he left. By a substantial margin too. And the fans hated him for dropping Bernie Kosar. 

So I have NO CLUE where this idea that getting one playoff win in Cleveland (who had a playoff win literally two years before Belichick got there) is some feat that should be defiied in the face of 4 losing records and the worst longterm win percentage in franchise history up to that point. Yeah if you compare them to what is essentially a completely different team that started from scratch because everyone moved to Baltimore that was under completely different leadership that got the benefit of keeping an old name, then yeah. But that's not the team Belichick coached. 

3. Bill Parcell's set up Belichick as his successor on the Jets. And that owner was basically out the door anyways. Belichick was largely regarded as a great defensive coordinator who failed as a head a coach. Kraft was the only owner in the league who was willing to give up a draft pick at the time. Ironically, Art Modell was telling Kraft that hiring Belichick would be the biggest mistake in his life. And just for posterity sake this would be at a time where Modell just successfully moved his franchise to Baltimore and was going to win the Super Bowl the following year.

 

It takes an astonishing lack of history to get to t he point you got to.

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13 hours ago, biletnikoff said:

They'll be like the Cleveland  Browns after their dynasty. Bottom of the barrel and mid range at best for the next 50 years. 

No, that'll be the Packers.  The Patriots will still be okay, although I suspect that they'll hover around .500 like most other franchises...they'll have years where they go 10-6 and they'll have years where they'll go 6-10...kind of like the Raymond Berry era.  

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