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***SPOILERS*** Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi SPOILER Thread


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Just now, Broncofan said:

It's crazy how polarizing this movie is.  It's like one half of moviegoers who have real problems with the movie don't recognize the need to be fresh, original, and not necessarily be tied to full SW canon.    On the other hand, those that enjoyed the movie don't see the the problems in storytelling and consistency with some basic key SW principles (balance between light and dark not really apparent at the end, Luke being the GOAT yet deciding to kill Ben as the first option because he saw darkness, and throwing away Snoke/Phasma/etc.).    

Really, it's like most debates in FF - only 2 views hold, no in-between (and this discussion isn't just happening here, to be fair to FF).

I can firmly say that I'm sitting right in the middle with this film. I loved parts and hated some parts just as much. 

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The more I see people criticize the movie for how Luke handled Kylo Ren as an apprentice, the more I realize how intended and spot on the portrayal of Luke was in this film in terms of the message Riann Johnson wanted to send.

Someone here mentioned it before, and I think it's absolutely true. We all know Luke should be better than that, because he spent the last 2 movies turning Vader to the light side. It's who he is! He sees light where everyone else sees darkness. However in this movie he makes a mistake, and in a moment his first instinct is to kill Kylo, but then regrets it, and it ends up backfiring and we get Kylo. 

The message is that no matter how perfect you view someone as, everyone makes mistakes. Luke made a mistake and therefore became a broken man because of it. I don't think it was some glaring omission or a giant oversight, I think it was the intended message that our "perfect" hero went against everything he stood for a split second, and that decision completely changed who he was as a person from there on out.

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2 minutes ago, Darth Pees said:

The more I see people criticize the movie for how Luke handled Kylo Ren as an apprentice, the more I realize how intended and spot on the portrayal of Luke was in this film in terms of the message Riann Johnson wanted to send.

Someone here mentioned it before, and I think it's absolutely true. We all know Luke should be better than that, because he spent the last 2 movies turning Vader to the light side. It's who he is! He sees light where everyone else sees darkness. However in this movie he makes a mistake, and in a moment his first instinct is to kill Kylo, but then regrets it, and it ends up backfiring and we get Kylo. 

The message is that no matter how perfect you view someone as, everyone makes mistakes. Luke made a mistake and therefore became a broken man because of it. I don't think it was some glaring omission or a giant oversight, I think it was the intended message that our "perfect" hero went against everything he stood for a split second, and that decision completely changed who he was as a person from there on out.

The message is pretty clear; however, It still feels like an underwhelming scene that portrays a very rash reaction. Everything thing else aside, Luke is an adult and the kid is his nephew. Firing up a lightsaber is a bizarre reaction. If they had some more exposition before this scene it would have been much more believable. As it stands we just have some reference to Kylo's growing darkness and then Luke decided to kill him. 

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19 minutes ago, sunnygsm said:

The message is pretty clear; however, It still feels like an underwhelming scene that portrays a very rash reaction. Everything thing else aside, Luke is an adult and the kid is his nephew. Firing up a lightsaber is a bizarre reaction. If they had some more exposition before this scene it would have been much more believable. As it stands we just have some reference to Kylo's growing darkness and then Luke decided to kill him. 

A lot of what you're explaining here, to me, seems like the point. It was a rash decision. It was completely out of character. It does betray everything about Luke's character - which is why it completely destroys him and haunts him until his death.

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31 minutes ago, Darth Pees said:

A lot of what you're explaining here, to me, seems like the point. It was a rash decision. It was completely out of character. It does betray everything about Luke's character - which is why it completely destroys him and haunts him until his death.

There's rash and then there's outright stupid. This was the latter and it just seems lazy, it comes off as contrived and undermines the message. 

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1 hour ago, Broncofan said:

It's crazy how polarizing this movie is.  It's like one half of moviegoers who have real problems with the movie don't recognize the need to be fresh, original, and not necessarily be tied to full SW canon.    On the other hand, those that enjoyed the movie don't see the the problems in storytelling and consistency with some basic key SW principles (balance between light and dark not really apparent at the end, Luke being the GOAT yet deciding to kill Ben as the first option because he saw darkness, and throwing away Snoke/Phasma/etc.).    

Really, it's like most debates in FF - only 2 views hold, no in-between (and this discussion isn't just happening here, to be fair to FF).

That’s not really all that accurate though. Because I haven’t seen anybody claim this is a perfect movie bereft of any issues. It’s that any issues claimed aren’t really that problematic and the ones people are tending to focus on (like Luke fleetingly considering killing Solo) aren’t issues at all.

Luke never said he thought killing Solo was the first option. That’s the only episode you get a glimpse of. We have no idea how long he fretted over the problem, how he tried to work woth him, etc. People assume he was all, “Whelp he’s bad. Gotta lop of his head.” There’s no indication that that is how it actually went down.

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36 minutes ago, Darth Pees said:

How does it undermine the message that no matter how you view your heroes, they are flawed just like everyone else?

Because the message is based on shaky/poorly established origins/motives. The action of Luke going to kill Kylo is the catalyst for Kylo becoming evil and Luke going into hiding. It makes the story less believable and lessens the impact of subsequent events. 

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9 minutes ago, sunnygsm said:

Because the message is based on shaky/poorly established origins/motives. The action of Luke going to kill Kylo is the catalyst for Kylo becoming evil and Luke going into hiding. It makes the story less believable and lessens the impact of subsequent events. 

The message, IMO, is actually based on what we're seeing right now in reality with how many celebrities or people we admire being exposed as monsters, or making mistakes. Or just the general message that no matter how perfect someone may seem, everyone is human and prone to a mistake, and one split second decision can ruin a lifetime of things you've worked for.

I don't think it makes anything less believable. It's not like Star Wars has ever been a model of consistent story-telling.

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6 hours ago, sunnygsm said:

I can firmly say that I'm sitting right in the middle with this film. I loved parts and hated some parts just as much. 

I've been pretty harsh on this movie due to the people trying to excuse objective flaws that exist throughout this film, but I can't stress enough that I don't hate this movie. I think it's fine. But there are undoubtedly clear flaws in it that need to be addressed.

It's funny to me though that the people that don't like this movie are the ones being called fanboys for "things not going the way they wanted to" when the people that loved this movie are overlooking the numerous flaws because they're actual fanboys lol 

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6 hours ago, Darth Pees said:

A lot of what you're explaining here, to me, seems like the point. It was a rash decision. It was completely out of character. It does betray everything about Luke's character - which is why it completely destroys him and haunts him until his death.

Plus, in the movie Luke himself said he was smelling himself too much.  He started believing his own hype which led to his mistake in dealing with Ben.  

I loved TLJ but had some problems with it, mainly the Poe storyline.  That's the only parts of the movie I'll skip over on once it's released for home viewing.  And once the story moved to Crait for some reason I'm not crazy about.  I am indifferent to the Finn part.  Didn't like it but didn't hate it either. The Force segments of the story is what has me hooked.  Kylo/Ben and Rey's interactions is the driving force for not just the movie but the entire trilogy.  It's the only reason I have any intrest in Episode IX and like the current run so much.

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5 hours ago, Darth Pees said:

The message, IMO, is actually based on what we're seeing right now in reality with how many celebrities or people we admire being exposed as monsters, or making mistakes. Or just the general message that no matter how perfect someone may seem, everyone is human and prone to a mistake, and one split second decision can ruin a lifetime of things you've worked for.

I don't think it makes anything less believable. It's not like Star Wars has ever been a model of consistent story-telling.

We don't know celebrities at all, so I don't agree with that comparison. We know Luke and his character. 

I don't like this argument of "Star Wars/OT never did this so it's fine". Is holding it to higher standards off limits because of it's past?

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6 hours ago, sunnygsm said:

Because the message is based on shaky/poorly established origins/motives. The action of Luke going to kill Kylo is the catalyst for Kylo becoming evil and Luke going into hiding. It makes the story less believable and lessens the impact of subsequent events. 

You’re overlooking one very important piece- Luke, who’s clearly the most powerful Jedi or Sith EVER as demonstrated in this film, was burdened with the future seeing how horribly evil Ben would become.  We don’t know how evil Ben already was at this point. We have no idea how long Luke had these visions or just how horrendous they were.  It’s the whole time travel/kill Hitler scenario.    

Ppl are acting like Ben was a sweet, innocent boy when Luke was going thru this.  Obviously, Ben was already far down the dark path as indicated by him immediately slaughtering his fellow students who didn’t obey him.  He didn’t just suddenly transform into this evil kid. Just like Luke didn’t plan all along to kill him.  It was never the first option as BroncosFan claims. It was a moment of weakness where he thought the ends might justify the means.  But he didn’t go thru with it.

Maybe Luke almost killing him set Ben off but Kylo Ren was inescapable.  

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Perhaps, then again Yoda also said "Difficult to see. Always in motion is the future". Luke's visions may have been totally wrong and his mistake therefore created Kylo. One would expect someone like Luke to be a bit wiser. It's an inexcusable mistake given the circumstances. 

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